Paddling advice for long, flat, skinny boats

[Tsuga8]

I too was surprised by how much the Advantage did respond to a sculling draw and sideslips. I imagine that would decrease with more load? I was using a 59" Tremolo ottertail so maybe that extra length helped with my stern rudder and underwater recovery corrections. I was also out on a calm day - I could see wind changing things.

 

[Chip]

I’ve paddled the Advantage a few more times and have a few more thoughts.

Sit and switch is the way to paddle it. I’m much slower paddling it on one side with correction strokes.

I’ve been working on the sit and switch. I think I’ve improved, but thus far, I have to say I don’t much enjoy it. I get 4-5 strokes per side before I switch. Stroke, stroke, stroke, stroke, switch, stroke, stroke, stroke, stroke, switch… No time to pause and glide, or you just yaw more off course. The switch is a bigger move—I’m still working on it, but quickly lifting the arms to immediately bang out four more strokes just doesn’t feel smooth.

I feel my forward stroke is okay, though probably I can improve on this. I straighten my lower arm and reach as far forward as I can for the catch. I rotate my torso, although I’m pretty stiff, so maybe not as much as others. With my feet on the foot bar and knee slightly bent, I straighten my on-side leg with the stroke to transfer power to the foot bar. I slightly rotate my arse in the seat a wee bit. The shaft seems to me vertical, but no doubt I can probably improve. I’m working on shortening the stroke to end mid-thigh as opposed to hip. The slide out to the side paddle-extraction was a very helpful hint—thanks for that.

I’m not sure my switch is good. Sometimes in a rythem, the switch just seems to happen, which is cool when it is going good. I’m not sure I’m always attached to the paddle, maybe kind of throwing it between hands. Seems like a bad idea that could end up in dropping the paddle, especially if it is windy. I’ve searched a bit but haven’t found a description of exactly how the switch is supposed to go. Where should my hands be? What is the path of the paddle between extraction and plant? How high to lift? And sometimes my top hand doesn’t correctly land on the grip. The switch is working, but I’m not sure i do it right.

I find it extremely impressive that fellow CT-netters paddle over five mph with moderate effort. I can barely scrape above 5 at maximum effort and I can’t hold that for long. I’m doing about 50 strokes a minute. Any faster than that, and I can’t keep up the switch so I basically have a pause while switching sides. My cruising speed is low to mid four mph.

 

[Alan Gage]

I’m not sure my switch is good. Sometimes in a rythem, the switch just seems to happen, which is cool when it is going good. I’m not sure I’m always attached to the paddle, maybe kind of throwing it between hands. Seems like a bad idea that could end up in dropping the paddle, especially if it is windy. I’ve searched a bit but haven’t found a description of exactly how the switch is supposed to go. Where should my hands be? What is the path of the paddle between extraction and plant? How high to lift? And sometimes my top hand doesn’t correctly land on the grip. The switch is working, but I’m not sure i do it right.

I change how I switch depending on conditions. The only constant is that the bottom hand is the one that hands off. If I'm paddling on the right side then my right hand (bottom) hands off to my left hand (the new bottom hand) and as the left hand begins placing the blade for the catch the right hand is sliding up to the grip. With practice it's seamless magic. When watching a really good paddler you sometimes don't even see it happen, they're just magically paddling on the other side.

I'm usually not that smooth, nor do I try to be when tripping or paddling for fun. When I swap bottom hands I usually swing the blade in an arc toward the front of canoe which causes most of the water to fling over the bow and keeps the boat drier. It's a little slower but still quick enough. It's all wrist action and easy enough with a carbon blade. A wood paddle might be too heavy.

In the wind my switches get slower because I'm making double sure the handoff is secure because, as you alluded to, it would be really easy to have a lightweight paddle blow out of your hands if you miss the hand off.

I feel my forward stroke is okay, though probably I can improve on this. I straighten my lower arm and reach as far forward as I can for the catch. I rotate my torso, although I’m pretty stiff, so maybe not as much as others. With my feet on the foot bar and knee slightly bent, I straighten my on-side leg with the stroke to transfer power to the foot bar. I slightly rotate my arse in the seat a wee bit.

I don't think my catch is that far forward and my torso rotation is not exaggerated at all. I never feel like I'm "reaching" for the catch and I don't feel like I'm getting stretched out. Instead I feel like I'm staying pretty compact. When power is applied after the catch my top hand is pushing down and I'm doing a bit of an ab crunch with some rotation. I am transferring power similar to you with the foot bar.

Here's a video showing the marathon stroke from the front and behind. If you slow the playback down to 25% (click the gear icon) it's much easier to break down how he's stroking and switching.

Alan

 

[gumpus]

Alan, what do marathon racers do to build cardio strength/endurance? Is paddling the only way?

 

[Alan Gage]

Alan, what do marathon racers do to build cardio strength/endurance? Is paddling the only way?

Paddling sure seems to be a popular way when the water isn't frozen. I remember a lot of them being runners, bikers, skies, and snowshoers as well. They were an active group.

Long steady state efforts (relatively easy zone 2), from my research and limited experience, seems to be the best way to build endurance. For me that's slow jogging, bike rides, and paddling with a heart rate around 125. It's hard enough that it feels like work but it also feels like something you can keep doing for a long time. You can still speak in full sentences but anyone listening to you talk would be able to tell that you're somewhat out of breath.

Alan

 

[tketcham]

I feel my forward stroke is okay, though probably I can improve on this. I straighten my lower arm and reach as far forward as I can for the catch. I rotate my torso, although I’m pretty stiff, so maybe not as much as others. With my feet on the foot bar and knee slightly bent, I straighten my on-side leg with the stroke to transfer power to the foot bar. I slightly rotate my arse in the seat a wee bit. The shaft seems to me vertical, but no doubt I can probably improve. I’m working on shortening the stroke to end mid-thigh as opposed to hip.

Chip, it sounds like everything is starting to work for you. Enjoy that Advantage.

I don't think my catch is that far forward and my torso rotation is not exaggerated at all. I never feel like I'm "reaching" for the catch and I don't feel like I'm getting stretched out. Instead I feel like I'm staying pretty compact. When power is applied after the catch my top hand is pushing down and I'm doing a bit of an ab crunch with some rotation. I am transferring power similar to you with the foot bar.

Alan, your observations are basically what I was finding while out paddling in my Hemlock Kestrel yesterday using a bent shaft paddle and hit-and-switch technique. I was really paying attention to what worked and what didn't. I find that with the Kestrel (1.75"/1.25" rocker), the paddle has to be more vertical and the blade spends less time in the water and right in the center section of the hull in order to minimize yaw. I found that over rotating was counter productive; I concentrated on a solid catch and the feeling of pushing the paddle down into the water and letting the blade angle do it's thing. The amount of rotation was subtle because the catch wasn't out in front so much that it required much rotation. If everything is working well I can get five or six strokes per side fairly consistently with four-stroke sides mixed in to keep me on course. With a little wind/wave assist against the bow I can easily get six and even seven strokes on the leeward side.

After paddling a touring canoe the change to a marathon C-1 used in the videos would feel like cheating.

 

[yknpdlr]

Watch the above linked video of Kevin Olson's "'how to turn a c1". you get good from the front views of how he huts and switches his hands. Also note that in what he calls a "pry' the paddle never comes in contact with the canoe, though some may think oherwise from the terminology.

When I prepare for the Yukon River marathon races, my team and I strive to accumulate team or individual personal training of 500 miles either on water, or the near equivalent time on a canoe paddling machine during winter months. I also do fast power walks withe interval jogs 3+ miles on a hilly dirt road near my camp, or XC ski when I can. i dislike running long distances, never have been able to do that effectively, but long distance paddlling or biking or skiing is very enjoyable and tireless.

While paddling, I feel I get a much better catch and power into the first 18 inches of the power stroke if I focus on chest forward rather than than bending over at my waist with a slopppy forward reach. Torso ratation is also minimal with me.

 

[gumpus]

While paddling, I feel I get a much better catch and power into the first 18 inches of the power stroke if I focus on chest forward rather than than bending over at my waist with a slopppy forward reach. Torso ratation is also minimal with me.

I'd like to better understand this. How do you put your chest forward but not bend at the waist?

 

[yknpdlr]

Of course, you do need to bend at the waist, but not as much as you may think. It is not like bending over with arched back to pick something up off the ground, which results in sloppy catch followed by poor power application. Chest forward is more like puffing out your chest like a gorilla does. Doing so keeps your head up, shoulders straight, square, and high. You also need to maintain the square "box shape, squaring your arms along with the paddle and shoulders making the four sides of the box, even while slightly rotating the torso as the in-water stroke ends. All easier to do with chest leading forward.

Blade catch is directly under the Grip hand matching the relative water backward flow velocity. With high shoulder, enter the water and begin both downward and back pressure initially in a direction as if your fisted hand is going to strike you in the nose before it drops lower. The first 18 power inches gets blade to mid thigh, then apply an exta power boost as blade goes perpendicular to surface and to the boat before sliding out with no water lift or splash for feathered air recovery. Muslces relax and recovery rest during the next half second or so with a twist of grip hand, to feather blade slicing air while out of the water before the next perpindicular blade catch. Elbow angles will change very little throughout the stroke, less change with shaft arm than with the grip arm as chest and the "bend at the waist" straightens upward and back.

I always tell people that if your arms soon get tired, then you are doing it wrong by using the wrong muscle groups. Think back and pecs, not biceps and triceps. Arms are no more than a linkage from your strongest muscles to the paddle and thus from the boat to the water. Foot pressure helps. Try it contunuously for 18 hours/day for 1000 miles Avoid over doing any heavily excessive forward/backward weight shift which causes a porpoising action of the boat, thus wasting energy.

 

[Tsuga8]

I’ve been working on the sit and switch. I think I’ve improved, but thus far, I have to say I don’t much enjoy it.

I have to say I'm still in this camp, but like Chip I plan to keep working on technique and see if that sentiment changes. It feels like it lacks the grace of single-side correction paddling. But, I'm certainly still new. I do recognize it's faster, which for me is attractive in terms of getting to farther scenery or destinations in the same amount of time.

I really appreciate the experience and willingness to share from all you folks...I've got more practicing to do.

 

[Mason]

It feels like it lacks the grace of single-side correction paddling.

Grace is in the eye of the beholder. Having paddled sit-and-switch almost exclusively for almost 45 years, primarily in skinny solo canoes, it is effortless for me, and is like riding a road bike on good asphalt compared to riding a mt. bike on a rough dirt road (with flat tires). This summer I paddled almost 400 miles in the Arctic (carbon bent shaft), and few years ago another 200+ miles in Alaska (wood straight shaft) all the while correction paddling in the stern of a slow tandem. Grace was not a term I contemplated. Conditions permitting, give me my 17'6" Voyager and my Zaveral, and a lot of miles ahead of me. Oh, and I enjoy that combination gunkholeing, twitching my butt to make whatever turn is necessary. Duffeks work in fast boats too.

And to those new to sit-and-switch, the switch is critical, and will very much determine both the efficiency and enjoyment of paddling. With a carbon bent shaft and good technique, paddling even one stroke per side can be effective. It can be effortless and automatic.

 

[Tsuga8]

Grace is in the eye of the beholder. Having paddled sit-and-switch almost exclusively for almost 45 years, primarily in skinny solo canoes, it is effortless for me, and is like riding a road bike on good asphalt compared to riding a mt. bike on a rough dirt road (with flat tires). This summer I paddled almost 400 miles in the Arctic (carbon bent shaft), and few years ago another 200+ miles in Alaska (wood straight shaft) all the while correction paddling in the stern of a slow tandem. Grace was not a term I contemplated. Conditions permitting, give me my 17'6" Voyager and my Zaveral, and a lot of miles ahead of me. Oh, and I enjoy that combination gunkholeing, twitching my butt to make whatever turn is necessary. Duffeks work in fast boats too.

And to those new to sit-and-switch, the switch is critical, and will very much determine both the efficiency and enjoyment of paddling. With a carbon bent shaft and good technique, paddling even one stroke per side can be effective. It can be effortless and automatic.

I should have said that I feel like  I lack grace when paddling sit & switch compared to using an ottertail with underwater recovery or single-side corrections. I've been practicing the latter for years and only just started learning the former. It's hard for me to see grace in it now, at my current skill levels. I'm reserving judgement for after more I get more practice, but regardless of what I decide for myself I certainly don't mean to insult those who find sit & switch to be a gratifying way to paddle. I decided to try it because it has so many devotees.

And of course: different strokes for different folks!

 

[Alan Gage]

but regardless of what I decide for myself I certainly don't mean to insult those who find sit & switch to be a gratifying way to paddle.

I certainly did not take any offense to it. I understand what you're saying and I agree. It does feel more graceful performing single sided correction strokes in a responsive hull.

Having paddled sit-and-switch almost exclusively for almost 45 years, primarily in skinny solo canoes, it is effortless for me, and is like riding a road bike on good asphalt compared to riding a mt. bike on a rough dirt road (with flat tires).

I think this is a great analogy. With time and proficiency it does become nearly effortless (mentally). With hit and switch I can turn my brain off and it can either pay attention to what's going on around me or it can daydream. With single sided correction strokes, at anything but slow speeds in calm conditions, my brain is actively thinking about the paddle strokes and it can distract me from everything else. I'm guessing it's the opposite for those working on the hit and switch stroke.

During the course of a tripping day I'll switch between stroke styles depending on my mood and paddling conditions. I might slowly cruise along single sided for an hour in a particularly scenic area or when I want a more relaxed pace and then, when it's time to cross a large lake, move to sit and switch. Options are good.

When I try to force myself to perform single sided correction strokes when I would normally use sit and switch it feels like being stuck behind someone who walks slower than my normal pace. Paddling slower, in that case, feels like more work.

Alan

 

[yknpdlr]

It is a somewhat different experience for me. It is difficult for me to not think about race mode paddling when solo. Most often I am in a multi-seat canoe when racing, and of course hit and switch is mandatory then. But when solo I do enjoy single side paddling for long periods on one side before switching, but I do it with muscle building mode in mind instead of rapid hit and switch. When "self-forcing myself" to go into a more relaxed pleasure tripping mode of single paddle side travel, I enjoy the variety of strokes that just happen as needed for control or near shore placement of myself and boat.

The bicycle analogy is something I have always taught canoe students to think about. When riding a bike, you don't have to consciously think about exactly what to do to negotiate a fast ride and to avoid any potholes or other obstacles as you go over rough ground or bad pavement. You just do it and it happens. Same with handling a well-mannered canoe and paddle, with either a light bent carbon with minimal pitch or quick J control strokes, or with a well-made straight wood otter tail with mainly Canadian recovery. The strokes in your practiced quiver for power, control and maneuver just happen automatically without conscious thought of which stroke variants are linked next to make the canoe do as it is commanded. Sometimes I enjoy following behind a student or friend who has good boat control, while keeping the point of my bow within about two inches from their stern, never touching, as I practice quick moving paddle control of staying close in their slipstream at speed.

 

[gumpus]

I have to say I'm still in this camp, but like Chip I plan to keep working on technique and see if that sentiment changes. It feels like it lacks the grace of single-side correction paddling. But, I'm certainly still new. I do recognize it's faster, which for me is attractive in terms of getting to farther scenery or destinations in the same amount of time.

I think it took me about 2 years to start falling in love with my Advantage so just based on my experience you might want to give it some time. For cruising my typical cadence is same as you...and while it may not be as graceful as single side I very much like the balanced exercise (and I hit and switch kneeling). I think I limit my cadence because I don't like the frantic feeling for cruising. For me, having to develop new paddling muscles is a good thing and so is having a paddling option that doesn't hurt my knees. Although some may think of Advantage as a one dimensional boat there are a lot of things I like about it other than speed and I enjoy using it for lily dipping too.

 

[gumpus]

People often mention "strokes per side" and say that more is better. I don't fully understand although I can understand that spending less time switching sides should add one type of efficiency. I can get the most strokes per side in a rockered boat doing an inside turn or going mostly straight while staying on the verge of initiating an inside turn. It's not fast, it's playing. My favorite cruising rhythm is paddling hit and switch kneeling where for me it is almost always 3 strokes per side...one hard stroke to "catch" the boat and stop the yaw after switching, one pretty hard stroke with boat pointed straight, then one hard stroke to throw the bow of the boat to the other side just before I switch sides. I've never tried to maximize strokes per side in the Advantage but maybe I should.

 

[tketcham]

People often mention "strokes per side" and say that more is better. I don't fully understand although I can understand that spending less time switching sides should add one type of efficiency.

I try to maximize strokes per side with hit-and-switch because I think that unless you have a pretty refined switch it's more efficient; my switches tend to be a bit leisurely. I don't have to focus on not hitting the gunwales and my first catch on each side is cleaner. But probably the real reason is that if I only get a few strokes per side it feels like I'm a beginner (single-side) canoeist and haven't yet figured out how to keep a canoe going straight. My perception, my problem, my solution.

 

[gumpus]

Well, I know I'm a beginner so that's not a constraint for me. Just another thing to ponder when I know I can get more strokes per side by reducing power. Yesterday while paddling upstream on very calm water in my rockered Osprey I counted and I was getting about 12 strokes on my strong side and 4-6 on my off side...just cruising leisurely and enjoying the playfulness of the boat.

I also did a spot check on Alan's "moderate" 120 bpm heart rate target at the YMCA this morning and I'd say that's on the serious side of moderate; for me and the machine I was on that meant light sweat and output around 175 watts and a calorie burn rate of 700/hour.

 

[Alan Gage]

I also did a spot check on Alan's "moderate" 120 bpm heart rate target at the YMCA this morning and I'd say that's on the serious side of moderate; for me and the machine I was on that meant light sweat and output around 175 watts and a calorie burn rate of 700/hour.

I'm sure it's different for all of us. It's certainly a harder effort for me now at 47 than it was as 27. Back then I could fairly easily spike my heart rate to 190 and now it seems I have to be on the verge of death to get over 170.

The activity makes a difference for me too.

With a heartrate of 120 I'd expect to be putting out around 130-140 watts on my road bike and I could maintain that for hours, but it would feel like work.

Last night I went for a 3 mile run at a slow pace of 10:30/mile and my heart rate was 140-150. I can't run and keep my heart low, even at slow speeds.

In the canoe 120 bpm feels like an effort but a sustainable one. Something I could do for a few hours if I needed to cross a large lake or paddle into a stiff wind. It wouldn't be very fun but I could do it.

The other day when I was playing around with using a bent shaft backwards the stroke mechanics were changed and that same 120 bpm felt like twice the work. I wasn't using my core as much and instead was relying more on the smaller muscles of my arm and shoulders. It required more effort from these small muscles to raise my heart rate and, despite the same heart rate (120) it felt significantly harder (and more painful) than my normal paddling stroke.

How long do you think you could have sustained your effort at 120 bpm?

Alan

 

[yknpdlr]

Just another thing to ponder when I know I can get more strokes per side by reducing power.

I find that a canoe tends to track straighter with less need for correction strokes the faster you can make it go, to the limit of strokes getting sloppy. I like to cruise right along at speed with a bent carbon on one side using a pitch stroke and very (very) mimal occasional J when i feel I need it. The Canadian stroke with a fine thin blade ottertail works the same, the Canadian underwater recovery being the control. There is very little yaw at speed with a powerful stroke when you go relatively fast.