Building a Square Stern ?

[Jim Dodd]

Have been thinking how I could build a short canoe, that would paddle like a longer canoe !
Proverbial question right !

I have 16' strips cut, beaded and coved, waiting to be put into a canoe, .
Awhile back I had the distinct pleasure of Meeting and paddling with Alan Gage !
Alan gave me the opportunity to paddle his Barracuda (A Winters Design). What an eye opener ! Pure FAST !

The first thing I realized was it's length compared to my canoes. OK, to build a, say Barracuda or something similar, I'd need longer strips.

Idea pops into my feeble brain ! Square Stern !
By modifying one of my shorter canoe designs, so that it had a square stern, I could stretch the forms, and maybe do this !

Years ago I paddled an Aluminum square stern, a tandem. The first thing I realized was how easy it turned.

Any and all thoughts appreciated ! (Mostly Positive)

Jim

 

[Rippy]

Jim, I have seen two styles of square stern canoes. The traditional one is just squared off and I think this is what you are talking about. The other is square above the water line by flaring it and adding a transom. I am told the squared off ones take more effort to paddle as they don't glide as well as a traditional canoe shape. Due to the paddling inefficiency the only reason I can see to have a square stern canoe is so that you can portage (on your back) store on a rack, and haul car top, a motorized boat. Looking at your post I don't think you are looking for a inefficient design. Dave

 

[charlie wilson]

I agree with Rippy. Consider what a square stern will do to length/width ratio, which is a rough approximation of tracking ability more properly calculated as Block Co-Efficient. Forward efficiency, best calculated as Prismatic Co-Efficient, also suffers grievously. Then calculate the theoretical maximum speed, two wave wash, of the shorter boat; square root of waterline length multiplied by 1.55 = mph. The square box inserted above waterline as per Sawyer, will be vastly superior to a transomed hull as per SportsPal.

 

[BWCA66]

My Dad had one for years that we used with a 3 horse outboard when I was a kid. It was the traditional just squared off one. Two things I remember well, it was heavier because of the added strength/material to hold a motor and it did not paddle as well as a regular canoe I think because of the extra weight and drag at the square end even without the motor.

 

[ppine]

It makes a back ferry a lot harder. It is not hard to add a motor bracket to any canoe for the use of a motor. It just does not look right.

 

[Mihun09]

Go borrow a friends 16 foot aluminum fishing boat and try paddling it.

 

[Iskweo]

For years I paddled a 15.5 foot Scott freighter, Y stern. It worked pretty good. It was rather heavy but I managed to paddle it by myself. Not that I would recommend it as a solo. I have seen some Mad River Y sterns too but they are pretty narrow and I am not sure they would be as stable as my Scott. Perhaps an aluminum canoe would be good ??

I was thinking just today about the idea of a 15 foot y stern, say about 36 wide, wood canvas or strippper. Light as I can make it. Maybe a 2.0 hp for it. This could make my canoeing easier. Just an idea. I was looking at a homemade one like this the other day that is a lawn ornament now. So not a bad idea if you can adapt a design and use the Y stern configuration.

Christine

 

[Jim Dodd]

A Y stern ! Now that would work ! I could leave the waterline area as designed in a longer canoe, and shorten the strips from the bilge on up to the shear.
Thanks Christine, and everyone else !

I could even slant the Y stern forward, as I wouldn't use a motor anyway. This might even catch less wind !
You've got me dreaming !
Thanks !

Jim

 

[Robin]

I actually see a wood canvas square stern canoe in my future. I see a big lake way up north, maybe in Manitoba or Saskatchewan, maybe up near Yellowknife. Load it up with my canvas tent/wood stove, cot, a lawn chair, a cooler of good eats and cold beer, just set the kicker on cruise and head down the lake sitting up near the middle with a long control stick. When I see a nice campsite I'll set up and chill out.

 

[Jim Dodd]

I can see it too !! Maybe just enough wind to keep the bugs at bay, and enough to gently lap the water against shore. A loon or two out front !

Jim

 

[Iskweo]

I have a line on a 19 footer near here but that is a bit big for one person to handle.

 

[Robin]

I was over at Schuyler Thomson's shop yesterday and I told him about this 20'er I have, Old Town Guide. I said I wanted to cut the end off and add a transom.
He told me that when folks first asked Old Town Canoe makers to build a square stern canoe they used the 18' Guide form and built a transom onto the end rather than a pointed end.
His thoughts where that if I brought my 20'er over he would be able to figure out the best option for stability and performance as to where to put the transom. He mentioned the raised transom Chestnut used or the traditional full transom. I would prefer the traditional transom and I would like to cut the canoe down to about 16', for some serious weight saving. I would mainly use it solo, loaded with canvas tent, wood stove, gear, cooler and cot, and the problem of getting it up on the roof of my truck would be less troublesome vs. a full 20' boat imo.
Add a 2-4 hp kicker and down that big lake up north I would cruise.

I'm thinking that the cut off would be midway between the stern seat and the stern thwart, the canoe begins to narrow there to about 24" (widest point on the canoe is 36")
I realize I will be ruining the canoe as a paddler but I have alot of paddlers and this will be a fun project/new faze canoe for an ageing paddler who still wants alot of wood and canvas in front as he travels down the lake.

 

[ppine]

If you are going to build a square stern, are you going to add beam, fullness in the rear end and spray rails? Otherwise just build a regular canoe made to be paddled and you can add a motor mount anytime you want.

 

[Robin]

If you are going to build a square stern, are you going to add beam, fullness in the rear end and spray rails? Otherwise just build a regular canoe made to be paddled and you can add a motor mount anytime you want.

I already own canoes that could take a side mount, nothing wrong with that system imo, just not what I'm looking for. The 20'er I own is not in high demand these days, so I don't mind sacrificing it for my own wants. You don't need fullness in the rear end, here's a smaller Grand Laker type that is pretty close to what I'm looking to replicate, narrows down in the stern without spray rails.
I would only be using a small 2-4 hp 30-50lb 4 stroke at the most, and my tripping style allows me the advantage of sitting out big wind.
Appreciate your thoughts, Thanks

 

[Guest]

A Y stern ! Now that would work ! I could leave the waterline area as designed in a longer canoe, and shorten the strips from the bilge on up to the shear.

Something like this (scroll down to 1967 Sawyer Safari)

http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/5792593

 

[Jim Dodd]

Robin
The canoe in your bottom picture, has me a little concerned.

I wouldn't be comfortable clamping an outboard to the canvased transom !
And it looks like staples are used to fasten the canvas covering on the transom.

By the time you cut off the stern, replace it with, I'm guessing a marine plywood transom, and bracing the transom, to handle the force of an outboard, would you be losing that much weight ?

Jim

 

[Robin]

Hi Jim,
I just used that image as an example to respond to ppine, tapered hull, no spray rails. I don't know anything else about that canoe, although I like the looks of it. I think those are tacks you see, but I could be wrong. I'm sure there is more than stapled canvas holding that transom on, I can see the braces up near the gunnels. That looks like a pretty well built wood/canvas canoe imo.
Schuyler Thomson, (I mentioned him in post #12), he's resorted/built over 3000 canoes, mostly wood canvas, but he does lapstrake also. He builds a 16 foot square stern canoe, but for me to use his shop, form, material this winter would cost me about $3-3.5 K. In his opinion the 20' footer can be cut down and a transom can be added. I never mentioned the material used for the transom, but to clarify, Schuyler mentioned using Mahogany. I doubt if I (or Schuyler) would be happy using Marine plywood in a wood canvas canoe
I'm not sure of the weight savings, but it would be lighter imo. I'm of the opinion that I would be better served trying to load a 16' square stern canoe, one end at a time from the back of the truck vs. a 20' heavier double ended canoe.
I have nothing against traditional canoes with motors on the side, I have a older friend who uses his (20') that way, but he never goes alone as it's too heavy to load. Me, I prefer to build for a solo trip.

 

[Mihun09]

Hey Robin, the 4 feet you hack off the OT can be made into a custom canvas covered shelf unit for your workshop!

 

[Robin]

Oh no, I'd get booted out of the WCHA making bookcases out of canoes.

 

[tump_lion]

No Title

interesting thread, hopefully i'll be picking up a 17' square-stern on saturday. decals say chestnut, but they're easy to stick on, we'll see. kicker will be my 4hp johnson twin...