Need advice to repair cracked inwale

[pblanc]

Pete, my rational for suggesting tape was that while cutting and epoxying glass cloth is easy for the experienced, the frays and strays might be a sloppy handful for…



About the seamed edge bump -– quite true, but the use of peel ply eliminates that raised seam edge.

While most tapes are 8oz (6oz is also available) the overall weight difference needed for small amount needed on this gunwale repair is insignificant, and if it was covered with peel ply would be essentially the same in appearance as 4oz cloth.

I have some 1"” fiberglass tape that is lighter weight and more tightly woven than most; it looks like 4oz S-glass. And the seam edge on that tape is practically invisible.



In that application I would absolutely use tape. 4 inch tape would wrap around both inwale and outwale leaving the seamed edges near the hull on either side. Keeping it in place while the epoxy sets up might be an issue, and I’'d probably work with the hull upside down and install the tape when the resin was sticky/tacky, even if that needed a topcoat to fill the weave.

BTW, a question for folks who work with glass cloth – has anyone tried spraying Super-77 (or Aqua-net hair spray) on the to-be-cut edges to help keep the strays and frays together? I know that is done with the more difficult to manage carbon fiber cloth.

The physical weight is not a concern, obviously. In my experience, 4 oz/sq yd fiberglass cloth is virtually invisible on wood when the weave is filled. Six oz/sq yd cloth is nearly so, although the weave is usually visible if one looks carefully for it. Eight oz/sq yd cloth is usually clearly visible, although it does not necessarily look bad. Using peel ply makes the edge smoother, but does not affect whether the 'glass fibers will be large enough to be visible. The epoxy impregnated fibers are refractile, and they will be visible if they are large enough.

Yes, I agree, if one were going to leave the inwale and outwale in situ and 'glass over both, 4 inch wide tape would be ideal.

I have not used any spray on adhesive on fiberglass cloth. I am told that fiberglass is treated with sizing to ensure that the fibers take up epoxy evenly. I would be concerned that spraying something on it might affect that ability. I have not found fraying to be much of an issue unless one is working with a piece of cloth with an unusual shape, like an hour glass. I cut the fabric slightly oversized. Any fibers right along the cut edge that look like they will fray off I take off before doing anything with it. Applying a thin coat of epoxy to the surface the cloth is to cover will often help keep it in place. If you treat the cloth gently and wet out the piece from the center outward, very lightly dab epoxy onto the edge without disturbing the fibers, and wait until the fibers have completely saturated with resin before manipulating the edge, fraying is really not much of an issue. Any loose strands are rather easily cut off when the epoxy is green using a sharp knife or scalpel, or feathered off by sanding when the epoxy is cured.

One can also mask the outline of the patch with masking tape and spread the epoxy out over the tape, then when the epoxy is green incise along the tape edge, cutting any stray fibers before removing the mask.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Hmmm. The biggest difference of opinion is the glue: Gorilla Glue vs. Titebond III wood glue vs. G Flex epoxy.

What is the job the glue must do? I'm not gluing together something that will be bearing a compression, expansion or shearing load, like a portage yoke or even a thwart. I'm just trying to keep some cracks from propagating, to replace rotted wood, and to have some substance in the void that will resist further rot. I also may want to shape the dried glue by building up some layers and sanding. So some of this glue will be standing proud by its structural self above the wood. If I made bricks solely of cured Gorilla, Titebond and G Flex, how would each fare if I tried to sand the bricks into different shapes? How would they fare if I threw them against a boulder? I don't know.

The glassing is a separate, later and perhaps unnecessary step. However, I think the circumference of the Wildfire gunwale would be more like 2" than 4". I'll measure with a piece of string tomorrow. I do have scissors.

 

[Guest]

The physical weight is not a concern, obviously. In my experience, 4 oz/sq yd fiberglass cloth is virtually invisible on wood when the weave is filled. Six oz/sq yd cloth is nearly so, although the weave is usually visible if one looks carefully for it. Eight oz/sq yd cloth is usually clearly visible, although it does not necessarily look bad. Using peel ply makes the edge smoother, but does not affect whether the 'glass fibers will be large enough to be visible. The epoxy impregnated fibers are refractile, and they will be visible if they are large enough.

Pete, I was working under the assumption that, rather than buy additional epoxies, Glenn would be using G/flex both to fill and seal the crack and cover the fiberglass, so any cloth repair was going to be somewhat milky or white-ish (unlike using 105/206 or etc, where a lightweight cloth would be nearly invisible).

I have noticed that, when I use peel ply and press or roll down the surface of the cloth, even heavier weight glass is less noticeable than without.

Hmmm. The biggest difference of opinion is the glue: Gorilla Glue vs. Titebond III wood glue vs. G Flex epoxy.


The glassing is a separate, later and perhaps unnecessary step. However, I think the circumference of the Wildfire gunwale would be more like 2" than 4". I'll measure with a piece of string tomorrow. I do have scissors.

Glenn, I'’ll vote against Gorilla Glue to fill a void. While it does OK in adhering two close surfaces together I don’t like the frothy, air-pocketed substance it leaves in a void. I'’ve not used Titebond for boat work.

Measure the wrap around the inwale/outwale, from inside hull to outside hull. I'’m betting it is closer to four inches than two.

I have plenty of glass tape and peel ply, and don'’t have to send you scissors, so I’d be out a postage stamp.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

G Flex dries milky white? I've used two-part epoxies in the (long) past to fix dings in things and it dried clear.

 

[Alan Gage]

I've never worked with Gorilla glue and have never used Titebond/wood glue for the type of repair you're doing. I do have some experience with epoxy though and I don't see how you could go wrong with it, though other adhesives might work too.

As others have said I'd pick out all the rotted wood that I could first. Then I'd tape over any cracks or gaps that the resin would want to flow out of. A syringe to inject the epoxy deep into the crack would be nice but since I don't have one I'd probably do without. I'd order one ahead of time but I don't have any forethought. I could also wait for one to get shipped to me but I don't have any patience either. I'd use a heat gun or blow drier to heat up the wood so that when the epoxy came into contact it thinned, which will help it flow into the cracks better.

I doubt you'll be able to get it filled in flush with one application but it should be sealed up tight against water after that so you could either leave it as is or keep adding more coats.

From the advice you've gotten I don't think you could go wrong, just different.

Alan

 

[oldie moldy]

Well Glen, You sure have got everybody to thinking about this, it's interesting to read all the ideas.

But returning to your original post, you described yourself as a person with very few tools and skills. I'd guess that you've been here for some time and your pretty comfortable with living that way. Just about everything described here would have to be charitably called a "Quick Fix". And maybe that's all that's needed to fix your canoe for what you need as long as you need it.

Why in the world fuss with it? Why not pack the thing off to some local canoe builder with a reputation for good work and have him do the quick fix for you? It's been my experience that when a person starts in on doing something new it takes three or four times to start to develop the skills needed to produce something that looks nice. This is your first attempt and most probably the last time too. I'd think you may well be money ahead to spare yourself all the aggravation of making all the silly mistakes we all have made and let some craftsman (in the off season) go on ahead and do the work nicely for you.

Something to consider anyways.....
Rob

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Glenn, I also would advise against filling much of a void with Gorilla Glue, for the reasons Mike stated. It's okay with thin gaps and imperfections, but larger voids will have...umm...texture that you won't like. And if that void is the actual joint, it will be very weak.

Since I have spent a lot of time researching "good old sailboats" the last couple years, I have read a lot about how sections of rotted plywood core around where hardware is bolted on is repaired. Very commonly in 70's and 80's vintage sailboats, where the chainplates and lifeline stanchions are bolted through cored sections of deck, if the fitting was poorly sealed or lost it's seal and had water intrusion over years - that plywood core is rotted and weak. The common fix for this, that I have read anyway, is to pick out as much of the rot as possible (with that dental tool someone mentioned) and then soak it with Git Rot....

http://www.jamestowndistributors.co...word=git_rot&gclid=CICUzJnc0MACFVGTfgodr74ABQ


...and then fill the voids with thickened epoxy. Git Rot is made to penetrate rotted wood and harden it. I would consider using that first, and then filling the voids with G-Flex. Then if you want to be really sure it will all hold, you could glass it over as Mike described.

 

[Guest]

To clarify some of the exchanges above – I’ve met Pete and consider him a friend. His suggestions for repairs and such typically detail best practices, the “right” way to fix things, and I’ve yet to see him provide bad advice.

My recommendations are more often tailored towards the shade-tree boat tinkerer with more limited skills or experience, or are aimed at what I think someone might actually attempt in lieu of a more professional fix.

Glenn – Yes, cloth wetted out with G/flex is slightly milky in appearance and isn’t recommended if you want to clearly see some lovely wood grain underneath.

You are probably OK with just G/flex bonding and fill on the broken wale, but there is a lot of un-split grain run out right in that area. I doubt it would separate again in the bonded section, but it might very well split a quarter inch away where the grain runs out, so I’d be really tempted to glass it.

 

[pblanc]

G Flex dries milky white? I've used two-part epoxies in the (long) past to fix dings in things and it dried clear.

G Flex does not cure milky white unless one has mixed colloidal silica into it, at least for me. The color of mixed G Flex approximates the color of honey and it cures that way. The color usually looks reasonably good on aged ash. It is not absolutely transparent like West epoxy 105/206. But when using 4 oz/sq yd cloth, the amount of epoxy used even when the weave is filled is relatively small, and it is spread very thin so it does not impart all that much coloration. If you use unthickened G Flex to fill a sizable hole or crack, the epoxy will be visible as a caramel color of variable darkness. Take a look at the photo of the Twister gunwale I posted on Flickr. That shows what 4 oz/sq yd fiberglass cloth applied over unstained ash with G Flex epoxy looks like. It also shows a hole left by a #10 machine screw that was filled in with unthickened G Flex epoxy.

As for Gorilla Glue, I have no doubt it would work to bond the wood pieces together. I know whitewater boaters who have used it for extensive repairs and have reported good results. But it is not so great for fairing in small gaps and voids because of the way it expands as it sets, and like Steve, I don't care fot the texture or color of the cured adhesive. And I sure wouldn't choose it for wetting out cloth.

The inwales on Bell boats are slightly less than 3/4" square. To go around 3 faces of the inwale therefore requires slightly more than 2 inches of material The outwale is radiused so that the circumference around the outer face it is a bit less than 2 inches. Although cloth tape has selvage edges, it is still a plain weave material so that with any given strip width can be traded for length or vice verse. Four inch wide material should work perfectly for going around both.

 

[Guest]

G Flex does not cure milky white unless one has mixed colloidal silica into it, at least for me. The color of mixed G Flex approximates the color of honey and it cures that way. The color usually looks reasonably good on aged ash. It is not absolutely transparent like West epoxy 105/206. But when using 4 oz/sq yd cloth, the amount of epoxy used even when the weave is filled is relatively small, and it is spread very thin so it does not impart all that much coloration.

I guess I’d attribute my perception of that G/flex milky white to either my profound colorblindness, or perhaps that I’m most often either working with heavier weight cloth or tape, or using multiple layers of cloth.

If I am wetting out a single layer of fiberglass and want a clear finish I use 4 or 6 oz cloth and a single layer.

The more I look at the grain run out on that wale again the more I think a fiberglass wrap would be a good idea to help prevent separation adjacent to the bonded repairs.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Oldie, having a pro do my repair work was my modus operandi last century when I had three times my current income and things cost half as much. Now I am forced to be a do-it-yourself-cheaply (or, more accurately, a neglect-it-yourself-constantly) fixed income miser.

My dentist has a used dental pick waiting for me.

I really think the glue needs to be more of a waterproof, fill-the-void, sandable liquid rather than a super-strong structural bond liquid. I'm also thinking cheap. That G Flex kit costs 30 dollars, and I don't need the cups or mixers, though the syringes would be helpful.

I'm thinking about these two $4.99 items from Home Depot:

Steve, if you've used the GIT Rot product, wouldn't that itself be sufficient to fill the cracks? It seems to be just another variation of a two part epoxy.

I'm not sure the Bell gunwales are ash. I think the thwarts are cherry. In any event, the fiberglassing step will be on hold until I see how the glue step goes. If I do glass, I would want the glass/resin composite to be transparent.

 

[pblanc]

Mike, are you using the 655 G Flex that comes in the toothpaste type tubes like this:

http://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-...e=&network=g&gclid=CLqo_-zt0cACFQ5gMgodfjkAmQ

If so, that stuff is prethickened with colloidal silica powder which will, of course, affect its appearance when cured. For wetting out cloth, I always use the unthickened epoxy (650).

Here are a couple more photos on Flickr. Nothing special, just something I am working on at the moment. Sorry for the photo quality, I couldn't seem to get the autofocus on my wife's old digital camera to work:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/42020723@N02/sets/72157646959954917/

This is the end of an ash seat frame that was used to replace a broken seat in a livery canoe used by a local group I do volunteer work for. Unfortunately, someone else associated with the group installed the seat which sat on top of an aluminum L bracket hanger of the type used by Wenonah. The machine screws that person had were too short so instead of finding the proper hardware, he drilled big holes through nearly half the thickness of the frame, wide enough to accept the finish washer as well as the head of the machine screws. The holes were also drilled at a bad angle, going out through the cut end of the frame rather than the bottom so that there was very little wood holding the seat in place. I filled in the sizable holes with unthickened G Flex epoxy, and will drill new holes through the cured epoxy to properly mount the seat.

The epoxy has cured to what I am calling a caramel color, but it is translucent. Despite looking through nearly 1/2" thickness of epoxy, you can see the wood at the bottom of the filled hole. The greater the thickness of the applied epoxy one is looking through, the greater the color density will be.

 

[Guest]

Mike, are you using the 655 G Flex that comes in the toothpaste type tubes like this:


If so, that stuff is prethickened with colloidal silica powder which will, of course, affect its appearance when cured. For wetting out cloth, I always use the unthickened epoxy (650).

Pete, no, I’m using the 118ml bottles of 605. Looking at repairs I have done with just poured/dripped G\flex it is honey colored. But my heavyweight or layered cloth G\flex looks slightly milky and not transparent as with 105/205 (206). I am compressing the heavier or layered cloth with peel ply, so who knows.

 

[Guest]

I'm thinking about these two $4.99 items from Home Depot:

Glenn, well, you’ll have saved $10 and have products you can buy today at Home Depot.

I have not used the LocTite marine epoxy and do not know how viscous it is. The JB Weld is a putty and will not flow, so it will need to be mixed into a paste and then packed as best you can into the void.

If I was using those I’d try to saturate the void with the LocTite and then pack in the JB Weld as tightly as possible so it fills all of the remaining space. And then maybe topcoat it with the LocTite (again, I don’t actually have any experience working with LocTite marine epoxy).

My vote would still be to drop the extra $10 on the G/flex, tape up the bottoms of the gunwale so the epoxy can’t drip out and fill it with several applications, allowing some time in between for the G\flex to seep and creep into the cracks and crevices in the void.

You would have lots of G/flex left over in those two 118ml bottles. It keeps very well and since it can be mixed in tiny batches and sticks to almost everything has become my go-to glue for all sorts of household repairs.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Mike, I'd only use one of those products, probably the Loctite epoxy. That saves me $25 over the West kit. Plus, I'm not sure G Flex is the best resin to wet out glass on my gunwales. I don't really want glass resin to be honey, caramel or milky color. I'd prefer clear. My inwale is going to be ugly, but my outwale is not damaged and I'd rather not have a discolored patch on it.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Steve, if you've used the GIT Rot product, wouldn't that itself be sufficient to fill the cracks? It seems to be just another variation of a two part epoxy.

Glenn, I haven't used the stuff yet myself. I made a point of finding a boat that isn't in need of rot repair. Yet.
Everything I've read about repairing small areas of rot with Git Rot suggests that it is a very thin epoxy that penetrates the rotted area and then cures hard. So the rot is used as "fiber substitute" of sorts. However - the thinning agent in Git Rot and other thinned epoxies is said to cause a loss of strength and water-proofing of the epoxy. So you can't just use that for the whole job. Think of it as a prep to stabilize the rot that you can't thoroughly remove, then use the regular epoxy over that.

I have read some dissenting opinion on the use of Git Rot - saying that it is better to use an epoxy like West 105 with an extra slow hardener like 209, and then heating the works while you apply it so it will flow and penetrate. But the stock answer for the repairs on older sailboats I have been reading about (rot spreading in the deck core from a bolt hole) seems to be to pick away the loose stuff, soak with Git Rot, and then fill voids with thickened epoxy. The caveat on this would probably be that the specific application in these cases doesn't require a lot of lateral strength. It's mostly compression forces.

BTW - Thickened G-Flex that comes in the "toothpaste tube" seems really expensive when you buy it, but if you're using it just for repairs, it goes a long way. I have been using the same set of tubes for a couple years, and haven't even used 20% of it yet - but it seems that I'm reaching for it all the time because it works with so many materials. It's great stuff. I just did a repair on our mini-van mirror with it, and used the left-over to do the cane seat fix. Because it isn't runny, very little gets wasted - so it only took a dab of each tube about the size of a garbanzo bean. And the screw-on caps don't leak like those plunger tubes' caps tend to.

I haven't used the Loctite epoxy for wood - or for anything at all in a long time FTM. When I was still using it, it seems like most of the plunger tubes always went to waste (from leakage).

Haven't used the J-B quick-wood either. Other J-B weld thickened epoxy products have worked well for me though. I had a vinyl gun'l that came from the previous owner with a nasty gouge clear into the hollow core (he rolled and it got bashed across volcanic rock) that I patched with J-B Quick Weld. It never showed any sign of coming loose over a couple years that I had it.

 

[oldie moldy]

Well Glenn, it looks like you've got plenty of advice! The funny thing is it will all probably work, like they say "more n' one way to skin a cat!"
Peering at the photo of the "marine epoxy" you put up, it says bonds wet surfaces, that's not the case here is it? And then in that little circle is it saying "setting time 2 minutes"? Whoa!!! You want the glue to be just as slow setting as you can get so that it has plenty of time to run everywhere it can get to.

Part of me would really want to put a C-clamp on the gunnel and draw it back into place but if there is a void inside it sure would be bad if the pads on the clamp broke through the surface of the wood. I guess if you can stand the looks of it sticking out a little bit, it might be best to let sleeping gunnels lie.

A further thought on a tool to use to clean the gap: you might try a coping saw blade, they are small and cheap. If you look at how the teeth are you can snap off one end and leave those little teeth angled to where they can rake out any bits. Then when the glue goes in you can use the blade to push the glue all around, it was a one shot deal anyway.

I like the idea PPine has about tilting the canoe to however would work best for you, that makes good sense. Might be best to see how you can prop it securely before you start with the glue.

That tube of Kwik Wood? Making it pretty really isn't a consideration here, I believe I'd just go with a slow epoxy.

Good Luck! and Best Wishes, Rob

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Here's my official CTN gunwale rot picking tool, a double-ended dental pick/scraper, compliments of the dentist whose kids I sent through college.





While I suspect any two-part epoxy would do, I ordered the G Flex kit that pblanc recommended, for $28.50 from a place in Brooklyn. I may need the glue syringes and the silica thickener that the kit has.

I'm now changing my mind about clamping again. I think I need some modest clamping because the cracked inwale is projecting loosely away from the hull. Maybe I'll clamp slightly before and as I inject the G Flex. Don't know if I should buy a C clamp, which may not stay on if only loosely clamped, or those X-shaped compression clamps, or use some other method of slightly pressing the inwale against the hull.

I measured the gunwale circumference, hull to hull, as 3.75". Don't know how that would work with 4" glass tape.

Hah. If I simply had some tools and skill, I could have fixed this dang thing with a splice already in less time than it's been to take pictures, write posts and read posts. But then we wouldn't have a long thread to waste the lives of so many other CTN members.

I'll try to video my boondoggle repair attempt when I get the G Flex kit.

 

[Guest]

While I suspect any two-part epoxy would do, I ordered the G Flex kit that pblanc recommended, for $28.50 from a place in Brooklyn. I may need the glue syringes and the silica thickener that the kit has.

I'm now changing my mind about clamping again. I think I need some modest clamping because the cracked inwale is projecting loosely away from the hull. Maybe I'll clamp slightly before and as I inject the G Flex. Don't know if I should buy a C clamp, which may not stay on if only loosely clamped, or those X-shaped compression clamps, or use some other method of slightly pressing the inwale against the hull.

I measured the gunwale circumference, hull to hull, as 3.75". Don't know how that would work with 4" glass tape.

Glenn, good on the G/flex purchase. For a simple fix pour and fill the void I think that epoxy is your best option. The last time I bought G/flex at an outfitter it was $21 for just the two 118ml bottles of 605, without the cups or syringes (which I already have).

As Oldie pointed out (good catch OM) that the setting time of that LocTite marine epoxy is awfully fast, and might not allow enough time for the epoxy to fully seep into the cracks and crevices in the void.

I think clamping as you describe would likewise be a good idea. Getting a C-clamp to hold on a rounded surface like an inwale/outwale can be a delicate balancing operation. I’ve had better luck using a Quick-grip bar clamp. The small ones cost about $7 at Home Depot.

http://www.amazon.com/IRWIN-Tools-QUICK-GRIP-Clamp-6-inch/dp/B00002244S

If you have access to any kind of clamp you might try a dry run first, just to see if it looks like the separated wood is in fact clampable/compressible. And if you do use a clamp try not to epoxy it to the gunwales. Got a neighbor you can borrow a clampfrom?

4” tape would leave 1/8” of glass on the hull if wrapped around the gunwale, which would be less than ideal - trying to get that last 1/8” of cloth to make a sudden right angle turn and stay in place against the edge of the hull would be a PITA.

3” tape would be better. I looked in the fiberglass box; I have 1”, 2”, 2” bias and 4” tape. If you decide to glass the gunwales (which I think is a good idea given the grain run out in the area of that separation) you might be better off cutting some 4oz cloth to size as per Pete’s instructions above.

 

[pblanc]

These spring clamps are inexpensive and work fine when clamping around a curved surface like a radiused outwale. But pad the wood so that the serrations don't leave marks and the clamp does not indent the wood.

http://www.harborfreight.com/3-12-in-Nylon-Spring-Clamp-69289.html