First Canoe

[WoodsNWaters]

I was going to make each strip long on one end and short on the other but figured it makes every strip fussy. Seems easier to make one strip short at both ends then add the long strip on the other side. Alternating sides, of course. I stapled one strip but haven't cut the ends yet.

My thinking above was wrong. Now I have to get the short strip -- the first of the pair -- cut to exact length for the entire canoe. After I glue the short strip down, there's really no chance to saw the bevel to match the long strip. The bead of that short strip is glued down into the cove of the previous strip and sawing down into a cove isn't gonna work*. Stapling appears to tighten everything up so the length of an unstapled strip is inexact.

I just read a post by @Gamma1214 about building "Raven". His method there was each strip had a short end which was beveled, and a long end which bypassed the opposite side's beveled end. Courses were swirled left then swirled right, left, right. (My words, not his.)

Re-do.

The Weldwood Professional Wood glue on the beveled ends of the first strip broke apart easily after a couple of hours. This saves the long strip but I'll need to scarf another full-length strip.

* A) Saw then X-acto-knife? B) Saw then Dremel? C) Glue and staple as far as the last lateral form then saw? D) Doesn't matter this boat is turning around. Each strip will have a short end and a long end.

 

[Alan Gage]

You do what you gotta do to in order to make it make sense in your own head but it seems to me you are going about this about the hardest way possible.

Lay the first strip and let it run long. Use a pull saw, with the beveled stem as a guide, and cut the angle on the end of the first strip. Lay the second strip and let it run past the first strip. For your next course the short strip will be on the opposite side of the hull so it will alternate back and forth.

I'm hardly one to stick hard and fast to convention but that's generally how it's done and I've never seen a good reason to deviate.

Alan

 

[WoodsNWaters]

Your method is what I decided I have to do.

With all the build threads available, I didn't see much about two bevels on one strip vs. one bevel per strip. That's why I mentioned the Raven thread which clearly explained it.

So far its only the first strip on each side. That's where I saw that long and short strips would be trouble later.

The one book I have that covers stemless builds puts 5 or 6 strips on one side then 5 or 6 on the other. I want to avoid that.

 

[Gamma1214]

I do it as Alan describes. Typically, the 1st strip is the hardest but it's not critical since it'll be hidden under the gunwales anyway. I use a scrap piece to check my angle before gluing it down.

 

[Cruiser]

Staples!

View attachment 157152

I ended up moving only two forms. The battens and the straight-edge were valuable in different ways for finding and measuring the problems.

I was going to make each strip long on one end and short on the other but figured it makes every strip fussy. Seems easier to make one strip short at both ends then add the long strip on the other side. Alternating sides, of course. I stapled one strip but haven't cut the ends yet.

USPS delivered two glues yesterday: Titebond Extend Wood Glue and Titebond II Extend Wood Glue. TB E says do not use below 40F while TB II E says do not use below 60F. After mid-November, the basement won't have heat which usually means 50F (10C) into April. I can start heating some in March but not a lot and don't expect fast results.

I don't have any wood glues that make any claims for gap filling. Seems like the stemless ends of the first two strips are where I'd need that most. Or maybe I just need to spend more time cutting the angle right.

Dave

I found that using the stemless method created some gaps and such as well, I ended up just doing my best and cleaned it up at the end.

There were a few gaps, a few tears and I ended up waiting till the end when I usually go around fixing imperfections, for the stemless areas I just filled (before any cleanup) with colour matched, thickened eopxy .... followed by routine shaping directly (green) after it setup. The flaws just seem to disappear.

Brian

 

[Alan Gage]

There were a few gaps, a few tears and I ended up waiting till the end when I usually go around fixing imperfections, for the stemless areas I just filled (before any cleanup) with colour matched, thickened eopxy .... followed by routine shaping directly (green) after it setup. The flaws just seem to disappear.

Somewhere I have before and after closeup pictures of one of my stems that had bigger gaps than Cletus's smile and you really can't tell at all after filling with thickened epoxy and shaping. I don't have the time to dig for them now, maybe later.

 

[Jim Dodd]

Here is my very simple method. It works great !
Pearl

 

[WoodsNWaters]

The strip below the top strip is on. (Strip above the top strip on the forms.) The first piece surprised me with how much squeeze-out came from such a small bead of glue. The piece butted to that was tidier but left me wondering if there was enough glue. The rest of this layer has occasional squeeze-out.

A putty knife chipped off blobs of squeeze-out easily after an hour or so. This is Titebond II Extend because I figured I'd be futzing with it.

I removed two staples to adjust the bead tighter into the cove and re-stapled. The end bevels are better on the second course than on the first. And easier with more visual clues to the various angles.

I was also surprised at how much the two layers of cedar can bow away from each other within the foot between forms. I wrapped in masking tape but will look for small clamps to make something like "Jimmy" clamps.



I need to be more careful selecting strips. Only after I was done did I notice that a section was flush on the outside but not on the inside. One piece was thinner. It has saw marks and I decided to put them on the inside of the boat. I should have realized it would be thinner. My measure of the first strip is 0.251". Most of this new piece is full thickness but 3' of it in the middle taper down to 0.211".

The difference of 0.040" is slightly more than 1 mm. I have the technology to fill this space with cedar but probably won't.

Looking down on the cove of the thinner strip and the in-focus cove of the thicker strip.



Looking at the inside surface of the two strips. I should have realized.



The darker strips you see on some annular rings are burn. They sand off. IDK if they will sand off evenly or not. They are often just a few feet long on an 8' piece.

 

[WoodsNWaters]

Here is my very simple method. It works great !
Pearl

Thanks. I've seen your great Pearl thread.

While it tells how you dealt with each end, it doesn't tell how the two ends of any one strip are treated. Or maybe it does if the word "alternating ends" has more scope than I think you intended but not as much scope as it possibly could. @Gamma1214 recognizes that writing precisely and clearly about these is work.

I quickly saw the error of a strip with two bevels paired with a strip with none. But not everyone really read that post.

I have tried both the chainsaw file and rat-tail file. I prefer a rat-tail such as the one you use. The results are similar but the coarser teeth work faster and leave a smooth-enough cross-cove. These two files are the same diameter (which is larger diameter than my chainsaws).

Searching for such a thing is beyond my abilities. The vocabulary turns up in more threads that have nothing to do with stemless builds, let alone stemless builds with interleaved strips. I could page through all the builds to see which are which . . .

 

[Jim Dodd]

Using an inner stem. You are gluing the strip to the inner stem, as well as the strip on the other side.
I start with one on one side, two on the other.

From there it's two strips to a side. One runs past the end, and gets notched. The other trimmed, to match the bevel on your inner stem. Then switch sides

Sorry for the confusion ! I should have paid more attention to the Teacher in English class !

Seems everyone has their own method ! Hope you find one that works !

Glue squeeze out, is more of an issue, when you get to the inside. I have cursed myself several times, until I decided to minimalize my glue !

Jim

 

[Fourbtgait]

I like any obvious saw marks on a strip on the exterior.
Much easier to sand off.

 

[WoodsNWaters]

Using an inner stem. You are gluing the strip to the inner stem, as well as the strip on the other side.
I start with one on one side, two on the other.

From there it's two strips to a side. One runs past the end, and gets notched. The other trimmed, to match the bevel on your inner stem. Then switch sides

Sorry for the confusion ! I should have paid more attention to the Teacher in English class !

Seems everyone has their own method ! Hope you find one that works !

Glue squeeze out, is more of an issue, when you get to the inside. I have cursed myself several times, until I decided to minimalize my glue !

Jim

It's stemless. The forms are for a build with stems so I added stems to the form. I am not gluing to the stems.

Your description includes the nouns "strip" and "side" then in the next two sentences the subject nouns are "one" and "other". Substituting a more concrete noun we get: "one strip runs past the end and gets notched. The other strip (gets) trimmed." Looks like long strips and short strips to me. Could be "side" instead of "strip". You may be referring to ends, but didn't really write that.

For a clear explanation of both ends of each strip, please see what @Gamma1214 wrote about the Raven build here.

I'll note that the same page about Raven has multiple areas of re-work and no comments on it at all. I removed one strip, scarfed on a bit more, and re-stapled it and I'm "going about this about the hardest way possible".

@Fourbtgait
Thank you. That is useful.

 

[stripperguy]

I've been watching (reading) from the sidelines...
We do indeed have our preferred methods, whatever works for each builder is a function of experience, abilities and aspirations. It's the misalignment of aspirations and abilities that lead to frustration. Those frustrations fade away with more experience. Or maybe the expectations are lessened?
Anyway, I mostly build stemless, however, I do not alternate sides.
I strip one side from sheer to keel, actually beyond the stems and keel line, then trim to the keel line. I trim off the longer than needed strips at the stems to match the angle that the 2nd side strips will create at the stems. Final trimming of the stems is a simple step after that.
A few pics will help illustrate.

 

[Gamma1214]

Wow SG, You've been coaching me online for 7-8 years now and I had no idea that you did it that way (or that it was even possible).

"Different strokes" indeed.

 

[Jim Dodd]

SG, did you have any trouble with twisted stems ?
Stripping all the one side, gave me concerns, that I might distort the position of the Stem forms.
Giving a twisted look.
Also, how did you bevel the strips on the first side ?

Jim

 

[stripperguy]

SG, did you have any trouble with twisted stems ?
Stripping all the one side, gave me concerns, that I might distort the position of the Stem forms.
Giving a twisted look.
Also, how did you bevel the strips on the first side ?

Jim

Jim,
I've never had an issue with the stems shifting position when stripping one side only. I make sure my stem forms are firmly attached and stiff in all three planes. I sometimes attach a temporary strip or two to the 2nd side, to ensure a rigid set up. A buddy of mine uses (used, he passed away in 2019) the same method and screwed up a Wee Lassie II, he ultimately gave that boat away and built another without the distorted stems.

1st side becomes beveled as it is cut. The upside down saw is guided by the stem form and the 1st form (or last form) and cuts that profile. Care must be used to hold the business end of the blade parallel to the path of the 2nd side strips.
I will admit, there's usually a funky transition from beveled 1st side strips and the straight keel line cut strips. Other than that, it's a pretty quick and easy method.

Once the 2nd side is fully stripped, the excess at the stems is cut back, perpendicular to the keel line. Admittedly, that stem joint ends up offset by a half strip from the true stem centerline. The builder is usually the only one that notices.

Which brings up a final note in my blathering:
An artist only sees the flaws in his work, while others see only the beauty...

Gamma, sorry man. I thought my build threads showed everything.