Opinions wanted: OT RX 16' Penobscot vs. OT RX 15' Camper

[Glenn MacGrady]

Mike, I get -- really get -- that the Pathfinder/Camper 15 was a big part of your own family's canoe history, that you are a proponent of it, that you actually think it would be a suitable canoe for Kelly and Emmy and Prune, and that you have been a very impetuous friend.

Royalex is not my first or second choice for flatwater canoeing; composites and wood are. Blunt cutwaters are inelegant, gurgley and noisy. Ugly and heavy skid plates make that worse. Nevertheless, none of these preferences or objections are deal killers. We probably can overcome.

I have my own opinionated opinions the proper seats, thwarts, grab handles, seat webbing, loop webbing, shock cord and other things. This Pathfinder, if it finds a path to me, will look like no other in the multiverse. And it will be Scottish.

I haven't decided anything, but I did buy 57", 51" and 47" inch straight wood paddles today for a grand total of $35. Now I only need a 54" paddle to have a nicely sized set for any hypothetical canoe I might acquire. The guy also had a big wheel cart but it didn't fold up. Probably could still get it for $5.

I'll be in touch.

 

[Guest]

Glenn, please do not feel compelled to settle for the Pathfinder if you think the weight too much, the RX cut water too gurgly and the skid plates unattractive.

If the Pathfinder stays here I’ll install a solo seat, a couple of thwarts in the old seat holes and a strap yoke, all of which I have on hand. Discounting wait time for varnish to dry on the newly cut that is a few hours work at most.

It would lose extra seat & yoke weight in the soloization and perhaps become the lightest canoe we own, making a fine shallow water daytripper.

I remain curious if there is 14-15 foot, flat-bottomed or uber-stable, 40lb composite canoe.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I remain curious if there is 14-15 foot, flat-bottomed or uber-stable, 40lb composite canoe.

I do to, though I did not specify in my OP a need for a flat bottom or uber-stability. I was simply asking about two canoes in near-new condition that were then available fairly close to me, but no longer are.

In my query thread about stand-up-able 15' canoes, we identified the Bell/Colden Starfire, Hemlock Eaglet, Bell Morningstar, Millbrook Souhegan and Coho, a composite or strip Bobs Special, a wood/Ceconite Loon Works Duet, and a wood/Ceconite Stewart River Ami. I'll also throw in Marc Orstein's Harmony, now sold by Savage River in an infused carbon layup in the 28-32 lb. range. All of those are rarely available used and all would cost $3500 to $4500 new. An acceptable Royalex hull with new, premium outfitting for about $300 would trump those numbers in my calculus. Grandpa Prune would then have lots of money left over for his own new and final canoe, which would ultimately be left to his granddaughter too.

 

[Guest]

Mike, I get -- really get -- that the Pathfinder/Camper 15 was a big part of your own family's canoe history, that you are a proponent of it, that you actually think it would be a suitable canoe for Kelly and Emmy and Prune, and that you have been a very impetuous friend.

Glenn, I get -- really get – your qualms about the Pathfinder, and know your feelings about blunt cutwater RX stems, skid plates and, especially in our pruney later years, hull weight. Quite simply, the lighter the canoe the more often it may come off the racks to be paddled.

I recognize that my family, and Kathy & Ben’s family, had some grand adventures with our Campers and Pathfinders. But I am not you, or your daughter. And I am impetuous, sometimes recklessly so.

In my query thread about stand-up-able 15' canoes, we identified the Bell/Colden Starfire, Hemlock Eaglet, Bell Morningstar, Millbrook Souhegan and Coho, a composite or strip Bobs Special, a wood/Ceconite Loon Works Duet, and a wood/Ceconite Stewart River Ami

I have never young kid bow-backwards paddled any of those. Any or all of might work as well, or better, for 110lb adult and child on flatwater Florida adventures.

I obviously do not know your daughter’s sheltered storage availability, or her maintenance reliability. I did see a very nice, well built stripper, once owned by Doug Gibson at BMO, and later by Topher, degrade to uselessness when my friend Dave bought it, took it to Micanopy and never maintained it. He had it stored UV protected under a giant pole barn ex-airplane hanger, and the Florida humidity still killed it with zero maintenance attention.

Grandpa Prune would then have lots of money left over for his own new and final canoe, which would ultimately be left to his granddaughter too.

I can’t speak for Grandpa Prune. If his desire is to have a lightweight (composite) canoe left in Florida, one that he can throw on his shoulders like a young buck when visiting, and 58lbs seems too much, perhaps the Pathfinder is not a suitable solution.

I have moved the Pathfinder onto the outside racks and, come what may, won’t get around to touching it again until after Thanksgiving.

(It was our turn to host 30-35 in my cleaned up, tools removed shop for Thanksgiving. Thank god for Covid-19)

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Mike and I have had a phone call about the used Pathfinder but haven't reached any final decisions. Might as well continue some of the discussion in public..

I can probably accept the weight of ~58 lbs. (on behalf of my small daughter and granddaughter), mainly because a significantly lighter canoe in decent shape would be so expensive, if even findable. My primary remaining objection are the ugly Kevlar felt skid plates. I've found several past posts on various canoe forums where folks say they have successfully chiseled Kevlar skid plates off or ground them down with 50 grit sandpaper on a belt sander or angle grinder. However, Mike is a skid plate expert and has reservations about attempting such surgery.

So, how to reduce the weight? Lighter weight seats is one obvious tactic, but I've now been thinking of eliminating the center portage yoke thwart, which is the only thwart. I doubt this day tripping Florida canoe would ever be solo carried any further than from the car to the water, and it may never be so carried by my daughter or granddaughter. (Maybe by my son-in-law). So what, I ask, is the usefulness of the center yoke thwart?

I'm thinking of eliminating the center yoke thwart and putting a third, narrow-depth seat in the canoe about 8" behind center. That would be much more useful to the three person family and for anyone who wants to paddle it solo from a more centralized position than bow seat backwards. But would three seats provide sufficient lateral structural integrity for a 15' Royalex canoe with aluminum-insert vinyl gunwales? I've never owned a canoe with such gunwales, so I have no empirical opinion.

Then, I would consider putting a strap yoke in the center yoke holes. Here is a thread on strap yoke variations with pictures, to which I've appended a question post today:

https://www.canoetripping.net/forum...ons/diy/74927-strap-yoke-variation#post119205

Any thoughts or opinions on removing skid plates, eliminating the central (and only) thwart, installing a third seat, or using a strap yoke would be appreciated.

 

[Guest]

Glenn, there is a lot to unpack there, and I will do my best to parse, from my boat refurbisher perspective, while trying to remain positive about the Pathfinder as a daughter, granddaughter and visiting prune canoe.

I can probably accept the weight of ~58 lbs. (on behalf of my small daughter and granddaughter), mainly because a significantly lighter canoe in decent shape would be so expensive, if even findable.

The RX Pathfinder is never going to get all that much lighter. At best it might drop a couple pounds with lighter weight seats. So, as is, with two seats, 56lbs or thereabouts.

My primary remaining objection are the ugly Kevlar felt skid plates. I've found several past posts on various canoe forums where folks say they have successfully chiseled Kevlar skid plates off or ground them down with 50 grit sandpaper on a belt sander or angle grinder. However, Mike is a skid plate expert and has reservations about attempting such surgery.

As I expressed in our phone call I don’t just have “reservations”, I ain’t doing it. While I do not recall having had a hand in the installation of those kevlar felt skid plates they were not horribly installed, and are not peeling or lifting other than at the very edge where the old urethane epoxy extends past the felt and is thin. Ben has skills; he rebuilds pianos for a living. Ben, or whoever installed those kevlar felt skid plates, did a decent job of it for what they are.

I suspect that in chiseling off or grinding down those still well-adhered skid plates I would do considerable damage to the vinyl skin, ABS or foam layers, which I would then have to make fair, flush and un-gurgly before covering with Dynel. I do not see significant weight savings there, just a lot of unnecessary dang work.

So, how to reduce the weight? Lighter weight seats is one obvious tactic, but I've now been thinking of eliminating the center portage yoke thwart, which is the only thwart. I doubt this day tripping Florida canoe would ever be solo carried any further than from the car to the water, and it may never be so carried by my daughter or granddaughter. (Maybe by my son-in-law). So what, I ask, is the usefulness of the center yoke thwart?

Uh, stiffening the hull at the sheerline. Without the yoke there is nothing crosswise except the hung seats. I am not a between-lakes-canoe carrier, but dang, I still want a yoke, or at least a strap yoke, just to get the canoe off the storage racks, onto the car, off the car and down to the water. And vice versa on the way home.

I'm thinking of eliminating the center yoke thwart and putting a third, narrow-depth seat in the canoe about 8" behind center. That would be much more useful to the three person family and for anyone who wants to paddle it solo from a more centralized position than bow seat backwards. But would three seats provide sufficient lateral structural integrity for a 15' Royalex canoe with aluminum-insert vinyl gunwales? I've never owned a canoe with such gunwales, so I have no empirical opinion.

Answering the question first, yes a third seat, especially if hung at narrow depth or with more stout drops, would provide sufficient lateral stiffness with aluminum insert vinyl gunwales. But a third seat isn’t going to make the canoe any lighter.

Glenn, I will be blunt about my principal concerns with the Pathfinder. In our conversation you referred to the daughter canoe as a “Legacy Gift”, and had concerns about not just the RX weight but the 25 year age, the bottom scratches, the sap drips and the kevlar skid plates, and mentioned that your daughter does not have roof racks for her vehicles.

My fear, while I am more than willing (to an extent) to refurbish the canoe for your daughter & granddaughter, is that the Pathfinder will find a new home in Florida, be used a few times and be sold cheaply on Craigslist to a Budweiser swilling fisherman.

I will, as discussed, bring the Pathfinder into the shop when I have space, take better photos of the large vinyl deck plates/molded carry handles, bottom scratches, sap drips, peeling Old Town/Pathfinder logos and the detested skid plates, and measure the depth of the seats from the floor and the distance between seats and yoke as requested.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Some unpacking of the unpacking.

Whatever canoe I "give" to my family will be used. Both of their houses are on lakes, one also being a half mile from the Intracoastal Waterway and Pellicer Creek. They would never dispose of the canoe while I'm alive because it will legally be "mine" -- their one and only father and grandfather -- who doesn't visit enough and whose canoe it will be to paddle when I visit. After I'm gone, I have no problem requesting that you should have the right of first refusal to reacquire the canoe for no charge if they then want to dispose of it. I hope this settles the Bud swilling angler concern.

As to weight, a pound or two of outfitting either way is not going to make a practical difference. Nevertheless, I doubt that an 8" Conk laminated center kneeling seat would weigh much more than a removed ash portage thwart, and may even weigh less. Even with a strap thwart the total difference would likely be negligible.

As to structure, I've seen many canoes with three seats and no thwarts, both composite canoes (albeit with wooden gunwales) and Royalex canoes (in particular, OT Penobscots 16 and Dagger Reflections 16). So, I'm not overly concerned about this issue.

I can get new Old Town decals if they seem desirable.

My final question was the one I posted in the strap thwart thread and its reprise. I don't expect my daughter or granddaughter to solo lift this canoe onto their shoulders with any type of portage thwart, but my son-in-law and I might want to do so. I was asking about the ability or amenability of a strap thwart to be gripped and flipped, efficiently and safely, the way a wood thwart can be for solo portage lift ups and set downs. I know others here than Mike have installed strap thwarts, so I'm hoping to get as many perspectives as possible.

 

[Guest]

I will, as discussed, bring the Pathfinder into the shop when I have space, take better photos of the large vinyl deck plates/molded carry handles, bottom scratches, sap drips, peeling Old Town/Pathfinder logos and the detested skid plates, and measure the depth of the seats from the floor and the distance between seats and yoke as requested.

Glenn, specific measurements and better photos of the Pathfinder. Measurements:

Rear edge of stern seat back to big vinyl deck plate with molded carry handle, 17”

PB270001 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Front edge of bow seat up to big vinyl deck plate with molded carry handle, 35”

PB270002 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Front of stern seat edge, measured forward to carry yoke, 41 ½”. Back of bow seat frame to the carry yoke, 23”.

Stern seat height 10 ½” from bottom of seat to floor, bow seat height 9”

PB270004 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

More, better photos; large vinyl deck plates

PB270003 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Classic recurved stems, classic fugly kevlar skid plates

PB270006 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

PB270010 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Indelible sap drips.

I had tried to scrub the sap drips off the hull with only minor success. When we had a sub-freezing morning I tried tapping them off with a flat head screwdriver, but none of them are tall enough for that action. By rough count 80-some sap drips on the bow, 20 or 30 on the stern.

PB270007 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

While I had the Pathfinder in the shop I commenced with some needed repairs. One of my sons suggested a novel solution to hide the sap drips, but I ran out of materials.

PB280012 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

The ugly kevlar felt skid plates were more of a challenge. I wanted something in earth tones, green and brown, something softer, at least more natural in appearance and quieter when scraping across a rock. I had just the thing, and cut a piece off one vestibule mat.

PB280016 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Turning the Pathfinder right side up there were a number of issues to deal with. As expected the yoke is rotted at both ends and the machine screws were bent.

PB280018 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

I wanted a fine hardwood replacement yoke, and some belt and suspenders double hardware at the ends. A walk in the woods and some Zip-ties and long pipe cleaners did the trick.

PB280020 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Both seats are problematic. The one with the intact but suspect cane needed only some topside reinforcement, and I found something not only pre-cut, but with drain holes already drilled.

PB280023 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

The other seat, with the busted cane, needed more help. Channeling some Red Green (and grey) that was an easy fix

PB280025 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

The painter bungee was a joke, 1/8” thick to begin with and now stretched out, but it is there, and already knotted below the deck plate holes, so I saved it and incorporated a large binder clip on that floppy bungee to hold the painter line secure.

PB280028 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Guess I need to find some stainless steel binder clips.

There are some things I want on every canoe; knee bumpers and a foot brace. I found the ideal knee braces already band saw cut in a box labeled “Large/thick minicel scrap”. Those will do without any frou-frou Dragonskin shaping.

PB280030 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

The canoe still needs a foot brace for the stern paddler. I used the last of my (preferred) Wenonah adjustable foot braces in a past rebuild, and even resorted to using one of the old-school drilled L-bracket and wing nut jobs. I have no foot brace bars remaining in shop stock.

I do not know the best foot brace location for the next paddler’s inseam, so it needs to be something easily adjustable. Some move-able trim weight for day paddles would be helpful too, and it needs to be at the correct height, say 5” off the floor.

Again turning to what I had available in the shop the solution was quickly obvious.

PB280031 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Perfect bracing height, and probably enough beverages to get me through an easy day paddle.

I am a huge fan of spray covers, partial bow-stern covers on solo canoes, and belly covers on tandems. For a tandem belly cover a gigantic 4’ x 6’ industrial trash cart bag, and more Red Green action.

PB280036 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

(Ok, that one actually works in a pinch, if you have a giant trash bag and dust tape to spare)

The Old Town and Pathfinder logos have seen better days and need to be heat gun peeled off. The refurbished Pathfinder is a very user friendly canoe, and could end up with the offspring of a friend. It needs a friendly re-name.

What’s another word for “friend” to replace the aged OT and Pathfinder vinyl letters?

PB280034 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

If there are other similarly refined outfitting touches I have neglected please let me know, I need to take the Comaradeout of the shop soon to make room.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Mike, accepting the ancient aphorism that it's the thought that counts, I gratefully accept your gracious thoughts, your generous efforts and your Hellzapoppin' humor.

That said, I respectfully cannot accept this particular canoe at any price.

Upon further research since my OP, I've realized that a plastic Pathfinder/Camper 15 not a canoe sufficiently compatible with my preferred performance characteristics and aesthetic ideals. And, naturally, what I want to keep alive and pass on to my descendants are my canoeing preferences and ideals.

So, do unto Comrade canoe as thou wouldst do unto thyself, sans thoughts of me. With all due respect to beer drinkers and fisherman -- neither of which anyone in my family is -- I think the Comrade would be an excellent performance craft for a Budweiser swilling fisherman. Perhaps you could Dual Lock or Dynel it to the next one who passes by.

Sincere thanks again. If perchance come next March the virus is herded, I'm alive, I can travel, and my wallet or ideals have shrunk, maybe I'll have a different perspective on the Comrade. But neither of us should bank on that, and you should do what makes most sense for McCrea Boatworx & Tavern in the meantime.

 

[Guest]

Upon further research since my OP, I've realized that a plastic Pathfinder/Camper 15 not a canoe sufficiently compatible with my preferred performance characteristics and aesthetic ideals. And, naturally, what I want to keep alive and pass on to my descendants are my canoeing preferences and ideals.

Glenn, I concur. Other than the flat bottom primary stability and the price the Pathfinder does not meet many performance characteristics or aesthetic ideals, and it was never going to get much lighter.

I will diddle with it this winter and, despite the fact that neither I nor anyone in my family being a fisherperson, may outfit it in part as a somewhat dedicated fishing canoe, a use for which the Pathfinder would shine.

I will confess, the absolutely hideous “repairs and outfitting” provided a great deal of shop fun and devious laughter. Few of those ideas were mine; the bandaids, fake grass skid plates and lichen covered log yoke, even the rusty binder clip, were suggestions from friends and family, who likewise were laughing the whole time.

None of that crap is actually well attached, the bent shingle nails holding the plywood over the seat and not through the wood, the knee bumpers and Comrade logo are attached with double sided tape and the IPA case is sadly an empty box.

Junky jokes removed the Pathfinder can go back outside until the time comes to do some actual outfitting and repair work.

Canoe Tripping folks, let keep our eyes open for a reasonably lightweight used composite tandem in good condition near Connecticut, and help a brutha (daughter, granddaughter) out. We should be able to turn something up by March.

Edit: It’s all fun and games until some idiot sticks a bunch of bandaids on a canoe.

The gauze part tore free easily. The adhesive sides that remained would not come off; I had to spray them with 91% alcohol, let it sit and scrape the gooey adhesive off with a razor knife. Let that be a lesson to me.

I did learn something else, perhaps more useful; if I sprayed the sap drips with that alcohol and let it sit I could scrape them off with the razor knife as well. Only a hundred sap drips to go.

 

[gumpus]

I remain curious if there is 14-15 foot, flat-bottomed or uber-stable, 40lb composite canoe.

I had a Hemlock Eaglet, I think it was the prettiest boat I ever owned and built as well or better than any composite canoe. It's extremely stable. If you check the specs it's 15'7" and the Eaglet III (with 3 seats) is 40 pounds in Dave's lightest lay-up. I think it even comes with Conk seats.

 

[Dagger]

No idea how I missed this thread. Love the mods, Mike!!!

 

[Guest]

No idea how I missed this thread. Love the mods, Mike!!!

The real modifications are currently underway. The skid plates have been cleaned up and improved and the sap drips removed. New center seat & short drops, standard thwarts and oversized utility thwart cut, drilled and dry test fitted, now getting their third coat of spar urethane.

Once I have another couple coats of spar on the new brightwork I can move on to minicel knee bumpers, foot brace, D-rings, strap yoke and etc.

Had I simply been replacing the tandem seats and yoke I’d have been done in a day; soloized, with all new brightwork and custom outfitting, takes a little longer.

For the purposes I have in mind, gentle river day boat, weekend tripper, maybe some fishing canoe customization, I think the Pathfinder will be an agreeable companion.