​Cheat Sheet of Used Canoes for solo downriver CL II daytrips

[Guest]

Help a brother (in-law) out. My BIL has a couple canoes I repaired and gave him years ago, an old Shenandoah/Blue Hole beast and a Dagger Reflection 16. He wants something solo and “I prefer to sit on a seat than straddle a saddle. I also don’t feel like this is a time in my life to go after class 3 or 4. (getting old)”.

He has become a good paddler and a better poler, but wants something shorter/lighter/more nimble for CL II downriver daytrips. Definitely used ($800 limit), probably Royalex and will put float bags in it. He is around 5’10”, 160 lbs and in good condition (bikes and XC skies)

I’m trying to assemble a “cheat sheet” that he can keep handy when searching Craigslist for such a canoe.
NOTE: We don’t see many used Prospector hulls in the mid-Atlantic region, nor much of anything from Canada or the west coast.

The candidate list so far:

Bell Canoe:
RX Yellowstone Solo (or Wildfire, same boat). 14’ and 44 lbs.
Bell Rockstar. 15’ 6” and 49 lbs (you’ll never find one used).

Dagger:
Legend 15 set up as a solo. 15’ and 61 lbs.

Mad River:
Guide (Freedom Solo, same boat). 14’ 6” and 58 lbs. MRC made a sturdy composite version that was 14’ 9” and 43 lbs.
Legend 15. Mad River picked up the Legend after Dagger folded.
Intrigue (or Horizon 15), 15’ 2” and 56 lbs.

Millbrook:
Millbrook only makes composite canoes, but they specialize in a heavy-duty layup for WW paddlers. These are all “tandems”, but lots of folks order or alter them as solos.
AC/DC (16’ 2”, 45 lbs)
Souhehan (15’ 4”, 44 lbs)
Coho (15’ 6”, 46 lbs).
The latter two are excellent poling boats.

Mohawk:
Odyssey 14 (14’ 2”, 49 lbs)

Old Town:
Cascade (14’ 10”, 59 lbs).
Soloized Appalachian (16’ and heavy at 67 lbs).
Penobscot 15 (15’, 49 lbs) if you could find one.
Soloized Penobscot 16 (16’ 2”, 58 lbs)

Wenonah:
Argosy (14’ 6”, 47 lbs in RX).
Rendezvous (15’ 8” and 59 lbs in RX). With the caveat that some paddlers hate the RX version.
(The Solo Plus doesn’t have much rocker, and the Rogue is too dang big/deep.)

I’m sure there are others. Suggestions for other used CL II solo daytrip canoes I have overlooked are more than welcome before I send him a cheat sheet. Thanks.

 

[dougd]

You might want to add Ranger Canoe. I see them a lot for sale on CL up here, mostly in kevlar. Not a bad weight in Kev, 16' and a great poling boat with lots of freeboard. It could easily be soloized. I used to paddle mine (actually had 2) from the front seat backwards but I think a single seat would work just as well.

http://rangercanoe.com/Specs.html

dougd

 

[JoeO]

Mad river Me or Milbrook composite ME very nimble boat

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Chestnut Chum. Rumor has it that there are 183 of them hidden in northern Connecticut.

Rivers + Royalex + eastern American?

Whitesell Piranha, Whitesell Descender, Dagger Encore, Dagger Rival, Dagger Caption, Dagger other ones that I can't remember, Old Town Penobscot, OT H2Pro, Blue Hole OCA, Blue Hole OCB, Blue Hole Sunburst I, Blue Hole Sunburst II, Mad River ME, Mad River Explorer 16, Mad River Explorer 15, Mohawk XL 13, Mohawk XL 14, Mohawk XL15, Mohawk Solo, Mad River Outrage XL.

 

[yellowcanoe]

WildFire and YS aren't the same boat unless the WF is in RX. Even then its not the same as a composite WF
The Swift Raven is a good boat but way too big for day trips. At over 15 feet and deep its a wilderness tripper for extended journeys.
Argosy is twitchy especially for the seated paddler.
Curtis DragonFly.. Some do come up for sale at that price point.

 

[Guest]

Whitesell Piranha, Whitesell Descender, Dagger Encore, Dagger Rival, Dagger Caption, OT H2Pro, Blue Hole Sunburst I, Blue Hole Sunburst II, Mad River ME, Mohawk XL 13, Mohawk XL 14, Mohawk XL15, Mad River Outrage XL.

From e-mails and conversations I believe he is looking for more of a “crossover” canoe, a 14 – 15 foot downriver canoe that will handle Class II.

I know the rivers he is running. There are long stretches of flats mixed with some CL II, and any solo downriver canoe with some depth and rocker would handle it fine. For his purposes something like a MRC Guide/Freedom Solo, Mohawk Odyssey 14 or Yellowstone Solo would be close to the mark for his desired length, weight and intended daytrip use.

I included stuff like a soloized Penobscot 16 because it is widely available used. I may have already found him a Penobscot 16 that appears to be in great shape. If it proves to be a P16 I told him “Just buy it; if you don’t like it I’ll give you $250 for it, or you could flip it for $700”.

But, just in case, I will include a subsection of more whitewater oriented canoes. Thanks

WildFire and YS aren't the same boat unless the WF is in RX. Even then its not the same as a composite WF

Good catch, for clarity I will make that read “Bell Yellowstone Solo (or RX Wildfire)” on his cheat sheet.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Originally posted by Glenn MacGrady View Post

Whitesell Piranha, Whitesell Descender, Dagger Encore, Dagger Rival, Dagger Caption, OT H2Pro, Blue Hole Sunburst I, Blue Hole Sunburst II, Mad River ME, Mohawk XL 13, Mohawk XL 14, Mohawk XL15, Mad River Outrage XL.



"From e-mails and conversations I believe he is looking for more of a “crossover” canoe, a 14 – 15 foot downriver canoe that will handle Class II."

***

Mike, of those solo WW boats I listed, the ones most like a crossover canoe that can tour on flats, trip with lots of gear, and also handle class 3 WW, are the Sunburst I and II. They were outstanding canoes that I paddled many times. Some years after Blue Hole folded, they were made by someone else -- Evergreen in Canada, I believe, now defunct.

Both Sunburst I and II were 14-6 long. The I was 14.5" center deep and the II 15.5". Hence, the II could handle heavier loads and water. To compare to more modern canoes, which is always dicey and somewhat meaningless, the Sunbursts were sized lengthwise between a Bell Yellowstone and Rockstar, had similar symmetrical rocker, but were deeper, especially the Sunburst II. I'm not sure of the widths, but they're probably close.

 

[yellowcanoe]

I portaged a Sunburst I once . It almost killed me. I picked it up in Maryland from the seller who apologized that he could not help me load it onto my truck. I took it to the buyer in CT.. The dang thing almost killed me loading it.

 

[Guest]

Both Sunburst I and II were 14-6 long. The I was 14.5" center deep and the II 15.5". Hence, the II could handle heavier loads and water. To compare to more modern canoes, which is always dicey and somewhat meaningless, the Sunbursts were sized lengthwise between a Bell Yellowstone and Rockstar, had similar symmetrical rocker, but were deeper, especially the Sunburst II. I'm not sure of the widths, but they're probably close.

I had a 1987 Sunburst. In Kevlar, not a common canoe . It was a dumpster ready freebie I rehabbed. I sold it to a friend for small change and he passed it along to another friend a few years later. As a sitter it is not my kind of canoe, especially after I drew in the gunwales to reduce the flare.

New addition to list
MRC Courier.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Glenn might have tried to mention it, but maybe didn't get the whole name in....Mohawk Solo 14. A surprisingly friendly boat.

Kind of hard for me to comment on though, because I remember reading that "Eastern class 2" isn't the same as "Western class 2" - and I don't remember which is supposed to be bigger. Some less sporty canoes though might also work for him. I did class 2 solo in the Wenonah Fisherman, both standing and sitting, with no problems, and I am about the same size. Wenonah also makes a 15' Prospector that wouldn't be a bad solo downriver boat. I've done easy class 2 in the Dagger Sojourn, but kneeling is required, as are extended spray decks.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

And I know someone in your neck of the woods has been paddling a Clipper 14' Prospector solo.

 

[Guest]

And I know someone in your neck of the woods has been paddling a Clipper 14' Prospector solo.

There are dang few Clipper 14' Prospectors in my neck of the woods. If that fellow is also a Steven I had the boat he’s paddling before he bought it.

 

[yellowcanoe]

No Title

There is a newly designed 14 foot Prospector prototype being paddled. Per CEW it will probably be made by Swift It is a DY design dedicated solo. As its new its not used!

The Solo 13 and 14 are good boats for class 2. I ran the Buffalo below Ponca in a Solo 13

 

[pblanc]

The Dagger Caper is/was a Royalex canoe that was introduced as a whitewater solo but later as a whitewater tandem. I like it a little bit better for whitewater tripping because I think it has a bit better forward efficiency than the Dagger/Mad River Caption already mentioned. The Caper is very similar in overall dimensions to the Caption, 4" longer, half an inch narrower, and a bit less rockered.

Dagger also made a Genesis and an Impulse model that could easily be used for river tripping. I think that the Dagger Rival (also made by Millbrook in a composite version) is a bit small for that purpose unless the paddler and load are on the pretty light side. It might work for your friend if he is not carrying too much gear. The Rival always seemed to be a whitewater hull that was favored much more highly by smaller paddlers (170lb and below) and that is for paddling without a load.

Mohawk made a couple of other Royalex hulls that could be used for river tripping. The Viper 12 is actually 12 1/2 feet long and has plenty of capacity. It is a hard-chined hull which is not everyone's cup of tea, however. The Mohawk Shaman (12' 8") is/was a shortened version of the Hemlock Shaman, which was designed to compete in the ACA "combined class" (downriver and slalom in the same boat). As such, it has a nice compromise of maneuverability and efficiency and it has plenty of carrying capacity. The Hemlock Shaman is still made in composite form, but you probably won't find one for $800.

In my opinion, the YS Solo and Argosy aren't the greatest choices for river tripping with a load through any real Class II rapids, unless the rapids are very short. The YS Solo lacks sufficient depth and the Argosy lacks secondary stability if it is loaded such that the bubble-side tumblehome is half submerged, and it does not shed waves well.

There are some other composite canoes that would serve, some of which might be found used in that price range. These include the Mad River Screamer or Traveler, and the Wenonah WWC1 and C1W. All of these were designed to be solo downriver racers. They thus have good depth and efficiency and are pretty dry, but they are also pretty straight-tracking and are best maneuvered using a combination of side-slips and back ferries. But they will also carry a good deal of gear. There is also the Hemlock SRT in composite which would be very good indeed, but you ain't gonna find one for $800.

My short list of favorite Royalex whitewater solo hulls for river tripping in up to Class II water would be the Blue Hole Sunburst II, Dagger Caper, and Mad River ME, all of which are excellent.

There are some tandem Royalex whitewater hulls that have been used as solo trippers, usually by larger paddlers, that have not been mentioned. These would include the Dagger Dimension, Blue Hole Starburst, and Nova Craft Moisie (the last two are basically the same hull). I suppose that the Nova Craft Supernova would also work. Esquif also has some designs that might fit the bill, including the Pocket Canyon and the Vertige X.

 

[Mason]

I saw the MR Courier was added. I bought an old one this winter, but haven't had a chance to try it on the local rocky rivers (more of a fast boat kinda guy--and I don't have any WW partners). Does anyone have experience with it? I've spent a fair bit of time in 16' Penobscots solo, which I thought was a very nice ww tripping boat, especially if there was any flat water. Unfortunately, I sold both of my Penobscots, and so needed a RX boat to beat up.

 

[yellowcanoe]

I think we may have lost sight of the OP parameters

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I think we may have lost sight of the OP parameters

I'm now not sure what the parameters are. Mr. McCrea now seems to have introduced his own preference -- perhaps also his friend's -- that of a "sit only" canoe.

That will exclude all solo canoes designed for whitewater and just about all designed for maneuverability in class 2 rivers, which I thought was a parameter. The only "sit only" hulls likely to remain are Wenonah-type racing hulls with tractor seats or SOB hulls such as decked canoes.

Confused in the People's Republic of Nutmeg.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Day tripping. Not camping. Sitting. The sitting part can often be fixed. Even in my DragonFly which is usually regarded as a kneeler, drop the seat. I have a friend who did so. Exclusively sits

 

[Guest]

I'm now not sure what the parameters are. Mr. McCrea now seems to have introduced his own preference -- perhaps also his friend's -- that of a "sit only" canoe.

That will exclude all solo canoes designed for whitewater and just about all designed for maneuverability in class 2 rivers, which I thought was a parameter. The only "sit only" hulls likely to remain are Wenonah-type racing hulls with tractor seats or SOB hulls such as decked canoes.

He wants something solo and “I prefer to sit on a seat than straddle a saddle. I also don’t feel like this is a time in my life to go after class 3 or 4. (getting old)”.

wants something shorter/lighter/more nimble for CL II downriver daytrips. . . . and will put float bags in it. He is around 5’10”, 160 lbs and in good condition (bikes and XC skies)

From e-mails and conversations I believe he is looking for more of a “crossover” canoe, a 14 – 15 foot downriver canoe that will handle Class II.

I know the rivers he is running. There are long stretches of flats mixed with some CL II, and any solo downriver canoe with some depth and rocker would handle it fine.

I did not include the entire text of our e-mails and conversations, just the most relevant what and where. This canoe would be a day trip boat; when he canoe camps he uses the Dagger Reflection 16 tandem with his wife. The Dagger was actually a wedding gift to his daughter, now stored at his place, so it isn’t a candidate to tear apart and rebuild as a solo. In any case the Reflection is too big at 16’ 6”, and has almost no rocker in the stern (0.5&#148.

He has been paddling the Blue Hole/Shenandoah in class II and the weight of that beast (probably close to 80 lbs with my early unlearned rehab repair efforts) is unsatisfactory. It also seems, from conversation, that he really wants something lighter, and in the 14 – 15 foot range. He may be over ascribing weight to length; even a Penobscot 16 would drop close to 20 lbs below the beast's weight when soloized.

His “Prefer to sit on a seat than straddle a saddle” was perhaps unclear. Not “sit only”, he does kneel in bouncy water (just doesn’t like a saddle) and I will help him outfit whatever used canoe he buys, including D-rings/float bag lacing, minicel knee pads and a (back of center) canted seat if soloized. Probably a foot brace too to help on the seated flats.

No doubt I have introduced my personal preferences in potential canoe selection to some degree, but not exclusively. While I would be unhappy on the flats with a Whitesell or Outrage I would also be uncomfortable in Class II in a too small/tender for me Yellowstone Solo or (especially) Argosy, or even in a not-too-small plastic Rendezvous; I liked the composite version and hated the rubber one. I have 100 lbs on him, so his small downriver canoe mileage may vary.

The more whitewater oriented canoe suggestions are still welcome, especially if they are amenable to a kneeling bench seat. He has now begun using “Class II+”, whatever the heck that means.

I know bupkiss about whitewater canoes, despite owning a couple (Starburst and Caper, both freebie rehabs and both quickly given to friends), so recommendations for more whitewater oriented models that would work with a solo kneeling bench seat are appreciated. He lives near Friendsville MD, a mini-mecca of whitewater paddlers, and so may find more old-school used WW canoes then downriver crossovers.

At least he is reasonable in his parameters and not asking the quintessential newb question “I’m looking for a canoe I can use solo for Class III and also to take the wife, kids and dog out on the lake”

 

[yellowcanoe]

I'm pretty sure the list is long enough.... Used to be that last question was easily answerable.. Grumman and Grumman.