A New Seat for the Canoe

[Neophyte]

When I got my Trillium I ordered it with a pack seat. I was coming from kayaking and it seemed like a good idea at the time. And perhaps it was. But I never really loved it with a pack seat, so over this past winter I got a standard seat put in with seated drops. I’ve been waiting very impatiently for the weather to cooperate so I could get it on the water, and last Sunday was finally the day.

Here’s my set up and all my paddles. I got a little overly-enthusiastic with acquiring single-blade paddles, so I had a lot of new toys to try out.


Thoughts and observations in no particular order. In a bulleted list. It’s a personality trait.

• This was only the second time paddled in a canoe with seated drops. The first time was when I tested out a Magic, and the experience was very similar. I spent the first 30 seconds questions every decision I made in my life to get me to this point. After about a minute I settled in, and after a few hundred yards paddling I was loving it.
• I have a lot of work to do with my single blade technique. I was able to get into a rhythm occasionally, but consitency will take some time. I’ve learned from playing guitar that speed comes after getting your technique correct, so I’m trying to be patient.
• Speaking of patience, my wife and friend were way faster than me in their respective kayaks. Part of that was my technique and general lack of concern with getting left behind; after all, I could still see them and they waited for me. It does feel like the Trillium isn’t quite the canoe for keeping up in big open water. But I need more practice before I can say that definitively.
• The green dry bags are my ballast/extra weight. I’m 145 lbs, so I need some help keeping this thing stable with wind. I filled each with a little water and put one in front and one behind. When I was paddling back I was in a headwind (<10mph), so I moved the one behind me so both were in front. It seemed to work, but more experimentation is needed. Regardless the extra weight was definitely beneficial.
• Paddles and impressions.
  • Bending Branches Cruiser Plus 11 (50”). I grabbed this when I was up in the Adirondacks while I was testing out a Swift Cruiser 16. I’m definitely too small for the Cruiser, but he helped me size a bent shaft so I bought one. The Trillium probably isn’t the best canoe for switch, but it was fun.
  • Gray Owl Paddles Sagamore (Pretty sure I got the 62”). I believe it would be considered an ottertail, and this is the paddle I was the most excited about. I loved it.
  • Bending Branches Catalyst (54”) – Got this one so I would have a straight paddle and it was on sale. I got to use it when we paddled up a smaller creek. I perhaps should have gotten at 56”, but again...more testing needed.
  • I also have an Aquabound 250cm double blade paddle. It could perhaps be a little longer, but I'm going to focus on the other paddles for now so I'm not going to worry about.

And finally, the only picture I took while paddling. I’m not much of a photographer, I get distracted by paddling. That's my wife and friend waiting patiently for me. Or leaving me behind? Hard to tell.

 

[PortageW/Cerberus]

The Trillium is a very nice all-around boat but it's not quick. I have one with a drop seat and do sometimes swap out for a lower pack-style seat as well - however mine is probably 4" off the floor, much higher than Northstar's.

In terms of ballast: Boy howdy yes. These are tripping boats and are very different with some real weight. I'm always paddling with the dog, so ballasting the back to balance on day paddles. If I were you I'd play with it a bit - figure out how much water equals various weights and mark that on your bags...as you say, experiment. My guess is you like the boat a whole lot more with a total weight over 230ish, maybe even more; you are on the right track with trimming bow/stern based on wind.

All that said, I don't paddle the Trillium as much as I probably should. It is not my primary tripping boat anymore...but can't bring myself to part with it.

 

[tketcham]

You're a canoeist! Welcome to the cool crowd.

• have a lot of work to do with my single blade technique. I was able to get into a rhythm occasionally, but consitency will take some time. I’ve learned from playing guitar that speed comes after getting your technique correct, so I’m trying to be patient.
• Speaking of patience, my wife and friend were way faster than me in their respective kayaks. Part of that was my technique and general lack of concern with getting left behind; after all, I could still see them and they waited for me. It does feel like the Trillium isn’t quite the canoe for keeping up in big open water. But I need more practice before I can say that definitively.

"Practice makes perfect" is really more about "perfect practice makes perfect" so you're on the right track. I think that once you get comfortable (and efficient) using a bent shaft paddle you'll find it easier to keep up with recreational (as in non-racing) sea kayakers, even in that Trillium. Although not a cruiser, it's narrow enough to accommodate good hit-and-switch technique, which helps in maintaining speed.

As for the 54" vs 56" paddle length, I'm finding that a shorter paddle is easier on my shoulders and easier to do cross-forward maneuvers. But it depends on how tall you sit off the water. And consider that even though your Catalyst is relatively short at 54", the blade is only 19" tall so the shaft length is 35".

 

[stripperguy]

Congrats on coming to this side!!
I’m 5’9” and the same weight as you, I’ve been bent shaft paddling forever with a 48” paddle, much better for me with higher cadence.
Canoeing fast is a lot like cycling, higher cadence and lighter loading will be sustainable all day long, slower rates and heavier loads will eventually fatigue your muscles. For me, a longer paddle is slower to swing around, maybe for you too, you just don’t know it yet.
Anyway, have fun in your new toy.

 

[Neophyte]

The Trillium is a very nice all-around boat but it's not quick. I have one with a drop seat and do sometimes swap out for a lower pack-style seat as well - however mine is probably 4" off the floor, much higher than Northstar's.

In terms of ballast: Boy howdy yes. These are tripping boats and are very different with some real weight. I'm always paddling with the dog, so ballasting the back to balance on day paddles. If I were you I'd play with it a bit - figure out how much water equals various weights and mark that on your bags...as you say, experiment. My guess is you like the boat a whole lot more with a total weight over 230ish, maybe even more; you are on the right track with trimming bow/stern based on wind.

230 lbs! I'm gonna need a bigger ballast bag to get 80 lbs of water. I will definitely experiment more. I've found even 15-20 lbs makes a huge difference with the wind, I'm a sail without it. But you've encouraged me to try even more weight, thank you.

You're a canoeist! Welcome to the cool crowd.

"Practice makes perfect" is really more about "perfect practice makes perfect" so you're on the right track. I think that once you get comfortable (and efficient) using a bent shaft paddle you'll find it much easier to keep up with recreational kayakers, even in that Trillium. Although not a cruiser, it's narrow enough to accommodate good hit-and-switch technique, which helps in maintaining speed.

As for the 54" vs 56" paddle length, I'm finding that a shorter paddle is easier on my shoulders and easier to do cross-forward maneuvers. And consider that even though your Catalyst is relatively short at 54", the blade is only 19" tall so the shaft length is 33".

Thanks! I would not classify my paddling partners as recreational, they all have light touring kayaks that are quite fun to paddle. The blue Eddyline behind my canoe belongs to my wife, I guess I should have gotten her a slower kayak. I've got my work cut out for me for sure, but thank you for the encouragement. And we'll see how the Catalyst works out, I'm keen to try it on a river with some light rapids when the levels drops enough. I'll report back.

I read somewhere on these forums that I shouldn't stress too much about getting the right length first time around, because I'm going to be buying a lot more paddles anyways. That seems like it will be true.

Congrats on coming to this side!!
I’m 5’9” and the same weight as you, I’ve been bent shaft paddling forever with a 48” paddle, much better for me with higher cadence.
Canoeing fast is a lot like cycling, higher cadence and lighter loading will be sustainable all day long, slower rates and heavier loads will eventually fatigue your muscles. For me, a longer paddle is slower to swing around, maybe for you too, you just don’t know it yet.
Anyway, have fun in your new toy.

It occurs to me that I mentions my weight but not my height. I'm 6', so I have a few inches on you. Perhaps the 50" will be a good fit? I think once my switch gets better I'll be able to tell. Also, buying dress shirts when you're 6' and 145 lbs. is annoying.

 

[tketcham]

I would not classify my paddling partners as recreational, they all have light touring kayaks that are quite fun to paddle.

I shouldn't have used that term because of the association with a type of kayak. I meant it more as recreational (non-racing) sea kayaks. That Eddyline must move right along.

Also, I corrected my incorrect comment about paddle shaft length. (Doh!) And given that you're 3" taller than I, the 56" length might be about right. As you mention, time on the water will tell.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

230 lbs! I'm gonna need a bigger ballast bag to get 80 lbs of water. I will definitely experiment more. I've found even 15-20 lbs makes a huge difference with the wind, I'm a sail without it. But you've encouraged me to try even more weight, thank you.


Thanks! I would not classify my paddling partners as recreational, they all have light touring kayaks that are quite fun to paddle. The blue Eddyline behind my canoe belongs to my wife, I guess I should have gotten her a slower kayak. I've got my work cut out for me for sure, but thank you for the encouragement. And we'll see how the Catalyst works out, I'm keen to try it on a river with some light rapids when the levels drops enough. I'll report back.

I read somewhere on these forums that I shouldn't stress too much about getting the right length first time around, because I'm going to be buying a lot more paddles anyways. That seems like it will be true.


It occurs to me that I mentions my weight but not my height. I'm 6', so I have a few inches on you. Perhaps the 50" will be a good fit? I think once my switch gets better I'll be able to tell. Also, buying dress shirts when you're 6' and 145 lbs. is annoying.

At 5' 11", I mostly use a 48-50" bent shaft and a 54-56" straight - depending on which canoe I'm in and whether sitting or kneeling. But different torso and arm lengths are going to effect your sweet spot also. As already mentioned, you're likely to end up with an assortment of paddles. I have acquired a large collection from CL and Marketplace, modified a couple shaft lengths, and even made one from scratch (another in slow progress). It's a side effect of paddling.

 

[lowangle al]

230 lbs! I'm gonna need a bigger ballast bag to get 80 lbs of water. I will definitely experiment more. I've found even 15-20 lbs makes a huge difference with the wind, I'm a sail without it. But you've encouraged me to try even more weight, thank you.

It's good to experiment. I only use about 20-25 lbs in my big tandems and I paddle from the stern seat. I'm not shooting for a level trim though. I like to be bow light, sometimes I put the ballast midship when it's calm. When it's windy I'll put it far up in the bow. I found the extra weight gives me a little more stability and improves performance.

 

[Neophyte]

I shouldn't have used that term because of the association with a type of kayak. I meant it more as recreational (non-racing) sea kayaks. That Eddyline must move right along.

Also, I corrected my incorrect comment about paddle shaft length. (Doh!) And given that you're 3" taller than I, the 56" length might be about right. As you mention, time on the water will tell.

It's all good, I just wanted to clarify. My response may have been more pedantic than I meant.

I missed your incorrect paddle length, but when I was shopping for paddles I made sure to calculate the shaft length vs. overall length on all of them. (I made a spreadsheet, do you recall our shared love of spreadsheets from another thread?) Shaft length is something that isn't included on a lot of manufacture's websites, which I find surprising because it seems critical.

At 5' 11", I mostly use a 48-50" bent shaft and a 54-56" straight - depending on which canoe I'm in and whether sitting or kneeling. But different torso and arm lengths are going to effect your sweet spot also. As already mentioned, you're likely to end up with an assortment of paddles. I have acquired a large collection from CL and Marketplace, modified a couple shaft lengths, and even made one from scratch (another in slow progress). It's a side effect of paddling.

That's helpful thank you. It's good to have some confirmation from everyone here that I'm at least in the ballpark with the paddles I've collected. You've also prompted me to check marketplace, and there's a 56" paddle there that looks really nice. I've already spent a lot on canoes and accessories this year, so I may hold off. But thanks helping feed my canoe addiction?

@lowangle al - I love reading about paddling from the stern seat and how you make it work. I don't think I'll ever get a tandem to try it out as my wife and I both prefer to paddle solo.

 

[Neophyte]

I got out again. The weather was beautiful but they were calling for 10-15 mph winds. I was sitting on my back porch and there wasn’t even a hint of a breeze, so I talked everyone into joining me for a paddle. (I was lying to myself, I knew what would happen when we got to the lake.)

Boy was it windy. We were fine at the launch, but was we went further north the wind picked up significantly. It took me about 20 minutes of fighting until I remembered that I should move my weight behind me with a tailwind. I guess I had to learn about tailwinds separately from headwinds? As you can imagine that helped immensely.

Still, it was not a day for skill building with my new paddles. I started with the bent shaft and switched to the double blade about halfway through the paddle out. But it was a good day to test out the new seat in uncooperative conditions. I’ve been out in worse conditions with the pack seat setup, but I was curious how it would feel with seated drops, and I must say I’m pleased. I never once felt like I was at risk for taking a swim despite wind and waves from all angles. The Trillium is a great canoe, I definitely put it through it’s paces and it handles everything I throw at it.

Also, if you’re going to use dry bags with water as extra weight, you should make sure the dry bags are appropriately sealed, otherwise your ballast is going to end up on the bottom of your canoe. This is not the first time I’ve done this, and I wonder if I’m going to have to re-learn this every year. That would be annoying but sounds like something I would do.

I'm enjoying writing these so I'll probably check back in throughout the summer to share my progress, thanks for humoring my ramblings. Here's the only picture I managed to get yesterday. It was a beautiful paddle despite the wind.

 

[tketcham]

Shaft length is something that isn't included on a lot of manufacture's websites, which I find surprising because it seems critical.

I guess they figure we canoeists can quickly subtract blade length from paddle length in our heads. (That's what I had to correct.)

It would be handy for them to include what shaft length is, because I agree, it's probably more relevant than total length. I'd also like to see more manufacturers provide blade area and tip/edge thickness, which can noticeably affect how a blade performs.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Neophyte, congrats on your newly outfitted Trillium and single blade paddle purchases.

my wife and friend were way faster than me in their respective kayaks.

An experienced single blading canoeist in a 14.5' recreational hull will never be able to keep up with experienced double bladers in touring seakayaks.

switched to the double blade about halfway through the paddle out.

Don't. You will learn virtually nothing about riding a bicycle by continuing to ride a tricycle. In addition, a 14.5' recreational canoe hull, even if double bladed, will still not keep up with experienced seakayers.

Sorry. It took me only 50 years, 20 canoes and three seakayaks to figure these things out.

 

[Neophyte]

Thanks Glen. As I've learning more about hull shape over the past few years I've certainly come to the realization that the Trillium won't do everything I want to and I'll need another canoe at some point. But I'm keeping the Trillium regardless, there are some local rivers that it is still great for. I have six guitars, I don't know why I thought I'd get out of this hobby with only one canoe.

As far avoiding the double blade paddle, I recall you giving that advice elsewhere on these forum and it's something I've been keeping in the back of my head as I'm learning. It went pretty well on my first paddle...but sometimes discretion is the better part of valor. What I need to do is get a few paddles in by myself in better conditions, then I can leave the double blade behind.

 

[tketcham]

An experienced single blading canoeist in a 14.5' recreational hull will never be able to keep up with experienced double bladers in touring seakayaks.

True, I probably shouldn't have been quite so encouraging in my first reply. In my defense, I was thinking of a more leisurely pace in a sea kayak. One canoe that I know can keep up with fast sea kayakers is the Clipper Sea-1, but it's basically half kayak to begin with.

As I've learning more about hull shape over the past few years I've certainly come to the realization that the Trillium won't do everything I want to and I'll need another canoe at some point.

To help keep up with sea kayakers (or at least not fall too far behind), consider the GRB Classic, Savage River Blackwater, and Wenonah Advantage, or perhaps the Swift Cruiser 15.8. I've paddled the first three, not the Cruiser. You were on the right path in considering the Cruiser but canoes like the Trillium have their place in the quiver.

 

[Neophyte]

True, I probably shouldn't have been quite so encouraging in my first reply. In my defense, I was thinking of a more leisurely pace in a sea kayak. One canoe that I know can keep up with fast sea kayakers is the Clipper Sea-1, but it's basically half kayak to begin with.


To help keep up with sea kayakers (or at least not fall too far behind), consider the GRB Classic, Savage River Blackwater, and Wenonah Advantage, or perhaps the Swift Cruiser 15.8. I've paddled the first three, not the Cruiser. You were on the right path in considering the Cruiser but canoes like the Trillium have their place in the quiver.

I should give even more specific context. My wife is paddling an Eddyline Sitka ST, which is I guess considered a light touring kayak. It's 13'9" with a svelte 22.5" beam. So it's not a 16'+ sea kayak, but it does move. Perhaps that will make it easier to keep up with? Anyways, she has no problem waiting for me, she's game for a more leisurely paddle if that's what's called for.

I met Max Eaton after the ADK 90 this year, he took over for GRB Canoes. He was packing up when I arrived, but he took fifteen minutes or so to show me the GRB Classic and answer my questions about it. I should have scheduled another trip to the Adirondacks to test paddle, but when I emailed him a few months ago and he said I could have one by mid summer...I sent him a check for the down payment. I don't like spending money on myself, my wife usually has to talk me into it. And I definitely feel like I'm not good enough to have such a nice canoe. But I'm at the age where I can afford it and I'd rather have it now to enjoy while I can then fret over it for another decade.

 

[tketcham]

I met Max Eaton after the ADK 90 this year, he took over for GRB Canoes. He was packing up when I arrived, but he took fifteen minutes or so to show me the GRB Classic and answer my questions about it... I sent him a check for the down payment. I don't like spending money on myself, my wife usually has to talk me into it. And I definitely feel like I'm not good enough to have such a nice canoe. But I'm at the age where I can afford it and I'd rather have it now to enjoy while I can then fret over it for another decade.

Congrats! The Classic is a performance hull but has enough stability to forgive a bit of paddler error. It is a tripping canoe after all. I think it will get along well with the Sitka ST.

The Classic is actually a reasonably affordable canoe considering the alternatives and I hear you about living for the here and now. Rather than fretting for a decade or more, I think about how much it will cost per year if I can afford it now. Amortization is our friend.