• Happy Marine Mammal Rescue Day! 🐳🐬🦭🦦

Carbon Fiber/Aramid Layup - Why?

Joined
Nov 14, 2018
Messages
1,340
Reaction score
442
Location
Heart of the Shawnee Nation
I’m near to pulling the trigger on a very lightweight day tripping canoe to aid in my recovery from shoulder surgery. The Blacklite layup from Northstar is offered on both the Phoenix and the Firebird with weights in the upper 20s (lbs), which sounds GREAT, but I’m wondering if it’s rigid enough to be useful. Why are carbon/aramid layups offered in such maneuverable boats? Are they tough enough for places you would need such maneuverability or not?
 
Yes! I will certainly add it to my out of pocket costs for legal recovery. IXP and Black Steel are indeed tough layups, but add about 15 lbs to a solo boat.
 
efficiency.. a hull that is wobbly won't paddle as efficiently on flat water as the waves will change the hull shape. I have a 23 lb RapidFire and its getting loaded on the car soon to paddle in Florida. Florida has oyster bars which are sharper than shale Plus the rivers do have limestone as FL is built on limestone.
Boat has also been on Lake Superior for week long trips. Of course I try to avoid rocks.

The boat is not new. It was bought in 2006.
So no fear . I would not run technical whitewater but the occasional rock bump won't hurt it.
 
Both aramid and carbon fiber have very high strength to weight ratios so they allow construction of a light canoe. Aramid has much better strength in tension than compression so it is best used for interior layers where the fibers will be stretched if the outer convex hull is indented.

Carbon fiber has a very high Young's modulus which means that it is very stiff, allowing for a highly efficient canoe as Kim said. An aramid/carbon canoe is very strong for its weight. The one disadvantage of carbon fiber is that when it fails it tends to fail catastrophically. And broken segments tend to have very sharp edges.
 
HI Black Fly,
Last October I ordered my dream boat; a Northstar Phoenix in Blacklight with wood trim and internal skid plates. It arrived in November. It is stiff, handles great, and should be plenty tough for tripping. Weight on my bathroom scales in 30.1 lbs. I had paddled the Phoenix at the WPSCR and knew that this was the river, creek and "mucking around" canoe for me.

But mostly I chose the Blacklight lay-up because it is so danged pretty with the wood gunnels!
 

Attachments

  • P1010036.JPG
    P1010036.JPG
    190.2 KB · Views: 12
Hey Black_Fly
" I’m wondering if it’s rigid enough to be useful."
Yes. I have a blackgold Yellowstone solo. It is very stiff and paddles wonderfully. I paddle it almost weekly in a small river with logs and occasional rocks. It's strong enough to survive striking logs at full speed.

Why are carbon/aramid layups offered in such maneuverable boats? Are they tough enough for places you would need such maneuverability or not?
I've wondered this myself. I like my blackgold Yellowstone, but I'd much rather have it in Royalex or IXP. The places where a 14 ft canoe is better than a 16 ft canoe mostly involved bumping into things.

If I had infinite solo canoes I'd have an IXP 14 footer and carbon kevlar 17 footer.

However, the canoe isn't part of your body. If you feel like the extra 15ish lb for the IXP is important to your ability to use the canoe I'd get the carbon Kevlar and not worry about it. Life is short, canoes can be patched.

Good luck
 
Both aramid and carbon fiber have very high strength to weight ratios so they allow construction of a light canoe. Aramid has much better strength in tension than compression so it is best used for interior layers where the fibers will be stretched if the outer convex hull is indented.

Carbon fiber has a very high Young's modulus which means that it is very stiff, allowing for a highly efficient canoe as Kim said. An aramid/carbon canoe is very strong for its weight. The one disadvantage of carbon fiber is that when it fails it tends to fail catastrophically. And broken segments tend to have very sharp edges.

I agree mostly with pblanc above. Both Kevlar/Twaron and carbon also have very high stiffness to weight ratios, so they help with the weight reduction in canoes in that respect, also, in that less material is needed to have a stiff enough hull to not deform appreciably when paddling it.

If you're going to be very easy on the boat, it wouldn't matter which material or where it's put in the layup. For pure flatwater craft a pure carbon layup would be fine if care was taken when paddling to not hit much. The less deformation carbon gets, the better it does its job. The carbon on the outside and Kevlar on the inside is a good general strategy for a slightly more robust version. If you're going to be paddling whitewater or hitting a lot of rocks, or even sliding over logs, some compression will happen to the inside layer of the boat also (maybe not enough to matter?), and I have always put some glass in strategic spots as interior-most layer to take those stresses. I wouldn't bother on a hull meant primarily for flatwater. For that it's carbon and Kevlar.

For regular whitewater use The general layup with materials available to me at the time it was glass--preferrably S-glass--replacing the carbon as the outermost layer(s) to reduce the "catastrophic failure" issue pblanc mentions, which I totally agree with! A few layers of Kevlar/Twaron inside of that, and then some glass in the bilges (primarily the chines) of the hull. But that's me, not necessarily you.

My boatbuilding days were before Innegra was patented in 2006 (not really available until 2008?), so I've not had any experience with it, or with a few of the other newer reinforcing fabrics.

As to Blackfly's question in his original post, I think carbon and Kevlar (aramid) are entirely fine for maneuverable boats as long as they're not mistreated overly much, say used loaded with gear in multiday whitewater trips where bashing about is expected. Flatwater, even if bumping things occasionally, is fine. My opinion, not necessarily that of everyone (or anyone?)
 
I have a black-gold Bell Wildfire, which is carbon on the outside and Kevlar inside. It is stiffer than an all Kevlar hull and lighter weight than than a FG/Kevlar layup. Yet, it will still flex without breaking when going over an unseen log.

I don't hit many rocks in rivers because I have decades of whitewater training and don't put any canoe on rivers that are too low or bony.

In any event, I wouldn't worry about occasional rock collisions or scrapes on an easy river with a carbon/Kevlar layup, but if they occur, you will have to accept a scratched hull as penance.

Getting the lightest weight gunwales, seats and thwarts available can also shave off pounds, but I'm not familiar with Northstar's options or what they cost.
 
The Blacklite layup from Northstar is offered on both the Phoenix and the Firebird with weights in the upper 20s (lbs), which sounds GREAT, but I’m wondering if it’s rigid enough to be useful. Why are carbon/aramid layups offered in such maneuverable boats? Are they tough enough for places you would need such maneuverability or not?
This new video by Ethan Ebersold (Northstar distributor) regarding Northstar's Blacklite and IXP laminations has some information you may find useful.

Northstar IXP vs Blacklite
 
The Blacklite layup is plenty rigid but if you are going to run rivers with class 2 or higher I would opt for IXP.
 
I have a black-gold Bell Wildfire, which is carbon on the outside and Kevlar inside. It is stiffer than an all Kevlar hull and lighter weight than than a FG/Kevlar layup. Yet, it will still flex without breaking when going over an unseen log.

I don't hit many rocks in rivers because I have decades of whitewater training and don't put any canoe on rivers that are too low or bony.
Glenn, I used to have a black-gold Wildfire myself, bought a demo model directly from Ted Bell at the Outdoor Retailer show back about 2000 or so, then sold it to a local club member after my shoulder surgery ten years ago because I wasn't sure I'd be using it again, not quite trusting the shoulder for maneuvers because of said surgery--total joint replacement--plus the widespread osteoarthritis that caused it. I used that boat on a local pond only and didn't have to worry about rocks or logs there. It wouldn't have bothered me to do so as the boat was plenty strong enough for that use--even overly strong for what I did with it. A lighter one would have been nicer, but I don't think they existed back then, or at least not at a price I was willing to pay. I only bought the Wildfire I had because I got a hefty discount on it.

I had a Mad River Royalex Outrage-X for the lumpy stuff, but I wasn't using that anymore either, though I kept it for a while just in case. It was primarily for "expedition whitewater," multi-day trips with gear, though I did occasional daytripping with it back then too. I sold that just last year to a good friend who could use it (and is). That boat was in very good shape also as I'd learned to mostly paddle around rocks during a long career of whitwater, starting in '71. Yup, there were a few I didn't miss, though (too many to count!). There were a few earlier boats I essentially destroyed getting to that stage. I really loved an old Perception HD-1 in which the Royalex layup was terrible, no spot reinforcement, as it basically fell apart on me. Had a lot of fun with it though, a boat way ahead of its time. I did a lot of decked C-1 paddling before and during that time, all composite boats. I don't think I ever paddled anything less than 4 meters. All the paddling I do nowdays is tandem with my wife, mostly long expedition trips. I don't even own any solo boats any more. Oops, I shouldn't say that as I do have an old Mad River Kevlar ME that isn't paddleable any more because it's in that "destroyed" category. We're contemplating turning it into a planter in the spring. Oh, hey, I've also got an old rotomolded polyethylene Robson CU-Fly if anyone is interested. I'm West Coast though. I guess I should look in my barn to see what else is there.
 
I just sold my starlite NW17 and picked up a new blacklite. It’s a touch heavier, but nothing too crazy. I also figure for my previous used outfitter edition, with repair work, I’m probably the same weight or lighter even.

Went this route over straight Kevlar because after talking to NS and some other folks, this combination will be a touch stronger than Kevlar alone. A little more efficiency and a little more durability. I don’t purposefully bump into rocks, and this might not ever see class 2 rapids, but it feels ok knowing it won’t be a catastrophe if I do. And it looks ok
IMG_0315.jpeg
 
Back
Top