What leg to push off of. Effect of heeling on forward velocity.

[lowangle al]

I'm not unfamiliar with carving away from the side of my lean like Marc describes, but it is something I have to make a conscious effort to achieve. I also agree that different hull shapes will react differently to leaning, but as a general rule I think the same hull that carves away from the lean will also carve towards it with a different trim and lean.

My theory is that a modern solo boat can either turn towards or away form a lean depending on trim and lean.

I would also like to attend a freestyle clinic. I'd like to add to what I'm currently doing and not replace it.

 

[tketcham]

This discussion has reinforced my thoughts regarding turning a canoe with a heel vs carving and how it relates to carving a ski(s), which is how my brain thinks of carving. My conclusion is that there are two ways that canoes "carve" a turn and they rely on different aspects of canoe design and hull shape. Whether a canoe is carving in the first sense (turning towards the heel) depends on its hull profile when heeled, and carving in the second sense (turning away from the heel)* depends on whether (and how much) the bow and stern stems extend into the water when heeled.

* "Carve. A deflected turn away from a heel, caused by differential entry edges and forces."
(Freestyle Canoeing: Contemporary Paddling Technique; Glossary of Freestyle Terms; 1996; Lou Glaros and Charlie Wilson.)

* "We can heel the hull... outside, away from the turn, starting the stems to carving."
(Freestyle Canoeing: Contemporary Paddling Technique; Part III, Chapter 10. Solo Freestyle Maneuvers, page 78; 1996; Lou Glaros and Charlie Wilson.)

* “[At the bow] the heeled down side intersects the water at a greater angle than the up side, and deflects the leading stem towards the side of less resistance.”
(Freestyle Instruction Manual Ch. 4 Pg. 6 Copyright 1995 CEW)

My alpine and Nordic skiing background has me thinking of carving a canoe (first sense) as heeling the boat towards the turn to narrow up the hull and produce a profile that very crudely mimics the shape of a fat powder ski. The narrower inside “edge” profile of the canoe carves into the water, acting like the compressed camber of a ski. Sharp edges (i.e., hard chines) might make the turn easier but are not required, thus there's a fair amount of skidding that occurs.

The other way that a canoe carves (second sense) works best when the stems, particularly the bow stem, remain in the water when heeled. The more stem that projects into the water the more powerful the carve. Narrow stems act like a tipless ski (with two bases) set sideways in the water. When vertical (sideways) it just keeps the canoe pointed forward, like a skeg, but when tipped to one side or the other it now acts like a high angle ski and carves away from the heel, using the pressure of water against the stem (ski base) to accentuate the carve. I think that’s why it feels natural to push down with my foot to emphasize the heel; it feels like I’m weighting a carving ski. And pulling up on the opposite foot feels like I’m unweighting the inside ski in a turn. In this case, the heeled profile of the hull is less important because the stems, especially the bow stem, is doing most of the carving, not the hull, and the stern stem is both carving and skidding into the turn, much like the tail of a ski.

So non-rockered canoes will have a much different response to heeling than a rockered canoe because of how much stem remains in the water. The stems act like a ski carving a turn and because the stems are oriented roughly 90 degrees to the hull they counter somewhat the yaw effect. That also may explain why a slim, non-rockered canoe tends to have less ability to turn into the heel, the stems continue to influence the forces acting on the canoe hull. Depending on hull profile and length, there is a wide range of effects; it’s all relative.

That’s how I think of carving a canoe. I use carving in the second sense to subtly offset the yaw effect when paddling a fast solo touring canoe. Flame on!

The following diagram shows what I believe is the difference between a typical hit-and-switch forward stroke with no heel vs a hit-and-switch forward stroke using a subtle carve to partially offset yaw.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

This discussion has reinforced thoughts I've had regarding turning a canoe with a heel vs carving and how it relates to carving a ski(s), which is how my brain thinks of carving. My conclusion is that there are two ways that canoes "carve" a turn and they rely on different aspects of canoe design and hull shape. Whether a canoe is carving in the first sense (using a heel) depends on its hull profile when heeled, and carving in the second sense (Freestyle Instruction Manual Ch. 4 Pg. 6 Copyright 1995 CEW) depends on whether (and how much) the bow and stern stems extend into the water when heeled.

My alpine and Nordic skiing background has me thinking of carving a canoe (first sense) as heeling the boat towards the turn to narrow up the hull and produce a profile that very crudely mimics the shape of a fat powder ski. The narrower inside “edge” profile of the canoe carves into the water, acting like the compressed camber of a ski. Sharp edges (i.e., hard chines) might make the turn easier but are not required, thus there's a fair amount of skidding that occurs.

The other way that a canoe carves (second sense) works best when the stems, particularly the bow stem, remain in the water when heeled. The more stem that projects into the water and the narrower the hull profile, the more powerful the carve. Narrow stems act like a tipless ski (with two bases) set sideways in the water. When vertical (sideways) it just keeps the canoe pointed forward, like a skeg, but when tipped to one side or the other it now acts like a high angle ski and carves away from the heel, using the pressure of water against the stem (ski base) to accentuate the carve. I think that’s why it feels natural to push down with my foot to emphasize the heel; it feels like I’m weighting a carving ski. And pulling up on the opposite foot feels like I’m unweighting the inside ski in a turn. In this case, the heeled profile of the hull is less important because the stems, especially the bow stem, is doing most of the carving not the hull, and the stern stem is both carving and skidding into the turn, much like the tail of a ski.

So non-rockered canoes will have a much different response to heeling than a rockered canoe because of how much stem remains in the water. The stems act like a ski carving a turn and because the stems are oriented 90 degrees to the hull they counter the carving effect of the hull. Depending on hull profile and length, there is a wide range of effects; it’s all relative.

That’s how I think of carving a canoe. I use carving in the second sense to subtly offset the yaw effect when paddling a fast solo touring canoe. Flame on!

Not enough coffee in me yet to follow your text, but the diagram looks right to me.

 

[lowangle al]

This discussion has reinforced thoughts I've had regarding turning a canoe with a heel vs carving and how it relates to carving a ski(s), which is how my brain thinks of carving. My conclusion is that there are two ways that canoes "carve" a turn and they rely on different aspects of canoe design and hull shape. Whether a canoe is carving in the first sense (using a heel) depends on its hull profile when heeled, and carving in the second sense (Freestyle Instruction Manual Ch. 4 Pg. 6 Copyright 1995 CEW) depends on whether (and how much) the bow and stern stems extend into the water when heeled.

My alpine and Nordic skiing background has me thinking of carving a canoe (first sense) as heeling the boat towards the turn to narrow up the hull and produce a profile that very crudely mimics the shape of a fat powder ski. The narrower inside “edge” profile of the canoe carves into the water, acting like the compressed camber of a ski. Sharp edges (i.e., hard chines) might make the turn easier but are not required, thus there's a fair amount of skidding that occurs.

The other way that a canoe carves (second sense) works best when the stems, particularly the bow stem, remain in the water when heeled. The more stem that projects into the water and the narrower the hull profile, the more powerful the carve. Narrow stems act like a tipless ski (with two bases) set sideways in the water. When vertical (sideways) it just keeps the canoe pointed forward, like a skeg, but when tipped to one side or the other it now acts like a high angle ski and carves away from the heel, using the pressure of water against the stem (ski base) to accentuate the carve. I think that’s why it feels natural to push down with my foot to emphasize the heel; it feels like I’m weighting a carving ski. And pulling up on the opposite foot feels like I’m unweighting the inside ski in a turn. In this case, the heeled profile of the hull is less important because the stems, especially the bow stem, is doing most of the carving not the hull, and the stern stem is both carving and skidding into the turn, much like the tail of a ski.

So non-rockered canoes will have a much different response to heeling than a rockered canoe because of how much stem remains in the water. The stems act like a ski carving a turn and because the stems are oriented 90 degrees to the hull they counter the carving effect of the hull. Depending on hull profile and length, there is a wide range of effects; it’s all relative.

That’s how I think of carving a canoe. I use carving in the second sense to subtly offset the yaw effect when paddling a fast solo touring canoe. Flame on!

The following diagram shows the difference between a typical sit-and-switch forward stroke with no heel vs a forward stroke using a subtle carve to partially offset yaw.

View attachment 151061

I couldn't find the Freestyle Instruction Manual is I'm not exactly sure if I'm following you correctly. I do agree with the premise that carving depends on how far the stems extend into the water when heeled. With a flat trim I've noticed a turning away from the lean, but I've never leaned away from my paddle side to see if it counteracts Yaw. I assume it would.

When I compare how a ski carves to a canoe I see three ways to weight your ski. You can front load it and carve with the tip or load the center and carve with that and you can also turn with your tails. In all three cases the ski will turn in the same direction. What I find in a canoe is that if I'm bow heavy it will carve towards the side of the lean.(bow pinning) If I'm stern heavy it will also carve towards the side of the lean, but with a flat trim it will turn away from the lean.

I think I get way more carving action with my stern to offset yaw, then I could by leaning away with a flat trim. When I'm carving with the stern I have to control my lean or I can turn too much towards the paddle side, requiring me to add a sweep to stay on track. I'm always balancing my carve (trim and lean), my stroke and the wind to minimize correction strokes.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Marc defines a carve in his article as simply a heel to the outside of the turn. It sounds like you are using “carving” to describe something happening even when heeled to the inside of the turn, so there is some discrepancy in how the term is being used.

Yes, this is one of the many examples in canoeing where we have terminology differences that end up confusing communication. Sometimes there are many different words to describe the same canoe stroke or move, and sometimes (as here) we have the same word ("carve") describing two different heeling turns.

When I learned serious whitewater canoeing 45 year ago, heeling into a turn was called a "pivot" turn and heeling away from a turn was a "carved" turn. Virtually all whitewater canoeists used pivot turns for all maneuvers, but we were aware that low rocker flat water canoes (and sea kayaks) responded better to carved turns.

Later on the internet, I began hearing some folks refer to inside heeled turns as carving with no particular word for outside heeled turns, unless they used "carve" for both inside and outside heels. Somewhere in between I learned that freestyle had developed its own lingo, which calls an inside heel turn an "axle" and an outside heel turn a "post" (accompanied by a specified paddle placement).

Finally, we had influencers such as Tom Foster (mainly in whitewater) and then Charlie Wilson (mainly in flat water) advocating and teaching the "inside circle forward stroke." In this quasi-forward stroke, the hull is induced to "carve" toward the paddle side and then this yaw is counterbalanced by an uncorrected forward stroke, making the canoe go quasi-straight without any need for correction. (I keep saying "quasi" because the canoe is actually traveling along the curved circumference of a very large circle, and must be kicked slightly in the other direction periodically.) However, the confusing point is that some hulls in the Foster/Wilson stroke will "carve" better toward the paddle with an inside heel while other hulls will "carve" better with an outside heel. The difference, generally speaking, is most pronounced between high and low/no rocker hulls.

@lowangle al suggests that weight distribution can affect whether the hull naturally prefers to pivot turn or carve turn, to use the terminology I originally learned. I suppose that's possible because altering trim can alter the waterline profile of the hull.

 

[tketcham]

I couldn't find the Freestyle Instruction Manual

I added some excerpts from Freestyle Instruction Manual and Freestyle Canoeing: Contemporary Paddling Technique in my previous post which may help to explain what I'm referring to.

I think I get way more carving action with my stern to offset yaw, then I could by leaning away with a flat trim.

I think that's where the combination of hull and stem profile makes the difference; a narrow hull with deep stems will have a greater tendency to carve (turn) to the offside.

 

[yknpdlr]

Charlie Wilson (mainly in flat water) advocating and teaching the "inside circle forward stroke."

I have often heard Charlie say that heeling presents a "banana" shape of the hull to the water, opposing the paddle yaw with an offside heel. I find most of my solo canoes respond to a turn better with an outside heel in the turn with proper trim. In some I can hear the stern "break lock" as it slides on the surface while the bow tracks around the turn. With the exception of my zero rocker SR Blackwater, it doesn't seem to care which way I heel it either to counter yaw or to perform a fairly tight turn.