Opinions wanted: OT RX 16' Penobscot vs. OT RX 15' Camper

[Glenn MacGrady]

I'd like some opinions and thoughts or experience as to whether an Old Town Royalex 16' Penobscot or OT RX 15' Camper -- both the same price, condition and weight -- would be the better canoe for the following uses:

- Novice 110 lb. mother and 9 year old daughter in flatwater Florida. Daughter may want to horse around in the canoe like mother did when she was a kid, but mother now might be concerned about tipping over in gator water. They have no interest in speed and don't know what efficiency is.

- Experienced grandpa, who doesn't care much about speed either but does like efficiency, occasionally visits and paddles the canoe solo. Also wants to take granddaughter on day trips on narrow, twisty Florida springs and creeks, and eventually on canoe camping trips on long Florida rivers like the Suwannee, Peace and Santa Fe.

- Grandpa wants to teach mother and daughter tandem and solo heeled freestyle turns and other moves.

Here are the specs for the two canoes:

Penobscot 16 RX: 16-2L, 34W, 33WL, 21BH, 13.75D, 58lbs, 1100cap

Camper 15 RX: 14-10L, 36W, 35.5WL, 22BH, 13.5D, 57lbs, 820cap

Yeah, a lightweight composite canoe would be better but they're out of budget for this first canoe. I've paddled the Penobscot both solo and tandem and have my own opinion of it, but have never paddled the Camper (15 or 16), so I really would appreciate any thoughts on these two different hull shapes for the intended uses.

 

[Guest]

Grandpa (uh, I mean Glenn?), we owned and paddled both those Old Towns, on day paddles and weeklong trips, for years. The Camper 15 (aka Pathfinder) in bow backwards tandem use with a child bowman for 10 years and a 16’ Penobscot (albeit later soloized) now for 20+.

Other than the dimensional differences you listed above the biggest disparity is the bottom shape; the Penobscot has a shallow arch, the Camper is quite flat bottomed. I know you are familiar with bottom shapes and hull characteristics, but FWIW the Camper/Pathfinder is all primary stability, it is hard to get it leaned over, and at a certain point “over” suddenly means all the way over.

For the “Novice 110 lb. mother and 9 year old daughter in flatwater Florida” I’d pick the Camper/Pathfinder every time. To wit, I saw a friend (Kathy) and young daughter (Quinn) pull off a move in a Pathfinder that probably wouldn’t have been possible in a Penobscot; Quinn fell out of the backwards bow seat (she was actually sitting on the deck plate!) and into a swamp in gator country. Kathy panicked, stood up, dashed forward in the canoe and pulled the Quinn out of the drink before she became a snack. In a Penobscot 16 that might have resulted in two swimmers.

Note as well that the Penobscot 16 usually had a thwart immediately behind the bow seat which would need to be removed/relocated for bow-backwards use, while the 15 Camper/Pathfinder does not.

The only thing the Penobscot would have over the Camper would be “Grandpa wants to teach mother and daughter tandem and solo heeled freestyle turns and other moves”. Heeled freestyle turns in a flat bottomed Camper would be fun to watch.

Lastly, if the Camper 15 has white vinyl gunwales it pre-dates the name change to Pathfinder and I would not buy it; those early white vinyl OT gunwales lacked UV inhibitors, and every white vinyl gunwaled Old Town I have worked on needed the brittle gunwales replaced.

 

[gumpus]

I used to have a Penobscot and my friend had a Camper that I used to paddle occasionally (not sure if it was a 15 or 16). I agree with Mike that the Camper is better for everything you want to do except heeling. In my experience the Camper is also surprisingly efficient and is also highly maneuverable but it flat-turns without heeling. So you could do a lot of teaching in it except for the heeling part. Both are fine boats I think and both solo nicely.

 

[goonstroke]

...
Note as well that the Penobscot 16 usually had a thwart immediately behind the bow seat which would need to be removed/relocated for bow-backwards use, while the 15 Camper/Pathfinder does not.
...

The Penobscot 16's I've seen (mine and a number of others) just came with a yoke and a stern thwart, so nothing behind the bow seat. It's usually the Penobscot 17's that have the extra thwart and are not very solo friendly out of the box.

I love the aesthetic of those creem colored gunwhales on vintage OT plastic boats! Too bad they always seem to have a few chunks missing ...

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Thanks for the responses. Unfortunately, by the time I read them, the Camper, which had been my favorite, had been sold. I've never really been a fan of the OT Penobscot as either a tandem (too initially tender) or solo (too stiff) canoe -- contrary, I suppose, to a 40 year majority opinion of that ever-popular canoe. Maybe old MR Explorer guys can never be OT Penobscot guys.

Why, oh why, are there people other than me looking at the same kinds of canoes? I'm pretty good at researching most things, but am a novice at where to look for used canoes on the confusing and multiple interweb monopolies. It's hard to tell when some of the canoes have been listed and whether they're even still for sale.

Many of the "sellers", who rarely give contact info in the ads, unlike the universal practice in newspaper classifieds in the golden times of yore, don't respond at all when I contact them using the anonymous and klunky private messaging systems. Nothing, nada, no response. Why would that be? All I do is give my name, phone number, email address and express serious interest in traveling to look at their canoes. To say nothing about the crappy or minimalist pictures some sellers post along with absurd prices. I wish I had a nickel for every piece of junk I've seen advertised in "like new" condition.

I may just spring for a new Ranger Otter for mom and daughter. It's a reasonably priced Kevlar canoe with a Soric core that has been designed to be halfway between a MR Explorer and Malecite, made in a one-man shop, which I've always favored, in no-sales-tax New Hampshire.

 

[gumpus]

That's funny, or at least I think there's humor here if you look for it. The flipside is that a young man I met through this site seems to be able to find a used canoe that excites me just about every friggin day even though I'm perfectly content with my little mini-fleet.

Hey goonstroke, not sure about the P16 gunwales you're talking about but my Royalex P16 had mahogany gunwales...but I think mine must have been around 100 years old.

 

[Guest]

The Penobscot 16's I've seen (mine and a number of others) just came with a yoke and a stern thwart, so nothing behind the bow seat.

The Penobscot 16’s that came with a factory third seat all had thwarts immediately behind the bow.

- Experienced grandpa. . . .occasionally visits and paddles the canoe solo.

- Grandpa wants to teach mother and daughter tandem and solo heeled freestyle turns and other moves.

With those as stated criteria I didn’t know if Glenn was looking at a three seater.

 

[ppine]

Penobscot.

 

[Guest]

Penobscot.

Ppine, today, for me paddling solo, backwards from the bow or soloized with a “center” seat, Penobscot 16 all the way.

Tandem, with myself and a novice adult bowman, or for novice adult and child use. . . . .maybe not the Penobscot. If forced to choose, for Florida flatwater, I might pick the Camper 15/Pathfinder. Or better, a 16’ Camper.

After 10 years of use I traded our Camper 16 to a young family man, straight up for his nearly new, unscratched, float bag equipped Mohawk Odyssey. Still love paddling the Odyssey.

Our Pathfinder was a cosmetic blem, a demo canoe bought new but cheap at the end of the Jersey paddle show, when OT didn’t want to haul it back to Maine.

The Pathfinder was only used canoe I have sold for nearly what I paid. First caller was a guy who absolutely had to have a Pathfinder, nothing else would do; his father and brother each had one they used for fishing. I had barely said “Hello” when he offered me $100 more than I had listed. I threw in a couple paddles and a PFD. He drove away like he stole it and we were both happy.

If I could choose a commonplace used canoe for tandem purposes, or bow backward with kid, I’d pick a 16’ Explorer. And hope it was kevlar so it didn’t weigh 80lbs.

 

[ppine]

Penobscots have always been down river boats.
Campers are short and squat made for people to take a day paddle at the cottage.

 

[Guest]

Ah, dammit McCrea, THINK!

Glenn, when we bought our Camper and Pathfinder friends Kathy & Ben bought the same two canoes at the same cheap end-of-show gig, one of their was a cosmetic blem as well. We two-family/four canoe tripped together for the next 10 years.

Last I heard Kathy called me asking what I thought they were worth. They have been stored unused behind some shrubs against a fence for the last decade, so I’m sure all the brightwork is shot to heck, but they are aluminum insert vinyl gunwaled and RX undamaged last I saw.

IIRC their Pathfinder is teal, a color that would suit you. Not sure about the Camper, red or green I think. They may not even have skid plates. SCORE!

They are only an hour away; I can ask how much she wants, and go take a look. Some parts from Ed’s or Essex, a saw, drill and screwdriver, bit of vanish for the cut ends and they might look like new.

For your daughter and granddaughter in Florida I think a Pathfinder would be an excellent choice. Those canoes got us around.

Little Cove, a double site on Lobster Lake. By far the finest two-family, four young kid site we have ever found.

EK_0040 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Third Machias. Day two of being windbound Ben pulled a complete Sunday New York Times from a dry bag. Complete, even the lingerie ads. God bless that man.

EK_0039 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Umbrella sailing Chesuncook

EK_0011 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

They are only an hour away; I can ask how much she wants, and go take a look.

Sure, give them a call about condition and price, but at this point don't spend your time traveling. I'm cogitating about other options.

 

[Guest]

Campers are short and squat made for people to take a day paddle at the cottage.

I’m glad I didn’t know that at the time. Our Camper (and Pathfinder) went down the WB Penobscot and across Chesuncook twice. Down the Colorado below Hoover dam. Down the Buffalo. Down Chincoteague Bay behind Assateague many times. Down the Edisto several times. Up Third Machias. Down the Susquehanna multiple times. Down the Suwannee more than once. All bow backwards with a kid up front and a load of gear.

Down the Sante Fe, Ichetucknee, Juniper, Withlacoochee, St. Johns and a dozen other Florida rivers and creeks on day trips.

Camper - 16’, 36” max width, 13” deep, 59 lbs. Not a speedster, but a wonderful family canoe.

Pathinder – 14’ 10”, 36 max width, 13 ½” deep, 57lbs. Ditto above.

 

[Mason]

Yep--paddled the Allagash in my brother's 14 aluminum (not Grumman!) with a high school bud. We had fun. Didn't know nuthin.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Drove 180 miles round trip today into the Catskill Mountains to buy a Ranger Otter Canoe for my daughter and granddaughter -- 16'-1" x 35.5", E glass/Kevlar composite, supposedly 52 pounds. DougD, Steve'n Idaho and Robin have had positive things to day about that canoe.

It was not in the condition represented, I didn't like the looks, but mostly it seemed so darn big and heavy. I didn't buy it. The weight issue has also probably convinced me not to buy a 60+ pound Chestnut Chum or a 50+ pound Stewart River Ami -- for anyone.

To top it off, I left my new 25' tape measure in the woman's garage.

Oh, well, how many sunny, 70 degree days are there in November for a nice drive in the Catskills. I did buy a chocolate bar at the world-renowned Fruition Chocolate Works in Shokan, NY, where my parents and brother lived and are buried. All in all, an educational, enjoyable, wallet-saving and emotional trip.

I'm now in search of a sub-45 pound, 15' tandem.

 

[Guest]

Glenn, look what followed me home.

PB130059 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

1995 Old Town Pathfinder (nee Camper 15). For only $1000.

Oops, I added an extra zero. $100. And I had to force that on them when Kathy wasn’t looking, sneaking it to Ben, who insisted I stop counting twenties at five.

Buried behind the backyard shrubs, on the ground, unpaddled for too many years. But it is an aluminum insert vinyl gunwale canoe, so the gunwales, and rest of the RX hull, are fine.

The brightwork, as expected, not so much. The yoke is end blackened shot and falling out, the seats are not far behind (to heck with cane), and I am certain the machine screws, even short as they are, are all bent as well.

PB140067 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

PB140069 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

It took as long to wash the inside of the hull as the outside. Every time I hose blasted the inwale undersides MORE dirt came out. Spiders and crickets too. At least I hope that was dirt; we family paddled those canoe while the kids were still in diapers.

PB140073 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Flipping the Pathfinder over to wash the outside even the leaf litter piled atop stayed had stuck after hour’s drive at highway speeds, and I can’t stand to work on dirty canoes. Or even have them around waiting for shop time.

PB140071 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

The outside needed DougD’s Magic Mix; 50% white vinegar/50% Dawn, no water. Mere soapy water wasn’t cutting it. And some serious elbow grease with a scrubbie. Three times, with vigor.

PB140074 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

There are a scattering of little sap drips, but those need a 10F day and they will pop off with the tap of a flat head screwdriver. Otherwise the hull is in great condition; no dents or even deep scratches to speak of. Inside vinyl likewise.

PB140076 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Oh no, it has heavy, ugly, unnecessary, useless skid plates, hori-bibble kevlar felt skid plates. If I was, say, working on this canoe for someone I would clean them up, tape off the uneven edges and paint them with a mix of G/flex, graphite powder and black pigment.

Yours if you want it Glenn. I’ll need to make some money for my shop labor, so I figure $101. The easiest fix would be to simply buy a Complete Repair Package from Ed’s canoe.

https://www.edscanoe.com/corepa.html

A tape measure would be handy for that, so I’ll cut, drill, end varnish and install them for you. Eh, for not you, for your daughter and granddaughter.

Although, you don’t need the carry handles. Or the truss drops; the OEM seat drops are only 1” deep and I can easily DIY those. And there are lighter, better quality seats that would knock off a couple pounds.

Back to the original question.

I'd like some opinions. . . . .

. . . . .for the following uses:

- Novice 110 lb. mother and 9 year old daughter in flatwater Florida. Daughter may want to horse around in the canoe like mother did when she was a kid, but mother now might be concerned about tipping over in gator water. They have no interest in speed and don't know what efficiency is.

- Experienced grandpa, who doesn't care much about speed either but does like efficiency, occasionally visits and paddles the canoe solo. Also wants to take granddaughter on day trips on narrow, twisty Florida springs and creeks, and eventually on canoe camping trips on long Florida rivers like the Suwannee, Peace and Santa Fe.

- Grandpa wants to teach mother and daughter tandem and solo heeled freestyle turns and other moves.

For everything mentioned, except spinning around in circles on edge, drilling holes in a pond, I believe the Pathfinder is the nearly perfect canoe.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Mike, I'm literally unsure of what to say.

I sincerely appreciate your thinking of the fruit of my loins and your generous offer. In addition to my OP specs, however, I related in my last post how I rejected a highly researched five-year old composite canoe in very good shape because I considered 52 pounds too heavy, not only for said fruit but for old grandpa prune too.

. . . 52 pounds. . . .

I didn't buy it. The weight issue has also probably convinced me not to buy a 60+ pound Chestnut Chum or a 50+ pound Stewart River Ami -- for anyone. . . .

I'm now in search of a sub-45 pound, 15' tandem.

So . . . what I'll say and request as a preliminary matter is: Please weigh it.

After that, I'll contact you privately about anything further on my behalf. Garishness not excluded. Thank you.

 

[Guest]

Mike, I'm literally unsure of what to say.

I am not accustomed to Glenn unsure of what to say.

I sincerely appreciate your thinking of the fruit of my loins and your generous offer. In addition to my OP specs, however, I related in my last post how I rejected a highly researched five-year old composite canoe in very good shape because I considered 52 pounds too heavy, not only for said fruit but for old grandpa prune too.

So . . . what I'll say and request as a preliminary matter is: Please weigh it.

After that, I'll contact you privately about anything further on my behalf. Garishness not excluded. Thank you.

I brought the Pathfinder into the shop before the rain hit and weighted it on the hanging shop scale. The good news is that the old (unusable) yoke is at the balance point.

The bad news is that, with seats and yoke and skid plates, it weighs 58lbs. That still makes it one of our lighter canoes.

There are a few ways to knock the weight down. Chiseling/grinding off the stupid kevlar felt skid plates and replacing them with Dynel is one, but I’m not doing that. The teeny drilled dowel drops are only 1 ½” to ¾” long, so there is no weight to be saved there.

The seats however are no doubt heavy. The seat frame rails and struts are massive, 1 ½” x 7/8”, and it would be possible to knock a couple pounds off there. The modern, more slender constructed seat I removed from the Explorer weighted 2lbs 12oz, the better built laminated Conk seat that replaced it weighed 1lb 11oz, so you could lose 2lbs there.

If you and daughter can live with that I promise not to add any geegaws without prior approval. Well, maybe some webbing loop tie downs on the ends of the machine screw hardware, four of those weigh next to nothing; I weighed four of them, less than 1 ounce.

Mull it over and let me know what you decide. No rush I still have a couple weeks of work to do on the FreeFIRE rebuild.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Mull it over and let me know what you decide. No rush I still have a couple weeks of work to do on the FreeFIRE rebuild.

The "no rush" is much longer than that from my end. We won't be traveling anywhere till covid is calmed down by a vaccine or whatever. It already ruined our spring and fall 2020 trips to see our daughter and granddaughter in Florida. Next spring would be the earliest for us to go 30 miles south of York.

Well, no canoe is perfect and the Pathfinder does have its virtues. Ed vs. Conk don't belong in the same brightwork sentence and is a no-brainer to me. Scottish-garish would be my preferred outfitting theme. I'll contact you by secret Highland channels to discuss some initial challenges and details.

 

[Guest]

The "no rush" is much longer than that from my end. We won't be traveling anywhere till covid is calmed down by a vaccine or whatever. It already ruined our spring and fall 2020 trips to see our daughter and granddaughter in Florida. Next spring would be the earliest for us to go 30 miles south of York.

Glenn, no rush works well for me, although cutting, end varnishing and installing two new seats, eight tiny peg drops and one new thwart is a cakewalk. Eh, I’d still like to tape and G/flex-graphite powder-pigment those fugly kevlar skid plates. A couple of ounces tops for years of more durable graphite slipperiness, and a more aesthetically pleasing appearance.

Well, no canoe is perfect and the Pathfinder does have its virtues.

Again, and again and again, for your daughter and granddaughter’s Florida use I think the Pathfinder’s virtues, 14’ 10”, uber-stable flat bottom, no maintenance vinyl gunwales, with existing skid plates so she can drag it over limestone shallows or alligators, are nearly perfect. Is there such a thing as a UL kevlar/carbon flat bottomed 15 footer?

Kathy is not exactly an Amazonian; she is short and slender and handled the Pathfinder with ease. I am not asking a woman her height or weight just for comparison sake.

You, or your daughter, and likely not making long Florida portages with the canoe. Day trip roof racks to water should suffice. Buy her a decent portage cart, a (breakdown?) center hauler so she can load the PFD’s, paddles, spare clothes dry bag, lunch and cooler of 7.5 ABV Pale Ales into the boat and haul it from car to water.

I foresee a Glenn-investigation thread about “portage” carts. Glenn, if you want to know the skinny on lightweight paddle, adult and kid sized for the Pathfinder, just ask; my recommendations will all have a blade at each end of the shaft ;-)

Ed vs. Conk don't belong in the same brightwork sentence and is a no-brainer to me. Scottish-garish would be my preferred outfitting theme. I'll contact you by secret Highland channels to discuss some initial challenges and details.

Ed’s makes fine quality normal seats. Conk makes extraordinary seats. I do not know Conk’s availability, or willingness, to make custom seats. I did write down of the A, B, and C dimensions that Ed’s Canoe Parts requests when ordering to make replacement seats:

A)The distance, measured front to back, between the side rails. For the Pathfinder that inner spread is 7 ¼”.

B)The width of the rails themselves, for drilled hole machine screw fit. Pathfinder 1 ½”

C)Overall length, Pathfinder:
Bow seat 30 ½” minimum
Stern seat 24 ½” minimum

(The hole spacing, center to center, in this case 9”)

I measured each of the shortie drilled dowel drops with a caliper, so I would know which ones went where to install the seats hung flat along the sheerline curve. Stern seat drops, 1 ½” & ¾”, bow seat drops 1 ½” & 1 3/8”. Measured, recorded and thumb tacked to my shop parts bulletin board for future rebuild reference.

On the FreeFIRE rebuild I am using the ends I cut off the laminated Conk seats.

PB120033 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Those laminated ash and butternut cut off scrap makes for elegant peg drops.

I don’t mean to throw Conk under the custom canoe seat-making bus, but his seats, in a relatively plebian RX Pathfinder, would be the epitome of eccentric unicornicity. Especially if I stripped all the vinyl Old Town and Pathfinder lettering off with a heat gun and razor blade. That vinyl lettering and adhesive must weigh at least a gazillionth of an ounce, and knowledgeable paddlers, seeing that exquisitely seated and unidentified canoe might become curious.

Probably not Paul’s actual “Conk” seats, with the flat back rail and contoured front rail; that would preclude early bow-backward paddling and later switching around to bow forward when the grandkid grows bigger. Kids tend to do that ya know; we got 4-5 years bow backwards, and another 4-5 year bow forwards before our sons went into small solo boats.

Flat seats, or double contoured seats, would work better in that eventual switcharoo guise.

Mostly I am very pleased that you have (I think) opted in on the Pathfinder for offspring Florida use, and look forward to seeing photos of Granpoppy attempting to demonstrate freestyle moves in that canoe. Before and after swim photos please. Maybe video!

Seriously, after spending a month refurbishing the FreeFIRE something easy peezy will be a quickie pleasure.