Thunder boxes, are they good or bad?

[billconner]

In reply to Glenn, it depends a lot on where you paddle and of course your style. I like camping, try to make camp by 2:00 or so, enjoy camp cooking and eating. Plus easier during day to stop at an empty site where there is a landing and thunderbox.

 

[Midwest Firecraft]

Absolute necessity in heavily used areas like the BWCA. I wish they would install them along the Saint Croix National Scenic Waterway. You can't dig a cat hole on any of the islands without hitting toilet paper. They want you to pack it out but that will never happen with the crowd that uses that river. Simple solution to just add a fiberglass pit toilet.

 

[Alasgun]

Maybe you folks should lobby for a lottery system? Up here if you intend to use a Forrest service cabin next year you apply for the exact dates this month!

If you want to drive all the way into Denali park next year you apply for a permit as well!

 

[Midwest Firecraft]

Maybe you folks should lobby for a lottery system? Up here if you intend to use a Forrest service cabin next year you apply for the exact dates this month!

There already is in a sense. On January 25th you have about 30 seconds to book the more popular entry points. Not a lottery, but there are only so many people allowed to enter per day.

 

[Odyssey]

Regardless "how little time" one spends in a campsite, a campsite is precisely where one has the greatest impact on the environment, intended or not. These tripping pinch points are also where we can ameliorate these negative impacts. Either with LNT principles and/or with reducing these impacts with toilets and firepits. Personally I dislike seeing all traces of man besides the portage trail, but believe that these campsite luxuries are as much a protection for nature from man as they are a crutch for man in nature. Just my 2 cents.

 

[lowangle al]

So, about 10 years ago, I experimented a few times with myself in the summer. I just went on the ground in a remote place and left it there to see what would happen over time. (Not any TP, of course.) It was always completely gone within a week. Bugs and bacteria, I assume. I'm sure the experiment would turn out differently in different climates, seasons, and certainly with higher use. I wouldn't invite my neighborhood for such "visits" on my land

Thanks for not posting pictures. Good experiment though.

 

[Gamma1214]

Thanks for not posting pictures.

I always thought it was "pictures or it didn't happen" but I suppose (maybe just this once), we can stipulate that the witness is credible.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

So, about 10 years ago, I experimented a few times with myself in the summer. I just went on the ground in a remote place and left it there to see what would happen over time. (Not any TP, of course.) It was always completely gone within a week. Bugs and bacteria, I assume. I'm sure the experiment would turn out differently in different climates, seasons, and certainly with higher use. I wouldn't invite my neighborhood for such "visits" on my land.

I've also had two deer corpses on my land. One I buried with my backhoe. The other, before I had a backhoe, was completely assimilated within a couple of weeks. Even the bones eventually disappeared somehow.

Thanks for not posting pictures. Good experiment though.

I always thought it was "pictures or it didn't happen" but I suppose (maybe just this once), we can stipulate that the witness is credible.

If you don't want to do my exact experiment, just watch your dog's droppings in the woods disappear in a few days in the summer, assuming you don't pick them up.

If you want some pictorial evidence, here is a time lapse video of a deer corpse entirely decomposing in five days:

I suspect a turd can decompose in a matter of hours in a hot climate. My experience in many places is that TP flowers are the primary problem in many high use campsites, not actual feces itself in the summer.

I've only day tripped in the BWCA and Algonquin because when I was there I only had my outrigger canoe, which I did portage on my shoulder. It was very crowded on the entry trails with sign-in wait lists. I don't like places like that and have rarely canoe camped in them. I like to go where people aren't. I suppose that's why I've never seen those government fiberglass outdoor toilets.

 

[Aslowhand]

Slightly off topic:
It can be dangerous to use a thunder box....

 

[Midwest Firecraft]

I've only day tripped in the BWCA and Algonquin because when I was there I only had my outrigger canoe, which I did portage on my shoulder. It was very crowded on the entry trails with sign-in wait lists. I don't like places like that and have rarely canoe camped in them. I like to go where people aren't. I suppose that's why I've never seen those government fiberglass outdoor toilets.

I would imagine we would all like to trip where people aren't, but that is getting harder and harder to do. At 1 million acres there is plenty of wilderness and isolation in the BWCA, you just have to put a full days travel in.

 

[yknpdlr]

I've never experienced the awful gray plasticky looking thing that Bill posted in the second photo. In the Adirondacks it is either a wood sided outhouse, or a blocky shape pressure treated heavy wood thunderbox over a deep hole, usually set up in a spot well away from the campsite itself and with a nice view and a self closing lid. More and more it is becoming the latter boxy open type of facility replacing the larger outhouse structure.

I am part of a volunteer crew team called lean2rescue, where, under the auspices and guidance of the NYSDEC we build new, replace, repair, dismantle and/or move to an improved site leanto shelters in the Adirondacks. Most times with leantos that have an outhouse, we will repair or replace the outhouse as well, after digging a fresh new hole to place it over and filling in the old hole. With most of those that have wood thunderboxes, the boxes are so new that they do not need maintenance yet.

of course the biggest problem is people continually thinking they can just throw their garbage in the outhouse hole with materials that will never degrade, or worse will simply fill up the hole completely toward the top, making it unusable for its intended purpose.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I would imagine we would all like to trip where people aren't, but that is getting harder and harder to do.

Yes, that makes sense, MF. Folks have to paddle where it's convenient for them to paddle. I would love to go into the interior of the BWCA, but it's too far a trip for me.

It also makes sense to have workable and sanitary toilets of some kind in campsites that will be used almost every day for six months or so every year, assuming there is financing to do so. I guess I feel fortunate not to have used such campsites very much, even if I've missed out on some good paddling places.

Finally, in an earlier post you mentioned islands. Those and other shallow soil places can be good candidates to have a full pack-it-out requirement. Some paddlers may not like to use bucket or wag bag toilets, but that's the most sanitary and environmentally friendly solution in some places. Here is a definitive thread on how to make a wag bag toilet:

Wag Bag Toilet System (long and scatological)

A reprise of a previous post that included no photographs. Friends are planning a Green River trip and, instead of renting a heavy diamond plate groover, are interested in carrying an efficient, permit-acceptable wag bag toilet system. For folks who have never used a wag bag system, here goes...

www.canoetripping.net

 

[Midwest Firecraft]

I personally bring a 5 gallon bucket with built in toilet seat lined with a garbage bag. Unfortunately very few people are willing to do it, and they islands have become a giant latrine.

 

[Seeker]

I'm not a fan. I'd rather "go" where no man has gone before.

I can see the need in heavily traveled areas, as I'm sure they reduce the number of toilet paper piles you find at campsites, but I'm sure they can get pretty gross and unusable too.

In areas that have them, is it unethical not to use them, considering proper waste disposal is used?

I watched a Kevin Callan video from Algonquin where he stepped in human feces, twice, while setting up his tent at two different campsites, so I guess there is a need.

I think you answered your own question.

I squat on top of them, just like they're a hole in the ground. Not hanging my "parts" where they could get bit by a spider... (I got tagged by a black widow once, in the hand, in Louisiana... not a fun experience).
If there's one in the campsite I'm at, I open it immediately, so it dries out, and if it's raining, that cleans it off some. I won't use the outhouse/enclosed ones... strictly talking about the open thunderboxes.

I once accompanied a friend, who happened to be a summer ranger on Low's Lake (Adirondack Park) for a half day as she made her rounds of campsites... the rangers and volunteers who maintain campsites can tell you all about why. I learned a lot that day. If they exist, they're there for a reason.

 

[yellowcanoe]

I’m not sure where I remember these from, but I have visited toilets that used blue barrels with a lid, and the lid had a diamond shape cut out of it.
As someone who prefers traditional gear, I felt this was a fitting use for those fugly things.

That would be La Verendrye.. But those were green.. And the lid was very uncomfortable.. Encouraged rapid use.
I am a fan of thunderboxes but on Maine islands there is no soil to build them on. And in the desert the accumulation just petrifies.. In both places you must pack EVERYTHING out. The old practice of defecating in shallow water is out.. What the tide taketh away the tide sometimes returneth. A second visit with excrement is not my cuppa.
On Lake Superior I was very gladdened to see Thunderboxes. Campsites on the Ontario coast are not plentiful and its not easy to bush one out if one does not exist. Nor would it be non impactful if everyone bushed out a site. We mostly use kkkayaks so being intimate with your poop is not fun.. ( You must be intimate with it on the Green River for as long as your trip lasts)

Oh as for disgusting outhouses.. yes they exist but the ones on the AT in the 100 mile wilderness on the LLBean maintained section are works of art and maintained regularly. Most Maine campsites have outhouses and so far I have not met an unsavory one. Nothing like the smell of a newly constructed one.
Not a fan of those plastic grey gobby looking things.. UGH.

Lets not extend the discussion to IBS/colitis.

 

[scoutergriz]

That would be La Verendrye.. But those were green.. And the lid was very uncomfortable.. Encouraged rapid use.
I am a fan of thunderboxes but on Maine islands there is no soil to build them on. And in the desert the accumulation just petrifies.. In both places you must pack EVERYTHING out. The old practice of defecating in shallow water is out.. What the tide taketh away the tide sometimes returneth. A second visit with excrement is not my cuppa.
On Lake Superior I was very gladdened to see Thunderboxes. Campsites on the Ontario coast are not plentiful and its not easy to bush one out if one does not exist. Nor would it be non impactful if everyone bushed out a site. We mostly use kkkayaks so being intimate with your poop is not fun.. ( You must be intimate with it on the Green River for as long as your trip lasts)

Oh as for disgusting outhouses.. yes they exist but the ones on the AT in the 100 mile wilderness on the LLBean maintained section are works of art and maintained regularly. Most Maine campsites have outhouses and so far I have not met an unsavory one. Nothing like the smell of a newly constructed one.
Not a fan of those plastic grey gobby looking things.. UGH.

Lets not extend the discussion to IBS/colitis.

actually I've seen plenty of blue barrels used, usually on club or friends- maintained crown land routes in central- northern Ontario. blue barrels are cheap and plentiful, and can often be gotten as a donation from certain shippers.

 

[yellowcanoe]

I am sure there are but I don't do much on Crown Land.. It is expensive and it used to be a hassle to get a permit ( Canadians just can go free). Service Ontario never had them or in some offices had no idea what they were. Now nearing 80 I am not interested in portaging.. three bionic joints.

Now that Crown Land Permits are available on line it is much less hassle.

 

[Jatfomike]

I have become a fan of the thunder boxes especially in heavily traveled areas such as the BWCA. The Forest Service does a good job of moving/replacing every few years depending on how heavily used the route is. They also do a good job of placement.....far enough from camp that there is no smell. Occasionally, you find one that has a pretty good view (see photo below), of course it was also a pretty good climb......one that you wouldn't want to do in the dark! I also learned years ago that before unloading the canoe and setting up camp, check the thunder box to make sure it hasn't been torn apart by a bear! Theres always that idiot that throws fish carcasses or left over food down the box because they are too lazy/ignorant to dispose of properly.

Mike

 

[Gamma1214]

I sincerely hope the view from that thunderbox was of a neighboring lake! If not, that's a pretty serious elevation change from the water to the head. (and I've always thought automotive engineers were the most sadistic people on earth)

 

[Jatfomike]

Nope, that was the lake we camped on! Thankfully didn’t have to do the climb after dark or in a heavy downpour…..I took my binos up once and after taking care of business, scanned the lake and far shoreline for wildlife.

Mike