Alan's Bloodvein II

Gamma1214 said:

Now that I've started some strips with that perfect edge, I'll agree that using a joiner is a great idea. I think it would allow me to slice up the entire 14 inch board without the edge becoming too wavy, and it makes it unnecessary to discard the first strip.

As for thickness planing; I don't do that. I'll cut the bead first and then force the strips between the shaper bit and a solid fence when I cut the coves. That uniforms strip width for me and saves a step.

I'm not saying that planing boards or starting with finished lumber isn't OK, I'm just trying to assure anyone interested that you don't need a lot of tools to build these boats. A shaper or router table (IMO) eliminates the need for a planer and, in a pinch, you can eliminate the need for a joiner by discarding the 1st strip (but you'll have to be more careful holding consistent pressure on the saw to follow the edge).

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Yes ! Running your strips between the fence and the bit !, for one eliminates the need to plane your planks. The Router does that for you, when you bead and cove.

Jim

Alan Gage said:

Some boards will move as you remove material as internal stresses are relieved. When I was using cottonwood those planks really tended to crook while cutting strips, despite being jointed before hand. I stopped 2-3 times during each plank for a quick run over the jointer to keep it true during the process.

Alan

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Honestly, when cutting strips you don't need a perfectly straight edge. You need one with a smooth enough line that your cutting jig of choice (including Tablesaw fences if that's your poison) can give you a consistent thickness coming off the blade. I haven't used the circular saw technique, but I'm surprised at the issue @Gamma1214 ran into with the edge going crazy like that.

I'm with Alan, I will often joint a plank more than once during ripping. A really good fence system will help. I stripped 20 planks yesterday, for the first hour I was getting very good results, but eventually I grew weary of the enforced torture and began rushing the process, and the inevitable narrow spots began to appear. That's always an indication that it's time to stop. But I didn't, so I will just live with the results.

Not sure about a shaper, but a router table does not ensure consistency of different width strips. The strips are generally held secure by some type of feather board, and the feather board will allow different widths to pass through. In my current process, I realized that I had cut some strips extra wide by turning the last bit of the plank the wrong way. After bead and coving, they were noticeably wider than the other strips. As much as I want to skip odious and time consuming steps, such as thickness planing, I find it best not to.

I use feather boards to hold the strip during the beading process but then back off the (blade side) guide on the infeed side of the shaper and replace it with a spring. I then install a stationary fence in place of the feather board. To prevent any binding, this fence stops just after the bit and another feather board holds the strip against the outfeed fence. I hope that makes sense... I think I took some pictures and I'll look for them in a bit... gotta see a girl about a horse (or 3)

memaquay said:

Not sure about a shaper, but a router table does not ensure consistency of different width strips. The strips are generally held secure by some type of feather board, and the feather board will allow different widths to pass through.

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The guys who use a router table to finish-width their strips are running the strip between the bit and the fence. Huge safety no-no in pretty much any other circumstance, but with cedar being so soft they get away with it.

sailsman63 said:

The guys who use a router table to finish-width their strips are running the strip between the bit and the fence. Huge safety no-no in pretty much any other circumstance, but with cedar being so soft they get away with it.

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That's essentially what I do except that I build a temporary fence (I use a scrap piece if square tubing), install a piece of 1/8 inch wire as a crowder that pushes the strip against the square tubing and then install a piece of aluminum angle where the wooden fence used to be. The angle is bent upward on the infeed side and fits just tight enough to keep the strips against the table.

In this picture, you can see the wire below the aluminum angle and the feather board that holds the strip against the table on the outfeed and also prevents the strip from kicking back. (feather board is just screwed into the wooden fence of the shaper).



It actually does a pretty nice job of uniforming the strips as can be seen on this video. Notice that the bit removes a lot more material near the beginning than it does at the end. (Sorry about the redirect off-site but video cannot be loaded directly onto CTN)

The guys who use a router table to finish-width their strips are running the strip between the bit and the fence. Huge safety no-no in pretty much any other circumstance, but with cedar being so soft they get away with it.

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I had forgotten about that, yes, that wouldn't fly in a school situation, Elmer the Safety Elephant would stomp the living sh!t out of the teacher who set it up, lol.

When I first saw this method? I though he was bead and coving strips, not planning strips.
I only use it to bead and cove strips. I still do.


Using the Skilsaw method of cutting strips, there is no need to plane the strips. They come out uniform enough, that planning is not necessary.

Jim

Jim Dodd said:

When I first saw this method? I though he was bead and coving strips, not planning strips.
I only use it to bead and cove strips. I still do.


Using the Skilsaw method of cutting strips, there is no need to plane the strips. They come out uniform enough, that planning is not necessary.

Jim

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He is bead-and-coveing. It's just that he cut his strips from a variety of planks that had inconsistent thicknesses, so the raw strips have slightly different widths. He's using the cove pass to even that out, instead of running the original planks through the planer before cutting the strips.

sailsman63 said:

He's using the cove pass to even that out, instead of running the original planks through the planer before cutting the strips.

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Correct. Some of the boards (like the one in the video) had quite a bit of thickness variation. I'm told it's common with band saws when the blade starts to dull.

One thing you'll want to watch if you have this much variation is the grain. The Larch (Tamarack) that I used on the Raven was much more uniform (it was cut on a circle saw) and those strips still exploded if I went against the grain. (Larch has been the most difficult wood that I've tried so far but it is absolutely gorgeous so I'll probably do that again)

I ran into problems getting the plans printed. I gave my architect friend the wrong scale so the plans are only 80% of actual size. I'm emailing him to see if he can enlarge them for this build but I've got a granddaughter now so I'm thinking I'll, someday, reduce spacing on the forms and build a kid-sized solo from the undersized plans.

I mean, more boats... why not?

Gamma1214 said:

I'm emailing him to see if he can enlarge them for this build but I've got a granddaughter now so I'm thinking I'll, someday, reduce spacing on the forms and build a kid-sized solo from the undersized plans.

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LOL. I had the same thought when I first saw the undersized plans.

Alan

Gamma1214 said:

I ran into problems getting the plans printed. I gave my architect friend the wrong scale so the plans are only 80% of actual size. I'm emailing him to see if he can enlarge them for this build

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If the plan-sizing saga continues on, would you consider hand-lofting? You only need a few points and a flexible spline. See this post for the last time I did this - I've recently started working on that set of forms again, and I'm very pleased with how precise and consistent the curves turned out.

Gamma1214 said:

I've got a granddaughter now so I'm thinking I'll, someday, reduce spacing on the forms and build a kid-sized solo from the undersized plans.

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Grandpa/Granddaughter matching mini-me canoes. That would be adorable.

sailsman63 said:

...would you consider hand-lofting?

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I'm pretty sure we've got it figured out (as long as Tom is willing to print them one more time) but I'd certainly consider lofting. I've done it for my paddle patterns (lofting data was provided by Warren & Gidmark).

It seems like it would be a lot of measurements to do a canoe... wouldn't I need to establish a stationary centerline and then measure (at precise angles) to points an inch or so apart, the entire length of the canoe for all 16 stations?

I can do 2D to 3D but collecting the data to reverse that process seems far more intimidating.

Hi Gamma, did a post for lofting here https://www.canoetripping.net/threads/lofting-canoe-molds-from-canoecraft-tables.129829/

you might find something useful there

Brian

Gamma1214 said:

It seems like it would be a lot of measurements to do a canoe... wouldn't I need to establish a stationary centerline and then measure (at precise angles) to points an inch or so apart, the entire length of the canoe for all 16 stations?

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You can do it that way - I've done it before - but you generally don't need that many points. @Alan Gage 's plans will have been created in a program that mimics the behavior of real life splines. You'll need one at the shoulder point, one at centerline, and maybe two additional along the curve. No fancy angle-measuring required: These points are located with basic XY cartesian coordinates. A carpenter's framing square is the most sophisticated instrument you need.

If you are familiar with computer graphics: The way you suggested (and Cruiser linked) would be "raster" lofting, whereas you can actually do "Vector" lofting, like the paths in SVG/Inkscape files or Adobe Illustrator and similar.

My architect friend indulged me once more and plans are now actual size. I've switched away from Walnut in favor of Sassafras for the accent strips & trim because the Walnut I had wasn't very nice, I had a wide Sassafras board that was a bit too warped to make paddles and the width of this hull should enable me to use the seat that I'd cut too short on the Raven. (use my mistakes to save time and effort on this build)

I got beads cut today and coves are started. I should be able to get the forms up and actually start building early next week but this weekend will be spent boiling down Maple & Black Walnut sap for syrup. (Yes, I actually make something traditional but I can't resist going rouge with the Walnut & Hickory syrups too)

Tapping trees and gathering maple sap has slowed down my progress this week as well. And the season has just started for us. Also crappy weather today. But looking to get outside this weekend to make strips and maybe bead and cove.

I spent quite a bit of time upstairs in the boat shop today. I got the strips done but I'll need to modify the set-up for the next boat.

Like the Tamarack and Cherry, the Tulip Poplar was prone to tearing out where the strip was really wide (thick part of the donor board) or if the grain changed direction. It wasn't nearly as bad as the Tamarack but some damaged areas will need cut out as I strip the hull.

It was almost enough to convince me that the next time I'll run the boards through a planer before stripping but then I realized that I may be able to avoid planing AND mitigate the strip damage while saving some labor as well.

I've been running through the shaper left-to-right and then carrying all the strips from the off-loading table back to the left side for the coving operation. Since the blade of the shaper is spinning clock-wise (if looking straight down on it), this means that the blade is cutting as it lifts the chips away from the strip. I think that, if I leave the strips on the right side table after cutting the beads and reverse the feed direction during the coving process, the blade will cut the coves by forcing the chip into the strip, drastically reducing the risk of tear-out.

NOTE: I did not notice this issue with the Aspen, White Pine or Sassafras, so it may never be an issue with softer woods like Cedar

While I'm sure OSHA and Mem's safety elephant would disapprove, the only drawback that I can see is that I'll have to devise a braking system for the strips as the blade rotation may try to launch them from the shaper. Another upside is that the chips will not pack in behind my crowder spring so I'll save some time there as well. (I needed to remove the guide and clear the chips from behind the spring every 20 strips or so as they'd wedge in pretty tightly and make it nearly impossible to push the next strip through)



I bought some spring-loaded crowders awhile ago and have only used one (barely visible on the left of the picture above). I think they can be used to hold the strips against the table of the shaper and provide some braking. We'll probably have to wait and find out on the next boat as the strips are done for this one.

Tomorrow I should be able to get the forms cut out, set everything else up and (maybe) even get a few strips on.

I'm looking forward to that.