Yeah, that's what I hear! I'm looking forward to seeing what it's like on the water. The weather forecast has more thunderstorms lined up for us after work today, so it looks like I get to try her out tomorrow at the earliest.
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Wenonah Advantage / C1W opportunity
- Thread starter Magnus919
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Yeah, that's what I hear! I'm looking forward to seeing what it's like on the water. The weather forecast has more thunderstorms lined up for us after work today, so it looks like I get to try her out tomorrow at the earliest.
The seller reached back out to me with some photos that may be of historic interest, especially to anyone who Googles their way into this thread. He says the Advantage was designed by Dave Kruger, who is pictured here (the one with the full beard) paddling his own Advantage:
My wife was blown away by how light it is, but as she was helping me to get everything up on the racks she wanted to lift the Advantage up herself and she felt bad asking... "Do they come any lighter than this?"
At least now I know how to get more toys approved by the CFO.
I suggest a 2-pronged approach - a lighter boat AND she hits the gym. Time to build a little more muscle which will serve her now and in her coming years!
So I snuck out of work early and hit the lake for a few hours today.
Initial impressions:
Anyway, I need more time with this boat to figure it out. And work out something for the seating & feet.
Initial impressions:
- It's a lot lighter on initial stability than my Old Town barges, but I didn't fall in. So maybe it's "good enough". Did have that "tippy" sense that gradually faded as I went.
- I didn't push the secondary stability much to comment on that.
- I used the motorboat ramp and thus did get into some wake from the powerboats that won't slow down. No problem.
- Tracks like a train on rails.
- Turns like an arrow.
- Single blade strokes that have worked well for me in my OT barges have an almost negligible effect on the path of this dart.
- The boat was much quicker, more controllable, with a 240cm double blade.
- Still doesn't like to turn, though.
- Seat is too high but not adjustable. Hmmm. I'd love this boat more if I were sitting 2-3 inches lower.
- Foot rest is a metal bar that doesn't move. It's screwed into two blocks of wood cast into the layup of the boat. The only way to adjust it is to drill more holes and hope you get it right. This had my knees up too high which I don't care for. I need to find an adjustable option here.
- The seat was all the way back. I was shoving my backpack further and further back to get the balance I was after. Maybe I need more weight in the backpack (there wasn't much).
- Very narrow boat. Packing it for a trip will require some creativity and logistic flexibility.
Anyway, I need more time with this boat to figure it out. And work out something for the seating & feet.
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- Foot rest is a metal bar that doesn't move. It's screwed into two blocks of wood cast into the layup of the boat. The only way to adjust it is to drill more holes and hope you get it right. This had my knees up too high which I don't care for. I need to find an adjustable option here.
https://www.wenonah.com/Items.aspx?id=29
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Here also is an informative thread, you can search adjustable foot brace on there as well. There is one guy who machined some blocks, glued them in and bolted the tracks to them.
http://bwca.com/index.cfm?fuseaction...ID=15&confID=1
http://photos.bwca.com/w/WHENDRIX-010517-145933.JPG
http://bwca.com/index.cfm?fuseaction...ID=15&confID=1
http://photos.bwca.com/w/WHENDRIX-010517-145933.JPG
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If you don't mind keeping your feet to the side all the time. I move mine to center and to sides, whatever your preference. Those would give room to slide equipment fore and aft though without the bar all the way across.
Yup. This is closer to what I've grown to expect in other boats. And maybe I can dremel out the old Wenonah setup.
Here is the ultimate project, just in case you have access to a machine shop.
http://bwca.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=forum.thread&threadId=657861&forumID=15&confID=1
http://bwca.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=forum.thread&threadId=657861&forumID=15&confID=1
G
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How about some photos of the seat and foot brace attachments. There are some cunning folks on CT and someone may have resolved similar issues before without radical surgery.
You could, as you suggest, Dremel out the glassed in blocks, but don’t be surprised if they are also epoxied to the hull on the underside or edges, which will then require some surgery and sanding to get flush and smooth. Delicate surgery; the kevlar sides of that hull are not very thick.
I am not a fan of Harmony Keepers; the plastic is too bendy if installed on much of a hull curve, they seem to jam more easily with sand or debris than other foot pedal or bar arrangements, and pedal failures are not unknown.
For foot pedals I prefer Werner/Yakima/now Mohawk pedals. Those are heavy; thick plastic rail with aluminum slider & pedals, but they are bombproof.
And I much prefer the Wenonah adjustable slider foot bar over pedals, at least in a boat with a raised seat. Preferred mostly for the ease of incremental length adjustment. The difference between barefoot and booted necessitates some minor adjustment for me to feel properly and comfortably locked in a seated position. As a “Who knows who the paddler of the day might be” that’s the foot brace (bar) I would install, so that the bar could be quickly and easily length adjusted to accommodate different paddlers.
There might be a way to utilize a Wenonah foot brace by glassing in another set of blocks with the new foot brace rails spanning a set of blocks on either side.
About the seat height, it is amazing what lowering a seat even one inch can do for primary stability.
Great description.
Why not just drill new holes in the wood blocks and move the brace? Not very handy for on the water adjustments but it will take care of the immediate problem.
If installing new can you leave the current blocks in place and screw the new foot brace to them? I personally prefer the solid bar rather than kayak style foot pegs. Many more options for foot placement and comfort depending on how I paddle.
Alan
If installing new can you leave the current blocks in place and screw the new foot brace to them? I personally prefer the solid bar rather than kayak style foot pegs. Many more options for foot placement and comfort depending on how I paddle.
Alan
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Yeah - but telling the wife to "hit the gym" is probably a good way to throw cold water on the whole idea....and others too.
I used a set of old style Wenonah foot brace rails and parts from aluminum crutches to make my foot braces on the Sojourn. It was practically free, lightweight, and works great. I mounted the rails by epoxying 1/4" minicell between the rails and the hull, to allow for curvature. Somebody here (YC?) gave me that idea, and it has held up just fine.
Magnus - isn't the seat in the Next removable? If so, I'd try kneeling in that. Having spent a bit of time in a Camper, I don't think you're going to get a good feel for how it will work in solo boats with that one. But it's a place to start. When you get done trying that in the camper, you should try standing in it with a pole.
Well, if you don't mind a fixed foot brace position, the easy thing to do would just be to drill some new pilot holes in the wood supports and reposition the brace. If you want adjustability, I would just remove the existing foot brace, leave the wood rails in place, and mount one of Wenonah's sliding foot brace kits. You might even find that the wood rails provide a convenient brace for your heels.
The wooden frame for the sliding seat looks home-made to me, although the aluminum frame looks like stock Wenonah. I would probably just try paddling the boat with the seat at the present height and see if you get used to it. If you find that you need it lower, it looks like the frame could be cut down a bit without too much trouble. You would have to remove the existing transverse cross braces and reposition them lower, possibly fashioning some new dowel joints for them, but that would seem to be much easier than removing the whole frame and replacing it with something else.
The wooden frame for the sliding seat looks home-made to me, although the aluminum frame looks like stock Wenonah. I would probably just try paddling the boat with the seat at the present height and see if you get used to it. If you find that you need it lower, it looks like the frame could be cut down a bit without too much trouble. You would have to remove the existing transverse cross braces and reposition them lower, possibly fashioning some new dowel joints for them, but that would seem to be much easier than removing the whole frame and replacing it with something else.
I've had a couple old Wenonah's with that style of foot brace and a similar setup on the seat. (not similar to the seat on yours but similar blocks to your foot brace) On one I just repositioned the foot brace to where I wanted it and on the other I removed the blocks and put in my own brace. I've removed those blocks on a couple different boats. They're glued and 'glassed to the hull. Don't expect them to just pop off. I'd use a reciprocating saw to cut through the glass and partially through the wood near the hull before whacking them with a hammer.
Alan
Alan
G
Guest
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That is not at all the foot brace installation I was expecting to see. I was thinking it would be a hull-spanning foot bar with the blocks installed on the sides of the hull, like a predecessor to Wenonah’s early multi-hole L-angle aluminum & wing nut crudity. Those things were a PITA to adjust, especially when the wing nuts got crusty.
I still think that for a “Who- knows-which-paddler” canoe some easily adjustably foot brace bar or pedals are the way to go.
The Wenonah adjustable foot brace is as easy as four pop rivets to install, and as Pete suggests you could just remove the bar from the existing brace and leave the blocks in place for the time being.
https://www.wenonah.com/Items.aspx?id=29
One nice thing about those Wenonah adjustable sliders is that the twist knob tighteners will slip forward under undue pressure long before you tear out a pop rivet. As a worrywart I’d still lay some 2 inch glass tape and epoxy resin reinforcement under the tracks along the thin kevlar sidewalls before pop riveting that foot brace in place, but that is probably unnecessary.
There may be some way to use that Wenonah adjustable foot brace on the floor mounted blocks, but everything I can envision involves some tricky adaptation, right angle bends on a shortened foot bar and other complications.
Much as I’d rather have a traverse foot brace bar in an open canoe using a set of adjustable foot pegs in conjunction with those glassed in blocks would be super easy to install; as simple as removing the existing bar and attaching the pedal rails high up on the outside edge existing blocks.
Ideally on a foot pedal you are pressing with the ball of your feet just below the toes. Not tippy toes, not arches. How tall are those blocks (and how big are you and yours feet?)
And how long are those blocks? I’d want the pedal tracks to be slightly shorter than the blocks, both for ease of installation and so there wasn’t a protruding track end to scrape my ankles against.
Harmony Keepers use 15 inch long tracks. The Harmony SlideLock foot brace is by far the easiest to adjust. The paddler can do so on the fly while seated (which is really handy for a boat that sees different sized paddlers), but those use an absurdly long 19 inch track.
http://www.harmonygear.com/products/...Brace-Kit.html
Mohawk’s bomb proof foot pedal rails are available in 10, 13 or 15 inch lengths.
https://www.mohawkcanoes.com/collect...oot-brace-kits
The benefits of trying some adjustable pedal arrangement on the sides of the existing blocks: no block removal necessary, sheer simplicity of installation, no drilling holes in the side of the hull and, if you later find a better solution, ease of removal and reuse in another boat.
Lowering the seat while preserving the slider component looks trickier. It doesn’t look to be positioned absurdly high, and I’d just leave it be until you have a new foot brace (and other enhancements) finagled.
In that “gradually faded” case I’d definitely leave lowering the seat for last, if necessary at all. Especially if the Advantage might see use as a smaller statured, less mass above the gunwales wife or kid canoe.
At the least you could reattach that foot bar at your guess-timated preferred position forward and see how that feels. Better than a guess-timate, sit in the canoe in the shallows, seat slider to neutral or slightly bow light, and have someone Sharpie or tape mark what feels like the your most comfortable foot brace position.
I’d leave altering the seat height be until you have more time in the boat, and other simple stability enhancements installed.
Other simple outfitting tweaks can help a lot with feeling locked in place stable in the canoe. Some minicel padding on the inside hull edges, so you can comfortably brace your knees against the sides of the canoe, add two more points of locked-in comfort. With a 22.5 inch gunwale width it won’t take much thickness of minicel to provide the right knee spread comfort.
Knee bumpers are as simple as some minicel foam and contact cement application.
https://www.google.com/search?q=mini...DqQTozVMOqYT7M:
That is actually a photo of the outfitting on friend Willie’s kevlar Wilderness. Outfitting write up here, knee bumpers beginning around post 20
http://www.canoetripping.net/forums/...t-kevlar-canoe
A bucket seat helps more than a flat bench at holding your body in place when pushing against a foot brace, but a back band helps even more, especially if your sacroiliac is suspect. Between butt on the seat, footsies on a brace (or pedals), knees pressing against minicel side cushions and a back band you have six points of contact.
Actually if you add your heels atop a grippy minicel cushion, eight points of contact. You can’t lock in place more surely without using thigh straps.
Chosen Valley Canoe Accessories made an adjustable height back band that attached to sliding bucket seats. I just happen to know someone willing to part with theirs.
I have all the installation hardware, including an adapter kit Doug received from Chosen Valley to use that backband on wood bench seats, and I expect Doug or I could dig up the installation instructions. Actually I’m sure CVCA would be happy to send them to you; they did for both Doug and I.
I’d be pleased to put that bucket seat back band in the mail if you’ll use it on the Vintage Advantage. That would make the ghost of Jsaults happy.
That is a classic boat, with some interesting old school outfitting. Fix it up as a comfort cruiser and it should be good for another 30 years.
BTW, what year is that Advantage?
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Mike, enormous value in the last post. I want to come back to this when I'm not skimming the forum from my day job. There's a lot here to unpack. Thank you.
There's a lot here to unpack. Thank you.The tractor seat itself, and the aluminum frame that the seat slides on looks identical to that on my Advantage. I think you would find that the aluminum frame simply mounts onto the wood frame with 4 long screws. The stock Wenonah sliding seat mounts onto an aluminum frame in basically the same way.
Just out of curiosity, how high is your seat? If I measure vertically up from the hull bottom to the center of the longitudinal aluminum tubes that the seat slides on (that are covered with the plastic white caps) I get right around 4 7/8" at both the front and back of the frame. If your seat is mounted much higher than that, I can see how it could give you some instability issues.
Just out of curiosity, how high is your seat? If I measure vertically up from the hull bottom to the center of the longitudinal aluminum tubes that the seat slides on (that are covered with the plastic white caps) I get right around 4 7/8" at both the front and back of the frame. If your seat is mounted much higher than that, I can see how it could give you some instability issues.
A little late to the party... I have a 1982 Wenonah OC-1, 16', which they renamed the C1W the next year and added 6", with the same design. I'm still paddling it and I still love it. I also had an ultralight Advantage in fiberglass with the thin wood inwhales (no outwales--poor man's racing outfit). The OC-1 had the fixed footbraces you show when I bought it new. I ignored them and put in an early model Wenonah adjustable footbrace, pop-riveted to the hull. After 35 years of use, it still works and hasn't cracked--it is the fiberglass (pre-TufWeave, I think) layup with the center rib stiffening. I have a new Voyager with the current Wenonah sliding footbrace. It's a different design from what I have in the OC-1, and I think it's designed to glass in rather than rivet (factory is attached to the ribs). It will be much lighter than the other designs mentioned. They do slip a bit, as mentioned in another post. With the existing wood track, you can stabilized your feet nicely--heels against the the wood, balls against the adjustable rest.
I used the Advantage as a day paddler, and thoroughly enjoyed it. Even in glass, it was sub-35 pounds. It is quite a bit more stable than the current Voyager (which is also less stable than my OC-1). It's a fun boat, and I wouldn't hesitate to take it tripping in mild conditions. Without the outwale, you'll get a lot of slopover in waves.
I used the Advantage as a day paddler, and thoroughly enjoyed it. Even in glass, it was sub-35 pounds. It is quite a bit more stable than the current Voyager (which is also less stable than my OC-1). It's a fun boat, and I wouldn't hesitate to take it tripping in mild conditions. Without the outwale, you'll get a lot of slopover in waves.
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