Learning the 17' Wenonah Advantage

[Erica]

I have a small pond in front of my house and have been practicing in the new wenonah advantage I bought last weekend. It took only until the third session to get comfortable in the narrow boat and I am now "one" with the boat. (My mohawk tandem now feels like the QE2) Obviously it goes forward like a knife through butter. It is also great for going backwards, an easy slice through the water. Easier to go backwards than to turn. It also, amazingly to me, goes sidewise easily. Prys and draws work well. I have found I have best control when I put the seat as far forward as possible. Does that sound right? I can now put the canoe wherever I want in this little pond. However, I have not begun to get the hang of an actual turn. My husband told me to lean more, and I am leaning...some....and it seems to help some, but not really. So maybe I'm not that "one" with the boat. I can put my mohawk over to the gunnel, so not sure what my problem is with the wenonah.

So suggestions to improve my turns would be appreciated. I also have not yet figured out how one would portage this boat. The seat and seat adjuster seem to be placed where I would normally put my head.

Thank you, all.
Erica

 

[yellowcanoe]

You are trying to make the Advantage do something it was not designed for. Put the Mohawk and the Advantage side to side.. Go to the bow and compare the cross sections of the hull from the front.

We are not talking side views.. that is irrelevant to this problem.

The Advantage is flatter bottom with an abrupt turn at the chines then a severe tuck up toward the gunwales. The widest point is lower to the ground. Once the boat is put on a slight edge that wide point is immersed and then due to the abrupt bilge it will turtle on you.

The Mohawk is more hammock saggy shape.. Its wide point is fairly high and the turn of the bilge gentle. This makes it oh so much easier to heel the boat. And the boat heels predictably.

In the Advantage if you do manage to force one side down that quick turn of the bilge will lead to rapid instability if the boat is heeled further. You get no notice before the bath.

Wipe the term lean out of your head! You do not lean, Usually,, ( unless you are counterbalanced)
Your boat heels.

This of Robyn Lowenthal is a heeled boat and a perfectly upright paddler
http://freestylecanoeing.com/adirondack-canoe-symposium/


Leaning best done by tandem
http://freestylecanoeing.com/

Portage difficulties: move the seat back and use a detachable solo yoke.

http://www.wenonah.com/Category.aspx?cat=85

 

[stripperguy]

Are you sitting or kneeling? You can surely put your Advantage's gunnel to the water...and rapidly underwater!! From a kneeling position, it'll be much easier for you to heel the boat over enough to make turning possible. If you're sitting and trying to heel over, don't.
After a few swims, you'll know where the limit is for heeling, it will be abrupt.

More important than kneeling and heeling, IMHO, is handling that hull in a quarter following wind.
If you generally day trip with an empty boat, bring a collapsible water jug with you on windy days. The easily shifted ballast will help you control that long hull, either upwind of downwind.
But do use caution with those quartering winds from behind...

 

[PaddlingPika]

Somewhere on one of the canoeing forums I read that turning a delta shape hull (like the Advantage) is a matter of skidding the stern rather than drawing the bow into a new direction. Focusing on skidding the stern around rather than trying to move the bow made a big difference for me in learning to turn my Wenonah Voyager. When trying to change direction with bow draws while underway, which worked fine in my shorter symmetric solos, the bow seemed planted in position and I ended up expending a lot of energy with little change in direction. Picturing the bow as a fixed pivot and with a slight heel (away from the direction of turn) working on moving the stern to change the direction the canoe is pointed gives much better results.

Wenonah makes a portage yoke to clamp onto the floor mounted seat frame of their solo canoes. I haven't tried one, but that seems to be the way to go if you have a Wenonah floor mounted seat.

http://www.wenonah.com/Items.aspx?id=59

 

[Mason]

It's certainly not a freestyle boat that Yellowcanoe is referencing, but it should respond well to subtle leans. The key is to allow the boat to turn a bit, and capitalize on that tendency. As you're paddling (since it has a seat, I'm assuming sit-and switch), the boat always has a tendency to turn away from the paddle if you're using a non-correcting, straight-ahead stroke. Thus, you'll be getting 4-6 strokes a side before you switch sides. For subtle turns, you can just keep paddling on one side, and the boat will turn away from your paddle. To stop the turn, just switch. For a more pronounced turn, you can lean very subtly to the outside of the turn--just slight hip angulation makes a big difference. You can also add sweeps--together with a hip rotation, you can slew the stern around pretty quickly. As you've noticed, cross draws are not very effective. In a cross draw, you're usually centered in the boat, and the stems are solidly planted in the water. You're pushing a lot of water with those stems. You can lean a bit in cross draws, but it is awkward, as you're leaning away from your paddle.

One thing worth trying, in order to see both how responsive leans are, and to see how far you can lean, is to paddle forward normally, and as the boat begins a slight turn (right before you'd normally switch sides to keep it straight) finish with sweep. Lay the paddle (which is on the outside of the turn) on the water with a slightly open face in a low brace position (so the paddle is skimming along the surface, and not diving). With this braced position, roll your hips to the outside of the turn. The boat will turn by itself, in an increasingly sharper arc. Your paddle is in the low brace position to provide stability, and is not causing the turn. The more you roll your hips, the quicker the turn. One thing I find very useful is to brace your knees under the gunnels--that locks you into the boat, and your position is much more stable and controllable.

Apart from sweeps, I rarely, if ever, use corrective stokes while paddling lakes and slow rivers in fast boats. For the most subtle turns, I just keep paddling on one side a bit longer, or add some hip rotation. Occasionally I might throw in a sweep. With some practice, fast boats can be pretty responsive while underway. Making them turn from a standstill is something quite different.

Your seat position will depend on your trip needs. In most of my Wenonahs over the years, that has been mostly forward in the range of the slider. In my C1W I'm all the way forward, and in the Voyager I'm only a couple of inches back. For trim, you'll find that a bow-heavy trim will result in the boat not tracking well--the stern will want to slide around, and you'll get fewer strokes per side before you have to switch. Even trim stabilizes that. With stern heavy, you're pushing water down in addition to parting it. And you'll probably be sitting well aft in the seat adjustment range, which just feels odd (can't lock your knees, boat is wider).

Except in whitewater, all of my paddling is sit-and-switch with a bent shaft paddle. The same principles will apply if you're kneeling with straight or bent shafted paddle. You'll just go faster and more efficiently with the sit-and-switch method.

Good luck--with some practice, you'll get the boat to be pretty responsive.

 

[Solo Paddler]

I also found the moves Mason mentioned helpful when paddling my graphite Wenonah Voyager. In fact, I utilize lean turns quite a bit similar to that of when I lean turn in my 18', 10" kayak. I make sure my torso/head is center and I drop my left or right leg to help turn, especially when moving. The boat moves and turns very well. As everyone knows, the Voyager performs differently when loaded. I find I sometimes have to spend a few more seconds trimming out the load for 4 or 5 day trips, but once set the boat handles very well, including lean turns. Whether loaded or unloaded, it moves, and I mean really moves! After first purchasing the boat I unintentionally startled wildlife, especially birds. When in certain habitat areas I back off on the speed rather than stress out the animals, and even "pull over" to view birds through binoculars. Good luck with your Advantage!

 

[Erica]

Thank you all for the tips. I am seated and switching sides. I am saving to buy a ZRE bent shaft 12%. I am very much enjoying learning to paddle a very different boat than I am used to. I think part of my problem with the turns is that the pond is not really big enough to get going. Will head out to larger waters the next calm day; been too windy lately for a first try.

Thanks,
Erica

 

[Cruiser]

Second post here may be a useful tip on turning

http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/forum/showthread.php/3472-Wenonah-Advantage

I may catch flack for this, but I would suggest trying a twin paddle (preferably longer intended for a canoe) ... once I tried it for my solo, I just couldn't go back to a single blade.

Brian

 

[yellowcanoe]

I wasn't referencing freestyle boats. As a matter of fact there is no such thing. Freestyle turns came out of touring boats but never worked as well in straight keeled no rocker boats. We had a student bring a Magic once. Now this was a boat friendly to heel to the rail. but its turning radius was well akin to that of a semi with a sleeper cab as opposed to a sportscar

All effective turns start with stern skids.. Unless you can get the stern to skid you only rely on the bow anchor to make the boat slew and that more often results in a meh sideslip. That is true for all boats. Even so called FS boats. in 21 years of teaching canoeing its the number one shortfall and disappointment to paddlers seeking to advance skills. Until the muscle memory develops to automate that stern skid you have to think on it. I agree that the boat needs a lot of speed ( and hence room ) to accomplish turns. This will come with time as you become more comfortable.

But now lets address the OP's sit and switch technique.. I'd advise trying to break the stern free with a deliberate hard sweep on the side away from the turn.. See what happens. I think that breaking that stern free is the hard part and due to the Advantages design might be impossible.. Then after that sweep youd have to switch sides and plant that hanging bow draw on the other side.. With a bent this takes some practice.

Also with boat heel.. Straight keeled boats respond better to edging turns AWAY from the direction of the turn. So dont heel into the turn heel away from it. Sea kayakers discover this pretty quickly.

I'd be more inclined just to spend seat time in the Advantage and enjoy it for what it is a non turny boat and shop for a used more rockered boat.. See.... the collecting starts!

No flack here but I see no need for a double.. I do use one on the ocean.

 

[memaquay]

My best tripping buddy recently switched to a double for his new solo. The guy is strong as an ox, and now he just disappears over the horizon when we are paddling. I keep ribbing him about it, especially when he told me he thinks a big umbrella would be a great tripping accessory too, for both rain and sun. I'm not there yet, I'll go 100 percent motorized probably before the Devil's Double.

 

[Dagger]

Yellowcanoe's comment "...Straight keeled boats respond better to edging turns AWAY from the direction of the turn. So don't heel into the turn heel away from it." is absolutely true. and certainly works well for my Wenonah Prism!

Two simple ways to edge straight keel canoes I found work very well.
1. Sitting/Switching: Put both feet next to each other on the foot brace, or floor of the canoe, opposite side of the direction you wish to turn. Paddle forward strokes on the same side of the canoe where your feet are, and maintain an upright sitting position throughout the maneuver. I found this technique provides a nice controllable slight heel toward the outside of the turn.

2. Kneeling: When kneeling (I mostly kneel in my canoes), maintain upright kneeling position, but slightly lift the knee of the side you wish to turn toward. No need to lose contact with the boat. In fact, don't! Just lift the knee enough to change your weight distribution toward the knee on the opposite side of the direction you wish to turn. Maintain forward strokes opposite of the side you wish to turn toward.
With a little experimentation and practice, you'll soon find what works for you.

Note: The above-described techniques work well for flat water and slow-moving water. Edging the Prism, and probably your canoe as well, upstream in any current is tricky and may result in an involuntary swim!

Good luck!

 

[goonstroke]

... I also have not yet figured out how one would portage this boat. The seat and seat adjuster seem to be placed where I would normally put my head.

What I do is put a pad (~6"x6" piece of ridgerest foam) right in front of the seat pedestal, and then carry the boat on my head. Stow the paddles toward the bow to get the balance right. However, I don't see anyone else doing it that way, maybe I have an unusually hard head.

 

[yellowcanoe]

What I do is put a pad (~6"x6" piece of ridgerest foam) right in front of the seat pedestal, and then carry the boat on my head. Stow the paddles toward the bow to get the balance right. However, I don't see anyone else doing it that way, maybe I have an unusually hard head.

See my post above. Having the load on your shoulders improves view and a single line with a fastex buckle in the middle allows trim up and trim down with slight hand pressure. No need to grab the gunwales with both or one hands.

 

[Kayak_Ken]

I picked up one of these for portageing my Voyager. It is quick and easy to attach/remove and when you find the right balance point and have the shoulder supports adjusted to fit you it works really well.

Kayak_Ken (in a canoe)

 

[goonstroke]

See my post above. Having the load on your shoulders improves view and a single line with a fastex buckle in the middle allows trim up and trim down with slight hand pressure. No need to grab the gunwales with both or one hands.

The nice thing about having the boat on your head is that most of the mass of the boat is well below the point of contact, so it's quite stable. Sorta like one of those dorky bobbing football helmet decorations people put in their car back windows. Most of the time I'm walking with no hands, which is great in the rain. However, no question the view would be a lot better with it up on my shoulders.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Other than some whitewater hulls with radical asymmetrical rocker, all boats turn by skidding the stern.

The stern will skid more easily if you do one or both of two things:

1. Lighten the stern by moving your gear or your seat position further forward. This, however, will have other effects that may outweigh the increased ease of turning -- namely, a decrease in tracking. Decreased tracking means the boat will be harder to go straight (= easier to turn), which means switching more frequently for the switch paddler or using a stronger correction for the single side paddler.

2. Heel the hull. This will cause the hull to ride on its curved chine, which in turn may lift the stems out of the water, making stern slides easier. By heeling, you are effectively shortening the waterline of the canoe. A hull with zero rocker has a keel line shape that is the least likely to lift the stems free with a heel. In addition, a tumblehomed hull is the most difficult side shape to heel at a steep angle with stability because the capsize point is low on the hull.

A turn can be enhanced by heeling the hull to the outside of the turn (a "post" turn) or to the inside of the turn (an "axle" turn). As others have stated, flat water racing canoes with zero (or almost zero) rocker and tumblehomed sides are usually turned with mild post turns. You can initiate a post with a sweep and try enhancing it further, not with a cross draw, but with a bow jam ("wedge"). Be prepared to be ejected from the canoe. You can also try an axle turn enhanced by a cross draw, but I have no practical experience in an Advantage to know how well this may work.

Keep experimenting with heels to different sides, at different angles, and with turn-enhancing draws, cross draws and wedges. You'll never be able to maneuver the hull like one that is more rockered and with a straight or flared side contour, but learning to feel, understand and control the water pressure changes on your paddle blade and hull will improve paddling technique in all hulls.

I have not much to offer on portaging -- an ancient French word that means "poor route planning" -- other than to observe that it's best practiced by males under 40 and by those who paddle in minus sign climates.

A double bladed paddle, whatever its other merits or Satanic evils, will not help turn or portage the canoe, which I think were the OP's primary issues.

 

[pblanc]

Unless you have a very unusual Advantage, your boat is 16 1/2' long rather than 17' long.

As others have said, the Advantage is very straight keeled and has a lot of tumblehome with a sharp and relatively narrow prow. The original hull that the commercial Advantage derived from was actually designed by Dave Kruger as a downriver racer. In downriver racing the point is to get downstream as quickly as possible without swamping out. Sharp turns waste time and are undesirable.

The long, straight keel allows the hull to track well but makes it reluctant to turn. The very considerable tumblehome makes the canoe rather unfriendly to anything more than a moderate degree of heel for most paddlers, although how much you can heel the boat will depend on your weight. Smaller paddlers do not sink that tumblehome bubble as deep in the water and can heel the boat a little more before all secondary stability is lost.

I am assuming that your boat has a sliding tractor seat and a foot brace. The tractor seats make kneeling difficult for most people, and the hull is really not designed to be paddled that way anyhow. You might be able to enhance your stability in the boat by fashioning some knee bumpers out of closed cell foam and shaping them to fit the outside contour of your knees. These can be glued to the sides of the hull just below the gunwales and can make it more comfortable to lock your knees when you heel the boat.

Unless you are an extraordinary paddler with exceptional balance, you are not going to be able to heel that boat enough to free up the stems. But you might be able to make the stern a little less sticky by shifting your body weight forward as you execute your turns. In my opinion, unless you find yourself in a very tight spot, trying to turn that boat with draws, cross draws, or wedges is counterproductive. Yes, you can make it turn that way, but in that boat those strokes will kill your forward momentum to such an extent that you would be better off using just forward strokes with a bit of sweep on the outside of the turn combined with a heel to the outside of the turn. This will allow you to keep your momentum up and will result in a wide radius turn, but you might find yourself turned around and going in the opposite direction sooner than if you had tried to horse the boat around in a tight radius turn. Think of a jet fighter traveling at high speed and executing a 6 G 180 degree turn. The pilot will complete that turn sooner than a pilot in a slow biplane will, even though the biplane can execute a much tighter turn.

When you heel your canoe to the outside of the turn, think about weighting the cheek of your butt on that side more than lifting the canoe at the inside of the turn. You should also feel the side of your torso on the inside of the turn "scrunching up" a bit to make sure that your upper body and head remain centered between the gunwales as the canoe heels. Practice making wide turns with progressively greater degrees of outside heel to define your comfort level for heeling that canoe. As you do this, concentrate on the feeling of increased pressure on the outside buttock, and the scrunching up of the inside of the torso. I would use primarily forward strokes but with a bit of a sweep component on the outside of the turn. You could also experiment with using a shallow C stroke on the inside of the turn. If you are not familiar with the C stroke, it is something like the inverse of a sweep stroke, with a bit of a draw added at the start of the stroke, and a bit of an outward J hook at the end. These strokes will not kill your forward momentum too much, but will offer some encouragement for your boat to turn.

 

[gumpus]

Hi Erica. I have one additional comment. If you will ever use the boat for downstream paddling on rivers or creeks (anywhere with current pushing you) then I think you need to practice steering your Advantage by backpaddling. One can get into a very exciting situation very quickly going downstream in a lake boat and coming up on obstacles.

 

[Alan Gage]

I think Pblanc is right on.

I've spent some time in straight keeled racing hulls and turning them is different for sure. I find it easiest (and most enjoyable) to look ahead and plan your moves well in advance. It's a good feeling to see an obstruction upstream and gently change your angle of attack before you actually reach it so you take just the right line around it without breaking rhythm or altering your stroke.

Alan

 

[Erica]

Thank you all again so much. I have some more things to try and practice with. This is so helpful for me. I take the advice about the river paddling seriously, thank you for the reinforcement of those cautions. I am sitting with knees propped just under the gunnels and with the seat as far forward as it will go.

What is the difference between "heeling" and "leaning?"

What is "skidding?"

I am not familiar with "heeling" and "skidding." I thought I knew what leaning was, but maybe not. I can get some idea via context, but if someone can explain terms further, I would appreciate it.

Erica