What leg to push off of. Effect of heeling on forward velocity.

[lowangle al]

I'm not unfamiliar with carving away from the side of my lean like Marc describes, but it is something I have to make a conscious effort to achieve. I also agree that different hull shapes will react differently to leaning, but as a general rule I think the same hull that carves away from the lean will also carve towards it with a different trim and lean.

My theory is that a modern solo boat can either turn towards or away form a lean depending on trim and lean.

I would also like to attend a freestyle clinic. I'd like to add to what I'm currently doing and not replace it.

 

[tketcham]

This discussion has reinforced thoughts I've had regarding turning a canoe with a heel vs carving and how it relates to carving a ski(s), which is how my brain thinks of carving. My conclusion is that there are two ways that canoes "carve" a turn and they rely on different aspects of canoe design and hull shape. Whether a canoe is carving in the first sense (using a heel) depends on its hull profile when heeled, and carving in the second sense (Freestyle Instruction Manual Ch. 4 Pg. 6 Copyright 1995 CEW) depends on whether (and how much) the bow and stern stems extend into the water when heeled.

My alpine and Nordic skiing background has me thinking of carving a canoe (first sense) as heeling the boat towards the turn to narrow up the hull and produce a profile that very crudely mimics the shape of a fat powder ski. The narrower inside “edge” profile of the canoe carves into the water, acting like the compressed camber of a ski. Sharp edges (i.e., hard chines) might make the turn easier but are not required, thus there's a fair amount of skidding that occurs.

The other way that a canoe carves (second sense) works best when the stems, particularly the bow stem, remain in the water when heeled. The more stem that projects into the water and the narrower the hull profile, the more powerful the carve. Narrow stems act like a tipless ski (with two bases) set sideways in the water. When vertical (sideways) it just keeps the canoe pointed forward, like a skeg, but when tipped to one side or the other it now acts like a high angle ski and carves away from the heel, using the pressure of water against the stem (ski base) to accentuate the carve. I think that’s why it feels natural to push down with my foot to emphasize the heel; it feels like I’m weighting a carving ski. And pulling up on the opposite foot feels like I’m unweighting the inside ski in a turn. In this case, the heeled profile of the hull is less important because the stems, especially the bow stem, is doing most of the carving not the hull, and the stern stem is both carving and skidding into the turn, much like the tail of a ski.

So non-rockered canoes will have a much different response to heeling than a rockered canoe because of how much stem remains in the water. The stems act like a ski carving a turn and because the stems are oriented 90 degrees to the hull they counter the carving effect of the hull. Depending on hull profile and length, there is a wide range of effects; it’s all relative.

That’s how I think of carving a canoe. I use carving in the second sense to subtly offset the yaw effect when paddling a fast solo touring canoe. Flame on!

The following diagram shows the difference between a typical sit-and-switch forward stroke with no heel vs a forward stroke using a subtle carve to partially offset yaw.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

This discussion has reinforced thoughts I've had regarding turning a canoe with a heel vs carving and how it relates to carving a ski(s), which is how my brain thinks of carving. My conclusion is that there are two ways that canoes "carve" a turn and they rely on different aspects of canoe design and hull shape. Whether a canoe is carving in the first sense (using a heel) depends on its hull profile when heeled, and carving in the second sense (Freestyle Instruction Manual Ch. 4 Pg. 6 Copyright 1995 CEW) depends on whether (and how much) the bow and stern stems extend into the water when heeled.

My alpine and Nordic skiing background has me thinking of carving a canoe (first sense) as heeling the boat towards the turn to narrow up the hull and produce a profile that very crudely mimics the shape of a fat powder ski. The narrower inside “edge” profile of the canoe carves into the water, acting like the compressed camber of a ski. Sharp edges (i.e., hard chines) might make the turn easier but are not required, thus there's a fair amount of skidding that occurs.

The other way that a canoe carves (second sense) works best when the stems, particularly the bow stem, remain in the water when heeled. The more stem that projects into the water and the narrower the hull profile, the more powerful the carve. Narrow stems act like a tipless ski (with two bases) set sideways in the water. When vertical (sideways) it just keeps the canoe pointed forward, like a skeg, but when tipped to one side or the other it now acts like a high angle ski and carves away from the heel, using the pressure of water against the stem (ski base) to accentuate the carve. I think that’s why it feels natural to push down with my foot to emphasize the heel; it feels like I’m weighting a carving ski. And pulling up on the opposite foot feels like I’m unweighting the inside ski in a turn. In this case, the heeled profile of the hull is less important because the stems, especially the bow stem, is doing most of the carving not the hull, and the stern stem is both carving and skidding into the turn, much like the tail of a ski.

So non-rockered canoes will have a much different response to heeling than a rockered canoe because of how much stem remains in the water. The stems act like a ski carving a turn and because the stems are oriented 90 degrees to the hull they counter the carving effect of the hull. Depending on hull profile and length, there is a wide range of effects; it’s all relative.

That’s how I think of carving a canoe. I use carving in the second sense to subtly offset the yaw effect when paddling a fast solo touring canoe. Flame on!

Not enough coffee in me yet to follow your text, but the diagram looks right to me.

 

[lowangle al]

This discussion has reinforced thoughts I've had regarding turning a canoe with a heel vs carving and how it relates to carving a ski(s), which is how my brain thinks of carving. My conclusion is that there are two ways that canoes "carve" a turn and they rely on different aspects of canoe design and hull shape. Whether a canoe is carving in the first sense (using a heel) depends on its hull profile when heeled, and carving in the second sense (Freestyle Instruction Manual Ch. 4 Pg. 6 Copyright 1995 CEW) depends on whether (and how much) the bow and stern stems extend into the water when heeled.

My alpine and Nordic skiing background has me thinking of carving a canoe (first sense) as heeling the boat towards the turn to narrow up the hull and produce a profile that very crudely mimics the shape of a fat powder ski. The narrower inside “edge” profile of the canoe carves into the water, acting like the compressed camber of a ski. Sharp edges (i.e., hard chines) might make the turn easier but are not required, thus there's a fair amount of skidding that occurs.

The other way that a canoe carves (second sense) works best when the stems, particularly the bow stem, remain in the water when heeled. The more stem that projects into the water and the narrower the hull profile, the more powerful the carve. Narrow stems act like a tipless ski (with two bases) set sideways in the water. When vertical (sideways) it just keeps the canoe pointed forward, like a skeg, but when tipped to one side or the other it now acts like a high angle ski and carves away from the heel, using the pressure of water against the stem (ski base) to accentuate the carve. I think that’s why it feels natural to push down with my foot to emphasize the heel; it feels like I’m weighting a carving ski. And pulling up on the opposite foot feels like I’m unweighting the inside ski in a turn. In this case, the heeled profile of the hull is less important because the stems, especially the bow stem, is doing most of the carving not the hull, and the stern stem is both carving and skidding into the turn, much like the tail of a ski.

So non-rockered canoes will have a much different response to heeling than a rockered canoe because of how much stem remains in the water. The stems act like a ski carving a turn and because the stems are oriented 90 degrees to the hull they counter the carving effect of the hull. Depending on hull profile and length, there is a wide range of effects; it’s all relative.

That’s how I think of carving a canoe. I use carving in the second sense to subtly offset the yaw effect when paddling a fast solo touring canoe. Flame on!

The following diagram shows the difference between a typical sit-and-switch forward stroke with no heel vs a forward stroke using a subtle carve to partially offset yaw.

View attachment 151061

I couldn't find the Freestyle Instruction Manual is I'm not exactly sure if I'm following you correctly. I do agree with the premise that carving depends on how far the stems extend into the water when heeled. With a flat trim I've noticed a turning away from the lean, but I've never leaned away from my paddle side to see if it counteracts Yaw. I assume it would.

When I compare how a ski carves to a canoe I see three ways to weight your ski. You can front load it and carve with the tip or load the center and carve with that and you can also turn with your tails. In all three cases the ski will turn in the same direction. What I find in a canoe is that if I'm bow heavy it will carve towards the side of the lean.(bow pinning) If I'm stern heavy it will also carve towards the side of the lean, but with a flat trim it will turn away from the lean.

I think I get way more carving action with my stern to offset yaw, then I could by leaning away with a flat trim. When I'm carving with the stern I have to control my lean or I can turn too much towards the paddle side, requiring me to add a sweep to stay on track. I'm always balancing my carve (trim and lean), my stroke and the wind to minimize correction strokes.