​Cheat Sheet of Used Canoes for solo downriver CL II daytrips

[Steve in Idaho]

Oh, BTW - did the Genesis make it on your list yet?

 

[Will Derness]

Correction. On that trip I was in my Wenonah Advantage which is a hard tracking canoe so the Clipper of course turned easier. If Mike is correct on 1 1/2 inch rocker then the Clipper might handle wind issues reasonably well in the hands of a practiced paddler. In the canoe it felt like a fine river touring canoe, catching eddies with ease, and that is where it probably shines. Having said that, towards the end of the 100+ miles we had a wide river with windy days and the owner/operator never complained nor seemed to have on river difficulties

 

[Guest]

Mad River Twister for Bro-in-law?

All I know is that the Twister is a 13’ 2” “slalom racing canoe”, made my MRC from 1990 to 1994. It looks to be in good shape; massive spray decks. Even the minicel saddle, straps, knee pads and float bag lacing look unbattered and well designed/installed.

Thought for his now-desire for a Class 2+ (maybe 3) downriver solo canoe with some rapids play?

 

[pblanc]

The Mad River Twister was a somewhat radical solo hull design designed by Mark Clarke and Dave Paton and geared directly towards whitewater open boat slalom competition. It was sort of a successor to their "Rattler" design which was constructed for the 1984 Nationals and was one of the earliest hard-chine racing designs. It is radically rockered, has a flattish bottom, a pretty sharp chine, and a pretty narrow gunwale width.

For the first 4 years of its construction, MRC used Spectra fabric along with fiberglass for this boat. The last year they produced it, they substituted Kevlar for the Spectra. It has a foam core bottom and foam side ribs to save weight and MRC also used quite thin and lightweight wood gunwales on this boat. The Twister I bought had developed multiple cracks along the stress riser created by the side edge of the bottom core and required significant rehabilitation.

This would certainly not be the most forgiving downriver canoe for someone who had not been in anything much sportier than a Reflection or OCA. The sharp chine would likely result in many swims early on. Also, due to its extreme rocker and very proud stems, the waterline length is pretty short for its length overall, so it certainly won't be the most efficient on the flats.

Here are some Twister photos so you can judge for yourself:

 

[Guest]

The photos are a big help; that is some “heroic layout in the bow and stern and yeah, I wonder about the waterline length of the hull.

That is your canoe, or at-one-time canoe I assume. The skid plates look like your work, and the outfitting is impressive. Your glass top coffee table too. I thought the photo with paddler was Hopley at first.

I hope BIL’s take away is the same as mine:

The Mad River Twister was a somewhat radical solo hull design

successor to their "Rattler" design which was constructed for the 1984 Nationals and was one of the earliest hard-chine racing designs. It is radically rockered, has a flattish bottom, a pretty sharp chine, and a pretty narrow gunwale width.

MRC also used quite thin and lightweight wood gunwales on this boat. The Twister I bought had developed multiple cracks along the stress riser created by the side edge of the bottom core and required significant rehabilitation.

not be the most forgiving downriver canoe for someone who had not been in anything much sportier than a Reflection or OCA. The sharp chine would likely result in many swims early on.

due to its extreme rocker and very proud stems, the waterline length is pretty short for its length overall, so it certainly won't be the most efficient on the flats.

That and the photos should be enough to dissuade him. I hope.

Many thanks Pete. That is a helluva history on a 20+ year old oddball cane and concise history lesson. I love that kind of canoe history, especially the stuff in the late ‘70’s and 80’s.

 

[gumpus]

Mike, per your original post...there happen to be 3 used Rockstars on pnet right now if that boat interests you. Two are Royalex. I'd like to paddle the black/gold one.

 

[pblanc]

Yes, that boat is mine and I still have it, although I have not paddled it for a few years now. The photo of the interior shows a Kevlar belt I had to lay down on the interior overlapping the hull bottom and the bottom core. Also had to put a full layer of 4 oz S 'glass on the bottom as well as the S 'glass abrasion plates. The Twister is a really cool canoe and I would be sorely tempted to buy one in good condition at the right price, but I could hardly recommend it as a first whitewater solo boat, unless it was for someone who had a great sense of adventure and did not mind getting wet. It is built to spin, and unless it is paddled with determination will spin out on an eddy line, let alone the problem of catching an "edge".

The story is that the Rattler that the Twister design was later based on, was basically a Cudamax C-1 hull bottom with sides added. Only a handful of Rattlers were made and some of the top places at the 1984 Slalom Nationals on the Nantahala were taken by paddlers in Rattlers, at least Dave Paton (2nd place) and Frankie Hubbard (3rd place). I am not sure what boat first place winner Kent Ford was paddling.

Here is a photo of a Rattler racing at Nantahala Falls in 1992. The resemblance to the Twister is pretty remarkable.



Frankie Hubbard knew a good thing when he saw one and was not one to let the grass grow under his feet. By the next year when the Nationals were held in Vermont, Frankie was paddling his new design, the Edge. Dave Paton and Mark Clarke were in Twisters. The Edge was a revolutionary design in and of itself but was also the precursor to many great Hubbard sharp-chine whitewater designs including the Mohawk Vipers, Dagger Ocoee, and a bunch of later, short, roto-molded PE OC-1 hulls including the Savage Skeeter, Savage Super-Fly, Robson CU-Fly, and Pyranha Spanish Fly.

 

[Guest]

What about a Millbrook Kyote?

I don’t know the specs for the Kyote. It was, per the Millbrook site, the predecessor to the Hooter, which is 13’ 2”, 27” wide, 29 lbs).

The price is right – free. It is cracked, with fugly patches over old cracks, and needs new gunwales, deck plates, thwarts and etc. It does have a minicel saddle.

I could put it right in the shop for $100 in parts and materials, but think it may be too much of a tool little boat swim machine for my novice WW B-in-law.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

What about a Millbrook Kyote?

This is a radically asymmetrically rockered whitewater slalom racing canoe. Zero is about what it would be worth to me, and probably not much less than the total number of Kyote's sold.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Wow! That's a lot of rocker. And that's saying something, coming from one who has an Outrage.

For 100 bucks in paddling shape, I'd get it and play with it - expecting to get something else for river tripping.

 

[Guest]

For 100 bucks in paddling shape, I'd get it and play with it - expecting to get something else for river tripping.

If it is indeed fixable for $100 I would grab it as a fall canoe rehab project, even though it is not the canoe my B-in-law is looking for and sure as heck nothing I want.

If. The last time I saw that canoe was four or five years ago when it was first bought well used/cheap.

Well used but not well maintained. It already needed a lot of attention, and had horrible/dangerous poorly installed patches from the previous owner. “Dangerous” as in needle sharp frayed and lifting edges surrounding the perimeter of the patches. I wouldn’t have gotten anywhere near that cheese grater hull in a rescue. I didn’t even want to handle it much on the rack.

At the time some gunwale rehab and simple RO sander, cloth and epoxy work could have put it right.

Since I last saw the Kyote it has been stored outside; unused, uncovered and unmaintained, so I know the gunwales and brightwork are all shot. And the canoe rack it was stored on collapsed under a snow load a few winters ago and crushed the hull to some as-yet uninspected damage.

I think it is a 50/50 shot that I will take one look at it, calculate more like $250 in parts and materials, and even with labor as a funsie freebie take a pass.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Scary, Mike!

Is okay, just the same. "Playing with it", for me anyway, would amount to viewing 360° of every 20' of the river. Who has time for that?

 

[Guest]

Is okay, just the same. "Playing with it", for me anyway, would amount to viewing 360° of every 20' of the river. Who has time for that?

I may still try to pick up that Kyote and rehab it if $100 +/- materially affordable. I am that desperate for a winter shop project.

There have been a few Bro-in-law used canoe candidates come and gone, including a fair market Penobscot, which is one of my favorite big-boy soloized trippers, but far more boat than his skinny arse needs for daytripping.

And an Old Town H2Pro, which might work as a more entry level whitewater designated hull. I don’t know much about that canoe; it never seemed to garner much of a following and that gives me pause.

And a third used candidate currently in the works, one of the better do-everything solo canoes designs, especially for his size, weight and multi-use desires.

An unnamed make/model for now; I’ll know in a day or two if he made that deal, and hope he does. And then it’s time for a shop outfitting visit.

 

[Guest]

And a third used candidate currently in the works, one of the better do-everything solo canoes designs, especially for his size, weight and multi-use desires.

And the winner was. . . . .a Mad River Freedom Solo, for a fair deal 2/3[SUP]rd[/SUP] of MSRP new , and it looks to be in pristine condition.

14’ 6”
30 ½” gunwale width
29” waterline width
14 ¼” deep at center
20” deep at bow (19 ¾ stern)
2 ½” of symmetrical rocker bow & stern
56 lbs in vinyl gunwale

I’m glad he bought a good boat at a fair price instead of waiting and searching for an underpriced unicorn. Lots of good paddling weather left.

The Freedom Solo is one of my favorite downriver canoes, and should be a good do-a-bit-of-everything hull for my B-in-law’s size and weight. Added personal bonus; the seller was a local club guy who remembered me from years ago, and had done a lot of the same trips, from the Green to the Rio Grande and other far flung waters.

My bias may be showing, but I think the Freedom Solo is a much better choice than having bought an entry level WW canoe that would leave him paddling the weighty ex-Blue Hole beast for all other paddling purposes.

I’m interested to hear his impression once he has paddled the Freedom Solo. Methinks BMW compared to a Biscayne Wagon.

Pole-able (?) would fill another niche for him, and I’m sure he’ll try.

Other Freedom Solo paddlers – what do you think of that canoe, and what do you use it for?

 

[pblanc]

I probably haven't paddled the MRC Guide/Freedom Solo enough to render a valid opinion, but since no one else has chimed in, here goes.

I have a number of friends who own these and they all seem to like them pretty well. I have only paddled them briefly on Class I water and never on any real whitewater. My friends who own them use them primarily for river day trips, but some have used them for overnights. Some of these day trips have involved Class I and easy, short Class II rapids and they have functioned well. I don't know of anyone who has used them for more difficult whitewater, and of the paddlers who own them who do paddle whitewater, they all have different boats for that purpose.

My impressions: a bit wide for some paddlers which might inhibit executing good form cross-strokes. For whitewater I suspect it has enough depth and stem height to remain reasonably dry, and enough rocker to provide sufficient maneuverability for non-technical, non-sustained Class I-II whitewater. By today's standards it would be extremely long for a whitewater OC-1, of course, and although it has reasonable end rocker it has a rather long, straight-keeled center section that will inhibit quick turns and it will be too long to catch smaller eddies.

My guess is that if your friend's goal is to do whitewater day trips and run rapids up to straightforward Class II, without playing much in them, it will probably serve him well so long as he can handle the width. If he becomes interested in whitewater, I suspect he will look for another boat.

 

[Canotrouge]

No Title

This is a radically asymmetrically rockered whitewater slalom racing canoe. Zero is about what it would be worth to me, and probably not much less than the total number of Kyote's sold.

I have a prowler by Millbrook, and that is the best boat I've paddle so far for class I to III+ love the speed, it is 15 feet long, but really paddle like a 13 foot canoe, it is dry and stable as a solo boat, it is dry but not so stable as a tandem boat. It wouldn't be my first choice as a beginner canoe or a canoe that do it all type thing... But it is a great boat design. I'm waiting for Kaz to redesign the Ignitor and see what he comes up with!!

p.s. please if you know of any Millbrook boats that are free or really cheap, let me know!!!

 

[Guest]

My friends who own them use them primarily for river day trips, but some have used them for overnights. Some of these day trips have involved Class I and easy, short Class II rapids and they have functioned well

My guess is that if your friend's goal is to do whitewater day trips and run rapids up to straightforward Class II, without playing much in them, it will probably serve him well so long as he can handle the width. If he becomes interested in whitewater, I suspect he will look for another boat.

I’m thinking much the same. About the width, after solo paddling the old Blue Hole/Shenandoah his new ride will be much narrower. For 90% of what he does the Freedom Solo is a vast improvement on the beastly Blue Hole/Shenandoah. Although he has not yet tripped in a solo canoe at his size/weight the Freedom Solo should be fine for overnighters and long weekend trips.

His first brief “trip report”

I took it out on a lake today during “lunch”
Love it—when I first sat in it – whoa – it seemed small but by the end of the float I had gotten used to it. A bit of a wind but it tracked fine – nothing like the Dagger Caption. I played spinning and moving quickly and it was very responsive. Of course the initial stability is not like my 16 ft. I am not sure I will be poling too often. I did not test the secondary stability I think it is worth doing that when I am prepared to get wet and will likely check the secondary stability in shallow areas in the next several weeks. - better to get wet now then in March I think.
Lots easier to load – lots easier to load.
But on the water – handled very well. I position with the bow to the wind at an angle and it move nicely.
So – happy guy.

The Freedom Solo was the type of do-everything solo he needed to find first. If he occasionally opts for more whitewater oriented trips finding a used, old-school entry level whitewater canoe at a bargain price should be an easier search.

please if you know of any Millbrook boats that are free or really cheap, let me know!!!

If I ever get a look at that battered and brightwork-rotted Kyote, and think it worth $100 or less in parts to make sound, I’ll fix it up and see if it works for his whitewater desires.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

I have poled a Freedom Solo...briefly. A little squirrelly, but do-able. Kind of surprising, really. Not as easy as the Mohawk Solo14, but not entirely intimidating.

I got to see that same boat go down long stretches of class 2 and some class 3 on an overnight trip this last spring. The owner, Eric, had rigged splash decking of sorts on the bow. Basically a small tarp secured and draped over camping gear so it was raised in the middle. Not exactly a dry ride - he had to eddy out and dump quite a bit in the c3 stuff (but so did I in the Prospector), but it worked surprisingly well - and he isn't a small guy.

Yeah - I think the Freedom Solo is a pretty darn good all-around solo. You can make it turn, BTW. It just takes more effort and commitment.

 

[Canotrouge]

One of my good friend have a Freedom solo that he uses a lot on big trips, He goes for 20 days in usually rivers that are classII-III+ and he goes solo! He likes the boat a lot. He is a great paddler, and can make that boat do what ever he wants!!

 

[Guest]

have poled a Freedom Solo...briefly. A little squirrelly, but do-able. Kind of surprising, really. Not as easy as the Mohawk Solo14, but not entirely intimidating.

For now he can use the Blue Hole/Shenandoah beast for poling. Years ago I set that canoe up as (at least) a tandem, maybe even as a young family three-seater. It could be I eventually get the Beast back in the shop for some seat(s) weight reduction and solo/poling outfitting thwartage.

I got to see that same boat go down long stretches of class 2 and some class 3 on an overnight trip this last spring. The owner, Eric, had rigged splash decking of sorts on the bow. Basically a small tarp secured and draped over camping gear so it was raised in the middle.

One thing I didn’t mention; the Freedom Solo he bought has IQ system gunwales. The seller had no IQ accessories, but friend Willie has an IQ gunwaled canoe, and found a seamstress to make him IQ bolt-roped webbing daisy chains for float bag and gear lacing on the inwale slot, and even a long bow spray cover with paddle pocket that slides into the outwale channel.

Both designs an improvement over the OEM accessories, and custom made for a fraction of what MRC wanted for those parts. Those two accessories were by far the best and most useful user-friendly of the IQ stuff.

One of my good friend have a Freedom solo that he uses a lot on big trips, He goes for 20 days in usually rivers that are classII-III+ and he goes solo! He likes the boat a lot. He is a great paddler, and can make that boat do what ever he wants!!

I appreciate those Freedom Solo reviews. A sub-15 foot canoe wouldn’t be my tripper choice for a long outing, but at his weight, for a week’s trip or less, he should be fine.

I’m headed south soon into blackwater day trip country, and the various appraisals prompted me to bring the Freedom Solo into the shop for a onceover before I rack it.

My favorite solo for day tripping those blackwater rivers is still the Mohawk Odyssey 14. It’s a little slow, but it is a great shallow draft canoe, and it is a wonderfully stable platform, with a decent height bench seat for hopping in and out and back in getting past strainers. And 6 inches less in length doesn’t hurt when “Oh crap” stuffing in sideways next to some slow water strainer before climbing out atop fallen log and hauling the canoe across.

Pack canoes, kayaks and most SOT’s suck for that clamber-wobble-balance exit and re-entry.