​Which modern materials layup?

[Guest]

That Dragonfly is overweight as it was not Kevlar or Carbon only but a combination of three materials that have proven to be a good combo.. FIberglass is in there as the third component

Therein rests my dither in thinking about a new high-end composite canoe. I could afford to have one built, I might even deserve one for having been such a very good and frugal boy for so long. Built and factory outfitted to my preferred seat and thwart placements, a lighter canoe would probably become my go-to boat, so durability still matters.

But the now vast and exotic array of materials, schedules, layups & production techniques, infusion/vacuum bagging, carbon gunwales and thwarts and/or etc becomes a mental muddle.

Kevlar and S-glass, long the simple durability standard? Kevlar and carbon? Innegra? Basalt? Those last two new enough I am lost in experience proven translation.

One of the most intriguing modern canoes, to my eye and from everything I have heard or read, is the Swift Keewaydin 15, or perhaps a Kee 16, factory soloized as a big boy big load hauler hull.

I am honestly not sure which layup would be most suited for my oft abusive uses, not sure where my best weight for cost for durability trades would reside.

A question for canoe trippers, sticking with that particular model in currently available composite schedules, if you were buying a new, made to order Swift Keewaydin, which layup would you choose and why? I’m not sure what the difference is/once was between Swift’s Gold Fusion and Guide Fusion nomenclature, but heaviest to lightest currently listed:

Expedition (kevlar, basalt, Innegra). That’s a lotta weird stuff, and if it really works maybe worth the lifetime weight penalty.

Kevlar Fusion (kevlar and S-glass). I know that combination works well, and I can repair it if need be.

Carbon Fusion (carbon, kevlar, Innegra). Meh, foam ribs, not a fan.

Nay on foam ribs for me, so the lightest and priciest Carbon Fusion is out. I would be drawn to the Expedition or Kevlar Fusion, with the simplicity of aluminum gunwales for future outfitting ease (and disaster relief, I ain’t replacing no carbon trim). Add a custom front thwart placement to allow me to install a utility sail thwart and trap a barrel or large pack sideways between front thwarts.

Yeah, a factory soloized Keewaydin 16 in Kevlar Fusion, lose one seat, add a second front thwart, still 40-ish lbs.

http://www.swiftcanoe.com/keewaydin-16

Pigmented cloth? Sage or Emerald over white waterline?

A man can still winter dream while clenching his wallet.

 

[yellowcanoe]

We're totally in agreement re foam ribs.. actually I hate foam anything.. The ribs in particular are free to flex and pull out of their base if haphazardly covered. However Swift does have a better construction than say Souris River . I have a Wilderness 18 with foam ribs..waiting for something to pop. I got it at an outfitters discount and have nothing to beach about if one does pop.

You need to bring some shop boats for sale and some libation ( remember PA's arcane beer buying rules) a comfy chair.. your blue barrel table top To the Western PA Solo Canoe event in JUne/ Do not come without the tabletop. We will send you home.. I lack leftover coroplast election signs but I sense a workshop led by you would be well attended especially if you have some leftover signs.

You need to chat with Dave Curtis.. He likely will have a cross section of his schedule which involves carbon kevlar and s glass. He too is anti foam. You will do well together

I have too many uncles of the Keewaydin 15. A nice boat I would be torn between the layup you chose and the one with Innegra and basalt( the Expedition Kevlar). Probably the latter I believe in the usefulness of gel coat..

The Carbon Fiber boats ( with foam core) are actually kind of nauseous to paddle IMO.. I paddled a Kee 16 and the interior pattern of the carbon innegra started waving at me and my stomach over time.. I couldnt bear to look at the exterior for the same reason. Upchuck is not what I want in a canoe..

 

[Guest]

If you choose a solo version of a small tandem in a lite layup, be sure it is stiff enough in the middle where it isn't designed to have a seat. This has been an issue in at least one case.

 

[Canotrouge]

Bob Helman have used foam ribs for long time and on boats that see a lot of class 3 ww rock gardens wile being loaded with gear w/o signs of failure. A 17.5 feet Slocan weight in at 60 pound ish and are tougher than any RX boat I've paddled. So I guess it all depends how it is built and who built it!!

 

[Jim Dodd]

Don't use Owen Cornings PINK Foam ! The one with the Pink Panther. Ask me how I know !

My first kevlar, I installed a 1/4" Pink foam bottom. I'll be replacing with an 1/8" Western Red Cedar core. As Time allows me to !

Jim

 

[BWCA66]

Forget the foam, use cherry veneer ribs.

 

[Magnus919]

Forget the foam, use cherry veneer ribs.

Going to bring some of those to PA in June, are ya?

 

[Canotrouge]

If I would be using wood, I wouldn't use cherry... Ash, white oak(not red), yellow cedar, huon pine, but not cherry or walnut or maple or poplar....

 

[Magnus919]

Yeah, a factory soloized Keewaydin 16 in Kevlar Fusion, lose one seat, add a second front thwart, still 40-ish lbs.

Pigmented cloth? Sage or Emerald over white waterline?

I'm all about the carbon-infused basalt innegra finish.

But those two-tone boats with pigmented cloth up top, champagne gel coat below, are just really easy on the eyes. In fact, yeah, I really like the sage-over-champagne look.

 

[Magnus919]

I grew up in PA so I remember the weird alcohol laws. The laws in NC have become remarkably better in that department since I expatriated to the old south. My contribution to the campfire in June will be of a decidedly local flavor.

 

[BWCA66]

Going to bring some of those to PA in June, are ya?

Gonna try, have the dates circled.

 

[BWCA66]

If I would be using wood, I wouldn't use cherry... Ash, white oak(not red), yellow cedar, huon pine, but not cherry or walnut or maple or poplar....

But cherry bends so well and gets better with age.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Cherry is nice. I have a 23 year old wood and canvas boat decked out in cherry outwales, and tiger maple decks and cherry seat.. Another ( my beatup tripping boat ) cherry inwales and outwales. Goes well with my tiger maple paddle.

Dragon Fly sports cherry outwales..so nice oiled. Eds Canoe has cherry seats..I have one boat tricked out in American Beech.

Ash is just miserable with coastal climates. It molds..those little black spots.

 

[frozentripper]

Just trying to kick some life back into whatever few remaining brain cells still dedicated to memory are available by means of caffeination, and IIRC sage and futurist Charlie Wilson has written that in theory, basalt/innegra/carbon are the state of the art materials currently available for canoe construction... in theory.

Here it is...

Swift's Innegra/Carbon boats are the top of the line builds using current state of the art lamination theory.


http://www.myccr.com/phpbbforum/view...basalt#p400355

So maybe, in theory the best of the best and in another CW comment, very new and prices likely to come down with time as more comes onto the market?

Yawl might have seen MEC's incredibly abusive and violent torture test on a NovaCraft Prospector which also was built with innegra, more flexible and resilient than carbon.. perhaps suitable for whitewater especially and Royalex comparisons and overkill for more sedate lake cruising?

Somewhere in the dim recesses are more comments that most expedition-grade composite canoes will be tough enough for tripping, so maybe overkill it is, and could light weight be the thing that adds value as time drags on... maybe that, with some reasonable amount of tripping durability built in, is what adds value and comfort most combined with capacity for repair.

Dunno really, when I bought a Ford, the saying was Drive One.

 

[Nodrama43]

Swift recommended (so did CW) the Kevlar fusion layup. I am going with the innegra interior that adds a pound and the two tone finish that adds a pound. With cherry tech package I should be at 33 pounds in a Shearwater, a little less in the Keewaydin 15. I am leaning towards the bigger boat.

 

[Guest]

my 2cents. I have owned and used many different solos and layups. Swift-kev-fus, Hemlock-premium, savage river-carbon lite layup/Kevlar with (gasp!)foam ribs and colden carbon/Kevlar. They all were tough and durable. The savage river amazed me after to nasty encounters with rocks. I think the workmanship and design count more than the latest material.
P.S. I have paddled the Kee 15 and shearwater. They are radically different. For my tastes the shearwater was huge and sluggish-but with great capacity. The Kee is lots more fun.
Turtle

 

[Alan Gage]

I suppose it depends on how you plan to abuse the boat. If abrasion is the worst it will see then does the layup really matter? Just protect it with skid plates and get the weight/price you can live with.

If dragging it loaded over obstacles or banging it off rocks I think I'd lean towards a layup that can flex and has some give to it; which would probably be kevlar/glass with no core. No core will probably add weight and maybe more money (might require more cloth?).

I look at all the foam core and foam ribbed boats that are out there and I've seen very little complaining on internet forums about failures. Either people don't use their canoes very hard or they're tougher than given credit for.

I believe Rob Kesselring has a 32 pound Savage River Deep Creek tandem that has seen well over 30 BWCA trips. One comment I heard him make was that it's a lot easier to be gentle to a boat that weighs 32 pound as opposed to 60. Meaning it's not much trouble to carry a 32 pound canoe over the rocks where you might be tempted to drag one that weighs 60.

Alan

 

[Canotrouge]

Good points Alan! I think if you don't run rapids with your canoe, then sky is the limit... But if you do run rapids with you canoe, then I think you will end up with a heavier layup. I know Kaz @ Millbrook boat make awesome ww canoes, I've owned one, and they are super light wait, but they don't take abuse w/o damage. Hit a rock the wrong way and you will have to do some work. That said, they will slide and scrape and hit rocks all day long w/o damage other than scratch, but hit hard the wrong way and to often and you will have fix them, they are not meant to be booffed off of rocks, they are made to be paddled precisely!

Like I said, I've own lots of composites ww canoes, and all have survived lots of abuse on class II and III rivers fully loaded, but they aren't 35 pounds canoes, the lightest one I have is a Composites Creation Expedition 16' and weight n at about 55lbs. Hellman Slocan are closer to the 60-65lbs for a 17.5' canoe.
Clipper prospector 17' in Kevlar Duraflex layup are not light crafts at 68lbs, but can take heck of a beating!!

 

[Bothwell Voyageur]

One comment I heard him make was that it's a lot easier to be gentle to a boat that weighs 32 pound as opposed to 60. Meaning it's not much trouble to carry a 32 pound canoe over the rocks where you might be tempted to drag one that weighs 60.

Alan

This is a really good point. Most of the abuse I used to see on camp canoes back in the UK happened because they were just too heavy for the kids to pick up. There was no way a 75lb kid could safely carry a 90lb canoe

 

[yellowcanoe]

If you foam cored boat hits something mid river coz you missed the unmarked and unblazed portage it fractures. Its very hard to fix. I have a lovely Wenonah that suffered some two dozen fractures in its foam core.. Really the structural integrity of the floor is compromised even though the cracks are filled with epoxy.
If another boat gets loose and wraps around a rock the foam core is hard to fix if it breaks.. Fortunately the Merlin bent the gunwales and did not crack the core.. it bent the Kevlar..

Ever since I have wanted another two pounds of carbon to offset the foam.