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Cedar Strip: hull form & oilcanning

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I'm looking at building another Cedar Strip (my third) and would like to take the best of what I have done so far and improve on it...

One thing that I have noticed on both of my previous builds is that the hull tends to oilcan a bit. Paddlers can get the hull to oscillate just by bouncing in the seats. Nothing permanent, the hull relaxes to its normal shape when taken out.

I know that the hull is a little flat across the bottom, so this may be normal.

Basically, this is a question for other builders: How much flex would you expect from such a hull? Any techniques that you might use to mitigate this in a new build?

Tech Specs:

16' LOA, 15' 9" LWL.
36" beam @ gunwale.
Appx. 33" beam waterline (Don't have my drawings, will update if I get a chance to measure the form)
About 1 1/4" arch in the flat portion of the hull, and about 2 1/2" rocker. (Measured at stems off line parallel to WL passing through deepest part of hull.)

1/4" White Cedar Strips, Flat/bevel fit (no cove & bead)
1 layer 6oz. E-glass in epoxy.

I'm also thinking of taking a page from Jim dodd's pearl build and adding either some tumblehome or a shoulder to the hull, as the other issue (and much more practical one, I think) is that handling either of these hulls solo, or seated anywhere except rather near the ends, has been a bit of a challenge due to the width.

Any thoughts or insight would be appreciated. Setup would be tandem, perhaps with (optional) provision for a third (very lightweight, and only on gear-free day paddles.) If I go for this option, I may also stretch the forms out to 17' or a bit over.
 

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Hmmmmm......I've never had a cedarstrip hull oilcan, and I've built over 20. I use bead and cove, but I can't see that being that significant. Perhaps other builders will have answers.
 
Oil Canning is a problem for sure !

One of my best friends built a very light tandem, that oil canned enough that one layer of glass separated while in the BWCA.
Duct tape got him back home.

Two suggestions, With your stripping technic, you could use thicker strips in just the bottom. Or add a second layer of cloth, 4 or 6oz. I do this to the outside, but some advise to put it on the inside.

With a 36" wide hull, that's a lot of span to keep ridged.

I'm glad to hear that you want to improve and keep building ! That's exactly why I kept building !

The thing that helped my building process the most, was Bead and Coving my strips ! I edge planed my first three. Good experience, but B and C was my best move up the ladder !

Glad your building !!!

Jim
 
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Wow... that sounds like a lot of flex! These didn't do nearly that much... more like 3/8" wobble/ripple as stress shifted.

Thanks for the feedback. I agree that 36" is a bit wide. It was my first attempt at a canoe, and considering that, I don't think it was too bad.
My second canoe, built on the same forms, was only 32" (I pulled three of the center forms and re-distributed the rest)

I'm definitely going with C&B for the next one - hand-fitting all of the chine edges was not the best part, and I had strips that didn't want to stay flat, which made me have to sand/shape more later, so the hull was probably thinner than intended. (Memaquay, this is the only way that I could see that difference being significant)

I have considered another cloth layer, and have been enjoying the debates about inside VS outside here. To enhance strength/stiffness against pressure from outside, I would probably go with an inside layer, but then I lose the extra abrasion resistance from a good outside layer.

Does anyone know of a comparison of 2-layer 4oz vs 1 layer 6oz? Both previous builds came out at about 55# +/- with fittings, and I kind of want to keep from increasing that much. I've also considered running lateral stiffeners, perhaps carbon ($$ Eek!) or glass tape under the main layer. If some of the people on other threads are correct that the edge of an under-layer wet out at the same time as the full cover just kind of blends in, maybe just use 3" wide strips of leftover cloth?

I'm currently canoe-less, sold both of the others to make room for & finance #3, But I would like to take the prep time to make sure I get things right(er) this time.
 

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A full layer of 4oz and a 4oz layer up to about the 4" waterline would be great, especially on a solo !

For a tandem, I'd lean more to a full 6oz, and a 4oz layer to the 4" waterline. Just my thinking, if saving weight.


Your journey so far is near identical to mine ! I widened my first boat. I still have it, but have modified those forms several times. I sold a canoes to finance my next builds, knowing I could always build another.

I rarely build a canoe as originally designed. The excitement of building something different is a big draw for me.

Being "canoe-less", sure gives a guy some incentive ! Hang in there, and here !
Nice build by the way !

Jim
 
This canoe is 17 feet long, 36 inches wide at the carrying yoke, one layer of six ounce inside and out. It doesn't oil can, I can sit on it upside down on the ground and there is very little flex.


I am a big fan of double layers on the bottom, but that is strictly for abrasion resistance. I'm still puzzled with the oilcanning of strippers. What pattern are you using to strip the bottoms? I use the bullseye type pattern, that is strip all the way on one side and cut a straight line, then match the strips on the other side. Perhaps I'm grasping at straws. I have never heard of oil canning being a common problem with strippers.
 
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Now that is a fun picture!

My stripping patterns:
#1 has a name, but can't remember it. (Nick Schade's book on building a kayak) Up the side until I get to the football, Two strips down the center, then alternate inner and outer strips to fill in each side, fit each strip into the last.

#2 started similarly, but see the photo: two center strips, then inset the walnut. The borders are fairly obvious, but the tracery that cuts across the strip pattern was "sprung" across the open space to a pleasing curve, and then the gaps filled in with straight strips. Love the effect, but will not use that method to achieve it again.

Based on what you and Jim have said today, I suspect that I ended up removing too much material in the fairing process. (I know that the #2 at least did have some issues with this, I had to patch back a bit that had gone too far. #1 was far enough back that I don't have a clear memory of what I had to do to fair it anymore.) That's one reason I'm switching to Cove & Bead - hopefully, It will be easier to line up the strips, then I'll mostly just have to worry about the glue drips.

I also suspect that my bottom is less rounded than the canoe you are showing, which may make a bit of difference. I've sat on this one upside-down as well, and it did support me. The flex that I noticed might not even be enough to call "oil-caning." It certainly didn't take on a negative curve!
 

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It will be very interesting to follow your build, I hope you take us along. If your bead and cove strips are very uniform in their width, I think your sanding will be considerably less. I have built some canoes for our school club where another teacher and some kids were ripping up the lumber, and they payed very little attention to keeping the strips uniform as they shoved them through the table saw. There was a lot of sanding on those canoes, even with the bead and cove.
 
You don't glass the inside at all?

I've done one boat, 1/4" strips, bead and cove, 34" wide, 6oz inside and out, one layer, no flex until you ride up on a log or rock.
 
The canoe I wrote about was a MCA design, The Osprey. The builder did not bead and cove his strips. He hand beveled. I fear that the strips shifted on him, and when he sanded, had a very thin hull as a result.
I can remember trying to melt rod tip adhesive, to help patch the hull. We kept his water gear bags over the spilt. Just the day before he bragged how light his canoe was.
I've double layered the outside on everything since.

Jim
 
Jim Dodd Thanks for the comment! That was my pretty one. I'll keep the idea of using some 4oz. in mind, though JamestownDistributors seems to only have it in odd lengths... And it's looking like I must have really done a number on the hull thickness to have this happen at all!

memaquay I'm going to try to document this build a lot better than the last two, and I'll see if I can bring you guys along. Perhaps you can steer me away from any major "Oops" moments you see coming up. Thanks for the shout-out about consistent thickness. I already have plans to deal with that, but reminders are always good. I'll probably cut a little fat, and then run a kiss pass through a thickness planer before routing the C&B.

I may also find out how well the "Tape Trick" works for me, as for the first time, I may add an extra layer for abrasion resistance. Probably 6" back along the stems, extending into a partial football, ending about 3' back. (I don't see running the whole bottom along anything, but sometimes you don't have a choice except to use a gravel beach.)

Mihun09 I did glass both inside and out. I you are referring to where I asked about comparing 6oz. and 2x 4oz, I meant per side.
 
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Okay, I've spent a little time with the computer, mocking up some options for my build. Sorry, the program I'm using is intended for art & animation, not CAD. Hope the screenshots give some useful info. I should note that these are an approximation - I no longer have the original drawings, and have not taken a full set of measurements off the forms, but for visualization purposes, should be very close.

The Straight-sided version is what I have already built, the other two are what I am considering.

I'm trying to address one thing here: the hulls I've built so far have been a little wide to paddle anywhere but very near the ends.

Intended uses:
Day-tripping on sheltered flat water both as solo and tandem, maybe a little more open if the weather is good.
Tandem day-trip in current - tight quarters rivers such as Kickapoo & Pecatonica in SW WI. No Whitewater.
Some light over-nighting on similar waters, and larger flat rivers.

Any thoughts on these lines, or things I should be aware of? Specifically, do you think that the tumblehome/shoulder I have marked would be sufficient to ease paddle reach? Any other gotchas that you see in my future? I'm a fairly light paddler, about 135#, And most of my tandem partners would be similar, if not smaller.

Grids are marked in inches, 4 inches/grid. Widest point on the straight side is 32" or a bit more, dimensions are form size, hull built on top of that. (+ 1/4 inch)
 

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Maybe Alan will weigh in on this, as he's done some great designs !

How many forms are you going to be using, and the spacings?

I usually save tumblehome for my solos, I don't see the need in a tandem. I like the LOOKS of the shouldered tumblehome !

I like the flare. Maybe a little more, if you're doing any whitewater.

I would rocker the stems, to add maneuverability.

How long are you going to make it ? I like 17' for tandems, so I'd maybe compromised at 16' 6"

That's my preferences, but the world doesn't revolve around me ! :rolleyes:

Jim
 
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Spacing... is a little complicated.
I originally built on 11 forms, 16" spacing, and a beam of 36" That boat had a good deal more capacity than I'd estimated, and with a full flare like that, was definitely a tandem, sit in one place type canoe. *See note.
The second boat I wanted to be slimmer, so I pulled the center three forms and splined the rest into a fair curve. (flare is constant along the length of the hull.)
This brought the beam down to 32" The longest spacing was about 24", and then got closer together as I approached the ends.

Tumblehome: Part of my issue is that I kind of need a crossover, that can be used both solo and tandem. (I don't have the space for the kind of collection that you seem to have...) I did paddle the slimmed version solo, but found that I needed to carry about 100# of sand as ballast! Possibly, a better paddler could have done without, but I simply couldn't settle in and trim that canoe well enough solo and still be able to get a paddle over the side.

One thing I really liked about the slimmer build was the glide in the water. It was a very slick-moving canoe (subjectively, at least, and compared to the more mass market type production boats) On one occasion, at least, the group my brother and I were paddling with accused us of having a trolling motor hidden away somewhere...

And so, that's where I started this time. That build ended up with very little rocker. (Build error, but now that I know, easy to fix.) Currently, I'm set up for a 16' build. If I wanted to go longer, I'd just re-arrange the forms a bit. (A good straight-grain strip is very useful for this.) At 17' or more, I might consider adding back one of the next up forms, bringing beam (with flare) up to 34. WL beam in that case would be about 30.5" but then I'm getting to a point where I might not be able to solo...

How much rocker are you thinking? As of now, the sketches have about 3", measured parallel to the waterline. This is a smooth continuous curve starting right at the center. Under a moderate load, I'd expect the tips of the stems to draw about 1", possibly less with a light load/solo.

I'm liking the looks of the shouldered tumblehome, too. I do have some concerns about it though, so if Alan Gage does drop by, I may have a few questions for him, or anyone else who has ever built one into a strip canoe.


*Note: Perhaps a more experienced paddler would have better results with other arrangements. The Gentleman I sold it to and I took her out just this past weekend, and I hardly recognized the handling with a competent paddler in the stern.
 
Take a hard look at Alan's Expedition Build thread.
I think you'll find some good info !

Jim
 
Or loft a plan off a chestnut Pal. It is a smaller tandem that functions well as a solo and would probably meet most of your needs. I built two of them for our school club and use them for kids around your weight.
 
I'll give my thoughts but take them with a grain of salt. None of my designs have more than a few miles on them yet and one, the tandem, hasn't even been in the water but I'm hoping to get a chance to paddle it this weekend. But going through the process of designing and building has made me think a lot harder about design and intended usage.

What I really like about designing your own boat is being able to build it specifically for you and how you intend to use it rather than most production boats which usually are, understandably, meant to handle a wider variety of conditions and paddlers

"Intended uses:
Day-tripping on sheltered flat water both as solo and tandem, maybe a little more open if the weather is good.
Tandem day-trip in current - tight quarters rivers such as Kickapoo & Pecatonica in SW WI. No Whitewater.
Some light over-nighting on similar waters, and larger flat rivers........I'm a fairly light paddler, about 135#, And most of my tandem partners would be similar, if not smaller."

No whitewater, no big water, no serious tripping, small paddlers, and no dogs. I'd say you're on the right track with a tandem in the 16'x33" wide ballpark. You might even be able to get by with less depending on how comfortable you and your partner are in "tippier" canoes.

All else being equal a 15'x33" canoe should be tippier than a 18'x33" canoe. With a longer canoe there's just simply more of it, especially in the center, which is the section that has the most effect on stability. So as you go shorter it's harder to cut back on the width. I don't know how tippy a 16'x33" canoe would be and tippyness is a very subjective thing anyway, but I don't think I'd have a problem with it. Your weight (and I assume shorter stature) should give you more stability.

If I remember correctly Jonathan Winters states that the sides have a bigger effect on stability than the bottom of the hull. A flat bottomed hull (which we usually think of as very stable) with vertical sides will have less stability than a very rounded bottom where the sides have constant flare. I've been surprised on more than one occasion when I run a stability check on a hull design and find that something I thought would decrease stability increased it instead.

Constant flare gives the most stability and sheds the most water. It also makes for the widest hull at the gunwales. Rounded tumblehome will give less stability since it starts to tuck in lower on the hull, sheds less water, looks the sexiest (IMO), is easier to build, and gives the narrowest gunwales. The sharply knuckled tumblehome seems like a compromise between the two. The flare is carried higher on the hull before tucking in, aiding in wave shedding and secondary stability.

Looking at production hulls it seems that canoes meant for lighter conditions and more efficient travel have rounded tumblehome (Bell Magic) while canoes that may see heavier loads or bigger water (Osprey) sacrifice some of the paddling comfort and use the sharply knuckled tumblehome. They both have their place, as do non-tumblehomed hulls, which seem fine on most tandem canoes.

When it comes to tumblehome on tandem canoes I don't think the bow paddler should really need any. The canoe already gets narrower as they reach forward to take a stroke; in your application especially since you shouldn't need an extremely high or wide bow to shed water. Tumblehome can help the stern paddler since the hull is flaring wider in front of them but even then it's probably not as important since he/she is sitting pretty far back where the hull is narrower anyway. I do think it looks very nice though. When I designed my tandem I started the tumblehome behind the bow paddler to leave the extra flare in the bow and give most of the benefit to the stern paddler.

I did paddle the slimmed version solo, but found that I needed to carry about 100# of sand as ballast! Possibly, a better paddler could have done without, but I simply couldn't settle in and trim that canoe well enough solo and still be able to get a paddle over the side.

If you're not going to be sitting in the center of the boat you're going to need ballast. The boat needs to be properly trimmed to be effective. Otherwise you've got a lightweight bow that you have no control over getting blown every which way. Some canoes, like my Bell Northstar, have a kneeling twart installed a little ahead of the stern seat. This gets you closer to the center of the canoe, requiring less ballast in the bow and the gunwales are narrower. Other people flip the canoe around and paddle it backwards from the bow seat. This does the same thing by getting you closer to the center and in a narrower spot in the hull. That means you can't have a canted front seat and most asymetrical hulls might not like being paddled that way.

Sitting in the center is difficult because the hull is so dang wide but at least it gives you control of the bow and stern. If in the center you're probably best off kneeling towards one side and paddling it heeled over for easier reach to your on side. Given your weight I'm guessing you don't have terribly long arms.

I don't like using a tandem as a solo. I have lots of solo canoes so that's what I'm used to. IMO if you're sitting well behind the center you don't have enough (any) control over the bow and the high sides of a tandem really act as a sail in the wind. Probably not so bad if you're loaded down for a trip but for day paddles with the wind blowing I find it very aggravating. All that being said lots of people paddle that way and seem to be pretty happy doing it. It's your boat and you're the only one you have to make happy so do whatever it takes. Look at 3x27 racing hulls to see how they give the stern paddler a narrow paddling station. You probably don't want to get that carried away but it's fun to play around with non traditional ideas. You could make the center of the boat relatively wide (36") for stability and really tuck it in at the stern for a narrow paddling station. Something like that should be easier for you since you're not worried about carrying a pair of 200 pound paddlers and two weeks worth of gear down rivers and across big windy lakes.

I don't know what to say about rocker. It's such a goofy measurement since there's no consensus about where to actually measure it. 1" of rocker to one person might be 3" of rocker to someone else depending on where it was measured. I just judge it by eyeball looking at the shape of the boat and the water line at different loads. I try to measure it consistently on the hulls I build so that I can hopefully make semi-direct comparisons between them but trying to compare them to other hulls on paper is questionable.

Have you tried Delftship? A nearly fully functional version is available for free. I paid for the full version hoping it would give me some extra goodies but none of them really panned out. I would have been fine sticking with the free version. I thought it had a pretty steep learning curve but after about 5 or 6 hours I felt pretty comfortable. I really like having it do the hull calculations for me at different loads and the Kaper program that's built into it is great for seeing how your changes affect efficiency through the water. It doesn't do stability calculations, at least not that I've been able to find, but I export the files to another free CAD program I found that does the calculations and that's been great as well. Can't remember the name now. If you're interested let me know and I'll get the name and tell you how to import the file and run the calculations. Very easy.

These are the stability calculations from my tandem:

V4 stability by Alan Gage, on Flickr

V4_2 stability by Alan Gage, on Flickr

Yours looks great and it sounds like you've got things well in hand. Always lots of fiddling and tweaking. Good luck!

Alan
 
memaquay The pal looks like a lovely boat. No idea where I would find one to measure, around here most peoples canoes are alumacraft 'resort specials' or equivalent. :(- It looks like Stewart River Boatworks will sell a full set of plans for $35, which is not bad. They claim to have raised the sheer at the ends, but otherwise to have combined info pulled from several different Pals. I was not intending to start with an entirely new set of forms, but this canoe & its reputation are kind of making me think.

It's also interesting to see the differences and similarities. Comparing the Stewart River dimensions, and just looking at the wetted area when flat, it seems that the Pal was a bit wider than my original plan, which I thought was fairly wide. Of course, the hull form through the quarters is probably different. Wonder what that would do to handling? Pal is virtually certain to be superior, but I kind of wish I knew in what ways...

Alan Gage , Thanks for the detailed post. I would be glad if you could point out the stability software you use. (Not sure I'll actually change much, but seeing a bit of an idea of where things land could be handy.) I may end up trying delftship. Their modeling approach is similar to the art program I use, so that part should be easy to get used to.

Other people flip the canoe around and paddle it backwards from the bow seat. This does the same thing by getting you closer to the center and in a narrower spot in the hull.
Tried this. Still too far from the center, and once I had resigned myself to carrying ballast, why not sit facing forward?

If in the center you're probably best off kneeling towards one side and paddling it heeled over for easier reach to your on side.
Now this is something that might work well, If I had the skill to pull it off. Perhaps that stance that is called "canadian style" would help. Part of the issue is I was light enough that the boat was too far out of the water.

I don't know how tippy a 16'x33" canoe would be and tippyness is a very subjective thing anyway,
Well, on the waterline, it was more like 16'x28." Never seemed to have much of an issue, was somewhat sensitive for the first few degrees, but someone would need to put a fair amount of weight outboard to bring a gunwale down to water level, especially when going tandem.

Rounded tumblehome will give less stability since it starts to tuck in lower on the hull, sheds less water, looks the sexiest (IMO)
Interesting how perceptions can differ on something like this. a rather visceral reaction to this feature taken to extremes (think of one of the lake boats that has the hull heading back in by the time you are a third of the way up the side) helps explain why I had a completely flared hull the first time around. :)

I don't know what to say about rocker. It's such a goofy measurement since there's no consensus about where to actually measure it. 1" of rocker to one person might be 3" of rocker to someone else depending on where it was measured.
You can say that again. The rocker numbers for that Chestnut Pal re-boot are half of what I sketched, but by eye, I suspect that it is actually more rockered.

I did take a moment to look up USCA racing specs, and found that if I am reading them correctly, my second build (current flared lines) would actually have been in C2Std if it had had flotation and about 1.5" more sheer or thereabouts at the stems. My gunwale width was actually an inch to narrow for 3x27, though the 3" waterline could have been slimmed by an inch. Not quite what I had expected. Of course, I realize that real racing canoes have different hull forms from our normal canoes, and that they stretch the specs right to the limit...
 
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One doesn't really notice the "smallness" of the Pal, until it is side by side with a prospector or a regular sized tripping canoe. It somewhat big for a solo, but should be a very good size for two lightweights.
 
I like Memaquays comments. Oil canning is very disconcerting. It seems that some boats, maybe those with more rocker are less prone to flexing. I have added layers of glass and epoxy to several canoes that got roughed up over the years to good effect.

Years ago I delivered a couple in wedding attire in a raft to a reception on the Truckee River above Reno. We ran a couple of rapids and the bride stepped out on the beach with a long train and was perfectly dry. Fun times. Thanks for the reminding me of it.
 
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