Why are stern seats closer than bow seats to the ends of a tandem canoe?

[Glenn MacGrady]

Just about all tandem canoes have the stern seat much closer to the back end of the canoe than the bow seat is to the front end. Why?

The canoe designer presumably has spent a lot of time designing an optimized waterline shape that assumes a level trimmed canoe. Yet, when two equal weight paddlers sit on standard tandem canoe seats, the canoe immediately goes bow light, thereby distorting the design waterline.

Worse, it is overwhelmingly common for the heavier paddler to sit in the stern, such as a man in the stern and a woman in the bow or an adult in the stern and a child in the bow. In these situations where the heavier paddler is in the stern, the canoe will be significantly out of trim and the bow might even rise out of the water, thereby creating some sort of Frankenstein waterline shape that probably never appeared on the designer's drafting table or computer program.

What are the design, performance, efficiency or practical reasons for the stern and bow seats to be placed at asymmetrical distances from the ends of the canoe? Wouldn't there be more trim equality and flexibility if the seats were placed at some equal distance from the ends?

 

[Canoe Trip]

I have often wondered the same thing. More so Now since I have this Old Town Camper and the seat is so far back, I can’t fit any type of backrest in it. The gunwales are so close together at the back of the seat it is to narrow for any backrest seat to fit in between them. Not that I would use a backrest paddling but its nice to lean back when you are fishing and floating along for a few hours. There isn’t really that much room between the seat and rear deck either, just enough room to drop a 25L dry bag on end.

I’ve thought about bringing it forward an inch or two - But that’s 4 new holes in a boat that has survived since 1988 without being marred. Then once moved forward to find those few inches made a handling difference for the worse. “that’s why Old Town mounted it where they did” and have to move it back. I mostly use it solo so it is not worth me to drill holes to move it. However, if you were a larger person, it would be a tight fit. Like you would be gunwale to gunwale with your butt trying to sit back on the seat.

best pictures I could drum up without uncovering it in the garage.
paddling it backward, but you can see how narrow the back of the seat is with the gunwales

 

[tketcham]

Glenn MacGrady,​

"Wouldn't there be more trim equality and flexibility if the seats were placed at some equal distance from the ends?"

Two of the three tandems I've owned had sliding bow and stern seats to make it easier to adjust trim. For the third tandem, a 37 year old canoe with bench seats, we just make sure there's extra weight placed right behind the bow paddler, something easy to move. But I think sliding stern seats (at a minimum) should be the norm. It's so easy to slide one or both seats to account for weight differences or for when the wind picks up and you want to minimize wind cocking.

Canoes with relatively extreme fixed stern (or bow) seat positions do exist, but even with better balanced seat positions and/or sliding seats, we'll always need to account for weight differences bow and stern if trying to optimize trim.

 

[stevet]

I weigh twice what my wife weighs and I move the stern seat forward by one seat depth (rear cross rail of new seat goes in the holes of the original seat front rail). Con: of course this means buying a new seat. Pro: I can usually fit in a wider seat for more comfort.

 

[Bob B.]

I think it mainly has to do with room for paddler legs and gear more than anything? If the bow seat was closer, the paddling station is very uncomfortable. If it is farther back, less room for gear. I paddle tandem canoes solo … so my canoes have the bow seat removed. Anyway, that is just my uneducated guess.

Bob.

 

[TimG]

I think Bob makes a good point about available room, but I always assumed it was about the paddlers center of gravity being forward of the seat due to their outstretched legs and arms. If the seats spacing and paddler weights were even, I think you’d surely end up bow-heavy and harder to control than being a little bow-light. The manufacturer can only assume even paddler weights as an average, cuz there’s plenty of big mamas out there too!

 

[scoutergriz]

it's mainly about mechanics- the bow paddler is able to reach fairly close to the centreline at the start of the stroke and they generally do a long gentle sweep towards their hip, the stern paddler has to counteract that sweep by doing a long gentle draw as their paddle approaches their hip to counteract that turning force. The stern paddler also has to control the direction of the canoe which is far easier if they're sitting close to that centreline. moving the seat forward means that the paddler can no longer reach as close to the centreline, which means exaggerating the sweep and draw parts of the stroke, especially as you approach amidships, hence the invention of the solo "c " stroke.

 

[yknpdlr]

I think it mainly has to do with room for paddler legs and gear more than anything? If the bow seat was closer, the paddling station is very uncomfortable. If it is farther back, less room for gear. I paddle tandem canoes solo … so my canoes have the bow seat removed. Anyway, that is just my uneducated guess.

Bob.

Wow, tell me about it. I have been the primary bow paddler for more than two decades in many dozens of canoe races. Adjustable sliding seats, both stern and bow, are life savers for my legs and for canoe trim. I have a particularly difficult problem of where to put my legs in anything like a comfortable or efficient placement during the Yukon races, when we have to carry enough support gear for either 500 or 1000 miles. I am often not the lightest paddler on the team and unless I can push the bow seat back a fair distance, my legs are cramped in the narrow bow, with feet against either the bulkhead (if there is one) or onsome sort of foot brace, often with one foot squished in the narrowing bow and the other foot awkwarely pushing against the side bones of theother. Add containers of water and food and excess personal and team gear bags under my knees and the seat and I have a real problem with inability to adjust leg position making for numbness and tingling of butt and legs.

 

[Benson Gray]

No canoe manufacturer will ever be able to guess the optimum seat locations for every situation as illustrated below. Get saddle seats as shown at https://azlandtraditions.com/saddle-seat and an open gunwale canoe if you want more flexibility in adjusting the seat locations and heights.

Benson

 

[Sweetfancymoses]

Our friends of the k***k persuasion have moved both seats toward the center necessitating a synchronized paddle stroke. The seat position should work with canoe paddles. The payload would have to be in front of the bow paddler and in the back of the stern paddler.

As far as trim, how do you judge the trim of your canoe when sitting in it?

 

[JohnSand]

When paddling a canoe solo, I sit on the bottom and use a double paddle (gasp!). I'm 6'5" tall, it might not be a good solution for everyone. I like using ballast in small boats, a shot bag, exercise weights or a couple of gallons of water make a big difference.
It is hard to tell the trim of a canoe from inside, the sound of the waves under the bow helps, as well as the way the boat handles.

 

[lowangle al]

I like a bow light trim, and think it is the reason for the seat being so far back. The further back in the boat you are the more efficient your stroke will be. The lighter your bow, the more maneuverable your boat will be. You will also sit a little higher the further back you are, giving you a better view. The further back the seat is, the less likely you will have a bow heavy trim if you have a heavy bow person.

One downside to having a bow light trim is that you will be more affected by the wind. This is easily overcome by knowing how to paddle.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Physics
the pivot point is in front of the center of the canoe in motion
Most stern paddlers follow the gunwale ( which is not good) but being further from the pivot point means less force is needed to undo the effects of their mini sweep

 

[ppine]

Simple. Room for the bow paddlers legs.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Simple. Room for the bow paddlers legs.

Of course. The issue is not the position of the bow seat, but the reason for the stern seat to be so close to the stern deck. Only in a very short tandem canoe would leg room be an issue for a seated stern paddler.

Tandem kayaks do not have a stern seat so far back. Nor do many decked and open whitewater canoes, which are often set up with the seats in a close-together "Gemini position." Native canoes didn't have seats, so the paddlers could kneel anywhere in the hull. Many flat water racing canoes are set up with sliding bow and sliding stern seats to adjust trim.

There must be some historical reason why the early makers of wood/rib/seated canoes put the stern seats so far back and so high up off the floor. It is the easiest place from which to rudder a canoe, but also the easiest to throw it out of trim. If everyone paddled a loaded canoe like the paddler in our logo, then paddling from the far stern is a reasonable technique. But most people just day trip in empty canoes without loads of camping gear, beaver pelts or or moose carcasses.

the pivot point is in front of the center of the canoe in motion
Most stern paddlers follow the gunwale ( which is not good) but being further from the pivot point means less force is needed to undo the effects of their mini sweep

Not sure I buy this. If the stern seat were closer forward to the pivot point, the stern paddler's poor (sweeping) forward paddling technique would not yaw the canoe as much in the first place, so there would be less correction required. Seems like it would sort of even out, force-wise.

 

[Benson Gray]

There must be some historical reason why the early makers of wood/rib/seated canoes put the stern seats so far back and so high up off the floor.

The common explanation for this seat location in early guide canoes is that it made it easier for the guide in the stern to see over the sport who was usually seated in front on the bottom of the canoe, to move around while landing their fish, maneuver, and otherwise attend to the needs of the sport. The early video linked below from a previous thread shows some good examples of this.

Benson

Collection – Northeast Historic Film : Intellectual Content : Canoeing in Maine [0661.0001]

 

[lowangle al]

I wouldn't assume the designers of early canoes, especially tandems, placed a high priority on a flat trim. When you are paddling an empty or loaded boat from the stern seat, it is much more maneuverable with a bow light trim. Over the years I noticed that manufacturers have moved the stern seat forward on otherwise unchanged models. Probably for safety concerns.

 

[Benson Gray]

Over the years I noticed that manufacturers have moved the stern seat forward on otherwise unchanged models.

Consumer Reports published a review of canoes in 1973 where one of their tests included a subjective measure of a canoe's stability when paddled alone from the stern seat. The Sawyer racing canoes rated very poorly in this test as you can probably image. It would have been more funny if some people weren't actually making purchase decisions based on absurd tests like this. Most canoe manufacturers moved their stern seats forward after that and many people in the canoe world stopped subscribing to Consumer Reports.

Benson

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I wouldn't assume the designers of early canoes, especially tandems, placed a high priority on a flat trim.

I would assume native paddlers were conscious of trim since the beginning of canoeing time, as were early European paddlers of wood canoes.

When you are paddling an empty or loaded boat from the stern seat, it is much more maneuverable with a bow light trim.

Maybe slightly bow light, otherwise I disagree especially as to solo paddling. For reasons I and others have stated many times, a canoe can most easily be maneuvered when paddled from a centralized position. However, other paddling positions are common and work just fine for many paddlers.

I would agree that it is easier to turn an 18'-20' canoe if you sit in the stern and convert it into a 12'-14' canoe by causing 1/3 of the waterline to lift out of the water. Pretty hard to paddle rivers or in wind waves that way.

 

[stevet]

As far as trim, how do you judge the trim of your canoe when sitting in it?

It’s helpful to place a small ball on the floor.