Thunder boxes, are they good or bad?

I’m not sure where I remember these from, but I have visited toilets that used blue barrels with a lid, and the lid had a diamond shape cut out of it.
As someone who prefers traditional gear, I felt this was a fitting use for those fugly things.

I'm glad to hear that they aren't all bad, and can be a benefit. The limited experience I have is in the Adirondacks, and I've only seen two. One was on an island campsite that is part of the state park system where you reserve and pay for the campsite. This was after the season had closed, so there was no maintenance done for a while, and it appeared to be a popular spot. It was totally gross and I would never have used it. It also didn't appear to be a pit toilet, but needed to be pumped out like a job johnny, so that probably made a difference too. The other one I had seen was a wooden one, I didn't need to use it but my wife did, so it couldn't have been too bad.

I have used a lot of jobsite outhouses at work over the years and they were never that bad, even when pretty full. On the other hand, if I ever had to use one in a public park it was always terrible. I think a lot of it has to do with respect. If you know you will be using them repeatedly you take care not to mess it up, as apposed to someone in a park where it is a one time emergency. I assume the users of canoe route crappers fall into the respectful category.

A little bathroom humor side note here; At work when someone was doing their business in the "blue room" I would holler " Hey Joe, did I leave my sandwich in there? They would usually respond with an annoyed "No" I would follow with, "I ate it yesterday, could you look again?" Not everyone found it funny, but I did.

Glenn, if it has walls it's an outhouse, if not, a thunderbox, as I understand it.

As a 75 yo who doesn’t have the flexibility I once had I vote for thunder boxes. Although their presence always indicates the presence of more people which I prefer to avoid so many of my trips are shoulder season.

I hear you there. I've taken a 5 gallon bucket system on a few recent trips, one with portages, and it's surprisingly dodoable. It's mostly for my wife during skeeter season in Ak. and we only used it once, but there is no reason it can't be routine. That device Paddling Pitt used on his recent trip sounds even better.

Personally, I'm in favor of thunderboxes, at least in the ADKs in canoe camping areas with designated campsites. My view was confirmed two summers ago when I camped at (what I thought was) a beautiful site on Stony Creek Ponds only to find that once I stepped anywhere outside the immediate tenting area, there was toilet paper and feces almost anywhere I walked. Initially I couldn't understand it, as I assumed there was a thunderbox or privy at the site. After looking around, I realized there wasn't one. Unfortunately, there was so much of it around the site that I determined it would take too much time to clean-up the site (it was late in the afternoon and I was only staying one night) so I decided to move on. After my trip, I did notify the DEC about the situation. They were aware of the situation and indicated that there were plans to put thunderboxes at those campsites.

It seems to me that a significant number of people either don't know how to properly dispose of their waste or just don't care. The latter was the case this past summer when I stopped for lunch at a beautiful beach on Little Tupper Lake. After landing, taking out my lunch and walking down the beach looking for a nice place to sit, eat and enjoy the view, I came upon a wad of toilet paper and feces clearly visible on rise of ground just beyond on the back edge of the beach. Someone had landed, walked to the back of the beach (just off the sand) and did their business. Based on where it was, if someone were paddling by, the person would have been clearly visible while in the act. This time I took the trowel from my hygiene bag, scooped up their waste, walked back a good distance into the woods and buried it. I then enjoyed my lunch but couldn't help but thinking how insensitive this person had been.

These were not the only instances I seen this kind of thing and it seems like it has been getting worse over the last few years. I've been backpacking, paddling and camping in the ADKs for more than 50 years and I have never seen it to this degree. My feeling is that because of the increased usage, especially in easily accessible areas, something needs to be done. I feel that thunderboxes (as opposed to privies or doing nothing), are the best way to go. They are mostly inobtrusive and in my experience, the sites that have thunderboxes are the cleanest sites I have stayed at. For the most part, the DEC has done a commendable job locating them on the sites, maintaining them and moving them when necessary. Of course, visitor education is also important. DEC personnel such as the forest rangers and assistant forest rangers, along with stewards and others, should look for any and all opportunities to provide information and guidance to visitors.

I’ve given up on paddling this part of the Churchill River area because of all the poo and overuse. Its everywhere and I can’t keep the dog out of it. The rest of Saskatchewan, never a problem.
Hopefully this project is a success.

I normally reserve this line for my Texas relatives when discussing the weather but i just discovered a greater application.

’Im sorry you guys live in such a hostile environment”

up here it’s bad along any highway, at the pull outs but i have never found “any sign” while floating/camping on a river or when hunting off wheelers.

I've seen it at a few established campsites on canoe routes in Ak, but they don't get near as much use as popular places elsewhere. I can't imagine a campsite that gets used every day during the season not having one. Even if everyone used proper etiquette you might end up digging up someones crap without it.

Here in Vermont, open pits are being used more and more at dispersed camp sites. The "toilets" are temporary wooden frames with a platform and a five-gallon bucket with seat/lid sitting above an open pit. They provide buckets of wood chips to throw on the feces and urine so the pits act as compost piles. The ones I've used were fairly clean and the odor wasn't all that bad considering what was below me. The frames can be taken apart and moved to avoid having too much of a pile build up and the older pile is mixed well and set up for the final composting process.

NFCT in their stewardship work build campsites with privies. I'd call them thunderboxes but they have adopted the mouldering privy design instead of the pit type. Generally more pleasant.

I think they're a net positive when you're dealing with established campsites. I've been to far to many such sites that are just nasty. The Connecticut River Paddler's Trail has a privy at every site, and the sites I'm familiar with tend to be pretty small and constrained by brush and topography. Without the privies they'd be too gross even to stop at. Appalachian Trail is the same way. Privy at every shelter and that's a good thing. Regular maintenance is the key element.

lowangle al said:

Even if everyone used proper etiquette you might end up digging up someones crap without it.

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I've seen LNT trainers try the following demonstration: Split the class in half, give each sstudent a flag or a card. Let the first half into a primitive campsite area and place their marker on a likely looking spot o dig a cathole. Remove the markers and let the second half place their markers where they think they would llike to dig their cathole. Guess where they chose. Do you think there might be a lesson to learn?

There was an outhouse in the village where I grew up. Although I lived on a dead-end dirt road outside the village I spent half my time there. A friend and I would get into all kinds of good clean fun, exploring hay barns, playing pond hockey, climbing the old school roof...it all seemed pretty harmless stuff but I drew the line at tipping over Mr. Vansickle's outhouse. That just didn't seem right. Besides, in the 1960s some country privies were still in use, and I knew this one was. But my friend thought it was hilarious so he felt compelled to do it every Halloween night while I just settled for playing knock door run. So every All Hallows' Eve Ron would tip over the outhouse and every morning after poor old Mr. Vansickle would heft it upright again. I never did see the humour in it.
One October on an Algonquin PP canoe trip my wife and I arrived early to our basecamp destination. We'd chosen a particular island I'd spied on earlier trips as we'd paddled by tripping deeper into the park. The two sites on this island faced across a small channel towards shore, protected from offshore winds and paddlers' prying eyes. It was perfect. The backwater provided ideal conditions for calm morning swims and tranquil evening solos. The firepit was located in a clearing near the granite shore, a tent space easily found hunkered amongst the trees. But where was the thunderbox? Sometimes there'd be a sign posted on a bedraggled tree marking the trail 100' into the bush where you'd find the toilet, but here there was scant undergrowth and no tell-take signs of trodden paths. No sign, no trail, no toilet? So I explored. I should've explored sooner because my internal plumbing was telling me it was high time I went. It never occurred to me they'd place the pit toilet where they did but I eventually found it. In fact there were two of them, spaced about 50 yards apart. Two campsites, two thunderboxes? But they weren't thunderboxes. They were outhouses. That was odd? I'd never seen such a contraption in the backcountry. Why the walls? Who's gonna see you out here? Having climbed the hill I soon realized why. There was a dense canopy overhead and sparse understory beneath. The ground was carpeted with fallen leaves of bronze, scarlet, and gold. The blue skies pierced the skeletal branches still clinging onto some remaining leaves forming a natural tracery like stained glass in an Algonquin cathedral. The view from atop the hill was beautiful. I could see 2/3rds of the island perimeter, the other third hidden by a ragged cliff face looming over the shore. So obviously anyone seated on an open thunderbox would've had an impressive view, as well as being open to all to see. I stepped inside to answer the call of nature and found that some considerate tripper had left behind a roll or two of clean dry toilet paper. However, some inconsiderate mice had shredded it all to confetti. As decorative as it was it was useless to me, good thing I'd brought my own. As I sat wishing I'd had something to read I cast my mind back to my home village, and that sad old outhouse. I wonder, I thought, how far this outhouse would roll down this hill towards the lake before coming to a stop...with me in it?
When I got back to camp Miranda asked me "What the heck was all that laughing about!? What was so funny!!?"

lowangle al said:

I hear you there. I've taken a 5 gallon bucket system on a few recent trips, one with portages, and it's surprisingly dodoable. It's mostly for my wife during skeeter season in Ak. and we only used it once, but there is no reason it can't be routine. That device Paddling Pitt used on his recent trip sounds even better.

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Here’s a picture of the Reliance toilet, with foldable legs. Weighs five pounds. In the yellow dry bag, we have a trowel for digging and filling the cat hole, bear spray, bug repellant, toilet paper and paper bag for collecting the toilet paper to burn later. We like this system! The toilet lid opens and closes.

Watch out in the North Maine Woods, strange happenings around the outhouses. Actually, at the drive in campsites the outhouses are clean and there are many new ones. The Poland Pond canoe in campsite had a thunder box that was so old, it caved in.

That Reliance toilet is a better idea than the plastic bucket because you don't have to deal with the waste. With the bucket and bag system I haven't figured out what to do with the waste other than pack it out. It's doable for a short trip but not for more than a few days at most. I went with the bucket so it can be used inside the tent(as much as I hated the idea) to get away from the skeeters.

Throughout this thread I have kept getting the impression that others have seen and used these government-provided thunder boxes, outhouses, privies, toilets, boxes, buckets, etc., a lot more than I have during my life. And I wonder why.

Then it occurred to me that we haven't discussed the issue of timing—that is, how often am I even at a campsite when nature calls. For me, I believe the answer has far more been no than yes my entire paddling life, regardless of whether I've been on overnight or just day trips.

Nature calls me far more often when I'm paddling between campsites than when I'm in them. In such cases, I have always just pulled over to shore in a remote place, which is not a campsite, and properly done my business. These are also places where I sometimes bury the very little garbage I generate because I never leave garbage at a campsite.

This is all due in large part because I never spend much time in campsites. It's boring to me.

Always alone, I don't paddle to go camping. I live in the woods at home and chop wood all the time just to maintain my property. I don't like to cook, or do camp chores, fish, or just hang around some piece of campsite land, especially a highly used one, all day doing nothing. I go paddling to paddle.

Usually, I pull into a campsite or not-campsite late, boil water for a dehydrated meal, read some, go to sleep, wake up, eat a dehydrated meal for breakfast, and get back on the water. I'm in campsites for less than 12 hours a day. It's just a place to sleep, like a cheap motel on a road trip.

Consequently, at least according to my digestive and alimentary organs, nature calls most often happen when I'm out on the water during paddling time. Understand, "paddling time" always includes stops, rests, sunning on shores or rocks, making tea, taking side hikes, exploring—but none of these daily activities are occurring at a government campsite. Yet nature may call.

It's the same on virtually all day paddling trips. There is rarely a toilet facility at the places I launch, so nature calls have almost always occurred at non-governmental, non-campsite places even during these four to eight hour round-trip day ventures—even during my local day trip five miles from my house. If necessary, I just pull into any one of dozens of little shore spots on the river/lake, which fishermen and power boaters never stop at and are not privy to . . . and do my private business . . . without thunder . . . and leaving no trace.

I realize that most other people probably spend far more time at government campsites than I do, engaging in camping activities, and enjoying themselves while doing so. People spend time, like money, in different ways.

Well Glenn, now that you know how nice some of these privies are you can always stop at someone elses campsite when you're underway and just inform them that you are only stopping by to use the facilities.

Obviously, I'm very late to this conversation but my reasons for liking thunderboxes include...
1. With advancing age, and bad knees, doing the old "squat & balance" isn't particularly easy; or steady.
2. Balance has always been an issue for me so even before my knees were shot, it was always a precarious situation squatting over a hole.
3. It seems that more & more toilet paper florets are blooming at backcountry campsites; and it's even worse when no thunderbox is on site. If you can make going #2 easier for people (i.e. providing a thunderbox), they'll use what's provided. At least that's been my experience.

That's all for now. Take care and until next time...be well.

snapper

This has been a most entertaining thread for me and while a agree with some and laugh at some of the replies, @Glenn MacGrady’s recent submission takes the cake. Probably because this is exactly the way i would have replied; if i were as eloquent as him!

The thread has also shown me that winter affects folks the same, to a certain degree; no matter where you are.

And with this mention of winter i better get out there and plow the recent 10 inches that fell last night. No Thunder boxes will be harmed as i zing around the property on my Wheeler!