Various Canoe Related Stuff

[PeteStaehling]

The better half finally decided to go out for a paddle on the local lake and it was a success. Yeah! We had a nice pleasant paddle around the lake and among the cypress trees. She has some difficulty getting in and out of the bow seat of the Wenonah Escapade, but with a good landing area it is manageable. The boat feels pretty twitchy with us on board. I figure that will settle down after she is in the boat more. I know that it was a bit twitchy for me getting used to the boat especially sitting up in seats since I always used a low pedestal and kneeled in my previous paddling "career", but that twitchiness quickly disappeared for me solo. She wished she could kneel, but she is no longer able to comfortably do so due to orthopedic issues.

We are in the preplanning stages of what will hopefully be post pandemic travelling. In order to entice her along that means a little popup camper or maybe a tiny travel trailer like maybe 13' Scamp. a small teardrop, or maybe a Scotty. She is willing to travel with what is considered minimal or even primitive by the RV world, but not quite up to something like I'd do living out of my Scion XB or the bags on my bicycle. We used to have a little popup and enjoyed it so she knows what she is getting in to.

I am initially thinking of keeping the load minimal so I can use a small 4 cylinder vehicle (maybe my Scion) and would want to be able to have some kind of versatile boat(s) that we could explore and fish out of. Priorities would be light weight, cartop-ability, stability and ease of entry/exit for her. We would want to be able to fish out of them comfortably and they should be useful in a wide variety of uses and locales. They should also be a fairly quick build.

It occurred to me that a pair of single decked canoes might be a good solution. Stitch and glue ones go together pretty fast and I could build one for her to try. If it was a fail for her, I'd use it for paddling with my senior dog who would ride better in the somewhat more confined space of decked canoe cockpit. If she liked it, I'd probably build a second one for me to use with her. It might also be fun to tinker with a sail rig at some point.

I am wondering how well something like the Fox Decked Canoe or possibly the CLC Mill Creek 13 would fill that bill. My wife has some issues with her hands that I think might make solo single blade paddling, but I think she might like double bladed canoeing.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Your vehicle is too small for safe towing. Actually the most important number is the payload of the car. This includes hitch weight. Even the Scamp comes in at 100 lbs and it will be more with bedding and propane and a battery. Say 250 lbs. Leaving you x to put in or on the car
Most roofs are not rated to carry more than 100 lbs. Some way less and I don't know your roof rating
The Scamp comes in at 1800 lbs. I find some tow ratings for the Scion at 1000 lbs and there is a Scion forum that says eh dont do it with more than a canoe trailer.

Pulling may cause engine strain but way more important is braking

We tow a travel trailer that dry is 2500 lbs. Loaded its more like 3200 lbs ; more if the fresh water tank is full. We use a midsize truck. Again braking is essential. We had someone back up in the left lane on 1-10 and thank god our truck brakes were able to handle the load. We do have electric trailer brakes and a brake controller but to have a heavy tail is something to consider.

 

[Guest]

It occurred to me that a pair of single decked canoes might be a good solution. Stitch and glue ones go together pretty fast and I could build one for her to try. If it was a fail for her, I'd use it for paddling with my senior dog who would ride better in the somewhat more confined space of decked canoe cockpit. If she liked it, I'd probably build a second one for me to use with her. It might also be fun to tinker with a sail rig at some point.

I am wondering how well something like the Fox Decked Canoe or possibly the CLC Mill Creek 13 would fill that bill. My wife has some issues with her hands that I think might make solo single blade paddling, but I think she might like double bladed canoeing.

I am a proponent of decked canoes, even little ones, and of double-blade paddles to resolve physiologic issues. But . . . . .

She has some difficulty getting in and out of the bow seat of the Wenonah Escapade, but with a good landing area it is manageable.

I do not know what issues she has getting in and out of the bow seat in the Escapade. I can get into most canoes, but getting out with a low mounted or floor mounted seat is at times comically difficult.

I (briefly) owned the world’s most difficult boat to exit, the Mad River Synergy, not the same-name WW canoe but the later model canoe SOT. Very deep/high sided poly SOT. Fun boat, easy to paddle, very comfortable, and dang near impossible to exit. The high sides precluded getting both legs over one side to dump out and the width eliminated straddling the hull.

The biggest issue was that there was no place along the sides to grasp the (wide, slick, plastic) “gunwales” to help lever your body upright. It was impossible to get your feet anywhere close to near or under your body, and even getting to a kneeling position and exiting from there was similarly challenging.

I gave the Synergy to a friend down south, figuring they could just dump/swim exit, but later saw someone’s easy solution; a length of webbing anchored up from with a toggle handhold, which the paddler could use to pull themselves upright.

 

[PeteStaehling]

Your vehicle is too small for safe towing. Actually the most important number is the payload of the car. This includes hitch weight. Even the Scamp comes in at 100 lbs and it will be more with bedding and propane and a battery. Say 250 lbs. Leaving you x to put in or on the car
Most roofs are not rated to carry more than 100 lbs. Some way less and I don't know your roof rating
The Scamp comes in at 1800 lbs. I find some tow ratings for the Scion at 1000 lbs and there is a Scion forum that says eh dont do it with more than a canoe trailer.

Pulling may cause engine strain but way more important is braking

We tow a travel trailer that dry is 2500 lbs. Loaded its more like 3200 lbs ; more if the fresh water tank is full. We use a midsize truck. Again braking is essential. We had someone back up in the left lane on 1-10 and thank god our truck brakes were able to handle the load. We do have electric trailer brakes and a brake controller but to have a heavy tail is something to consider.

My vehicle and trailer choices are VERY preliminary at this point.

I am not the very concerned with pulling a very lightly loaded 13' Scamp engine wise. There are reports of transmission issues with the automatic transmission, but mine is manual. I see the Scamp 13' listed at Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (lbs) 1,200 – 1,500. I have probably hauled close to that in my Scion in passengers, gear, and baggage in the mountains. I also did at least one run from Maryland to Florida pretty heavily loaded when moving. Besides if I kill it, it is old enough to be somewhat expendable. On nice thing about driving old vehicles if they croak you can hand someone the title and buy another one and keep going. If a nice new vehicle breaks down you are stuck until it is fixed.

That said, as you say braking may be the bigger concern and may be a good reason to upgrade.

BTW, my understanding is that the drivetrain and presumably brakes are the same as the Corolla which typically has more optimistic estimates of it's towing capability.

I tend to look at the camper like I looked at my little popup (the smallest one Coachman sold at the time) or my VW camper. I didn't see them as needing a kitchen or a bathroom. They didn't have or need AC or running water or even propane really. What was required was mostly a place to sleep, but the dinette was a big perk. We really enjoyed the dinette or else I'd go to a tiny teardrop that is all bed and you crawl in (the ones I mean typically have an outside "kitchen" in the back, but not much else). The dinette was great for passing rainy days playing cards or nibbling cheese and sipping wine.

While the Scamp may make a vehicle upgrade advisable or even necessary, I think there are probably options that are not out of the question for the Scion The Rockwood Coachman Clipper Express 9.0 weighs something like 565# empty and dry if I remember correctly. It is kind of like a teardrop but the back end pops up and there is a door in the back. There isn't really a dinette though, but it looks like you could sit on the side of the bed and use the counters as tables or rig up a little swing out table for playing cards. It actually has more features than I want. My wife wants chemical potty just for at night and there is space for one to stow under the bed.

We packed very little clothing , gear, food or water and just resupply almost daily when we used our vw or our old pop up. When alone I sometimes have traveled with just my ultralight backpacking stuff even for coast to coast trips. So packing light comes pretty natural to me.

I have no idea what the roof is rated at, but I have certainly far exceeded what two stich and glue decked canoes weigh probably by a factor of 2X. Again it is an old vehicle and if I beat it to death so be it. I doubt that carrying two canoes is a safety issue.

 

[yellowcanoe]

As this is a canoe forum and not a towing forum, I suggest you do a LOT of research. We have been towing since 2016 with canoes across the country north to south Maine to FL five times and also to Arizona once and Alaska once.. We have some 100,000 miles on our 20 foot trailer. Our tow vehicle is rated to 5000 lbs not because it has a less powerful engine but because of its construction and transmission. Other vehicles same class have greater towing capacity. We have found that 70 percent of max tow gives us reserve to accelerate for safety when needed.

The most important factor for towing is control. Even with a small trailer ( aside from a canoe trailer) a sway bar is necessary ( it adds weight) and you need to make sure that your weight of the load is such that your back end of the tow vehicle doesn't sink too much ( which indicates loss of steering control as there is less on the front wheels)
Here is a little video
https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...=d0e43847ed2e28a6f9039f3ae4f0c728&action=view

 

[Alan Gage]

I towed a single place canoe trailer about 1500 miles with my little 1.8L Corolla (5 spd) and it did great with pretty good mileage. The trailer+canoe weighs about 400 pounds. I also have a small utility trailer with fold down ramp (think lawnmower trailer). I've used this a few times with the Corolla to pick up pieces of equipment rather than taking my big truck. These were probably pushing 1000 pounds total.

It really struggles with the utility trailer but I think much of that is due to wind resistance from the fold up/down ramp (expanded metal). It doesn't seem to pull that trailer any differently empty than it does loaded with an extra 400 pounds of equipment. Any head wind makes is substantially worse and I often find myself in 4th gear at nearly WOT just to hold 50-55mph and mileage drops from 40+ when empty to about 20.

I guess what I'm saying is that you can be safely within the weight ratings and still run into problems from wind resistance depending on the size and shape of what you're pulling.

Alan

 

[PeteStaehling]

I really was hoping for more comments on decked solo canoes and their suitability for the usage I suggested.

I really didn't want to get into a towing discussion. I figured I'd get more serious about that when I got closer to deciding what kind of trailer I was going with. That said, since we already opened that can of worms... I feel fairly comfortable about hauling 1000# of trailer and gear with my Scion. It looks like the Scamps were about 950# empty and dry for the basic model without any extra options. That was back in the 70s and they have added stuff since then and the lightest is now probably 1200#., making the Scion a no go. If they would build be a stripped down one with no stove, heat, sink, refrigerator, water or waste tanks, but with a dinette in the front, it might be getting close to possible. The original owner passed the business to their son who apparently has the plan of adding more and more features, so I am betting the weight will only be going up if anything.

I still just might consider it if I ran across an older model that needed some refurbishing any way. In that case I might strip out a lot of the stuff and have my stripped down version. I don't think it is likely to find one with a front dinette which is what I'd really like so the rear bed could stay a bed most of the time. Not sure if it could hit the target weight or not though. If it didn't or if it did and I found the Scion not up to the task after trying it, upgrading tow vehicles would still be an option.

Camping trailers these days in general mostly have way more features than I am interested in. It seems hard to find anything like what I remember using back in the day. The Coachman that I had was 13' and only expanded out on one end rather than the usual two. Even it had more features that really necessary IMO, but it was small and pretty light. Not sure what it weighed, but we towed it with a variety of smallish vehicles with no issues. Not sure if it would exceed my limit for the Scion if care was taken in keeping the load down, but I am sure it could exceed it with less care.

The vehicle that I miss is my old 1969 VW Campmobile Special. It was a home away from home until it was rusting apart faster than I could keep up with fixing it. It had no frills feature wise, but what was there worked well and everything was from quality materials (real wood, nice upholstery, etc.). I was happy to see they are making a camper again, but disappointed when I saw two things, the price and the fact they were not selling them in the US. Actually it is probably good they are not selling them in the US or my wife would be nagging me to spring for the $70k+ (my 1969 one was free, but I had to replace the engine).

 

[Guest]

I really was hoping for more comments on decked solo canoes and their suitability for the usage I suggested.

Pete, trailer towing aside (my family towed a early model – read heavy – Nimrod pop-up camper behind our mid-60’s VW bug, with two adults and two kids in the vehicle, gear under the front hood and in the hide-away. It’s not like you will be traversing a lot of mountain ranges in cross-Florida travels) I think decked solo canoes are very suitable for the use you suggest. Wind shedding decked, the stability comfort of a low seat, perfect for double blading.

Again, my sole concern, if your wife has difficulty on entry/exit from your Escapade, I can’t imagine getting out of a low seat decked canoe will be easier.

I understand you can build one for her and if it doesn’t work as planned keep it for you and the senior dog, but a simple low-seat exit test first might be revealing. Maybe find someone with a similar sized rec kayak; if she struggles to exit that low seat a CLC Mill Creek or Fox may not be the solution for her solo canoe.

That is coming from someone who is smitten with decked canoes, but also from someone whose aged knees are shot, and appreciates a raised seat so I can get my feet under my bulk to exit the boat without comical effect.

 

[PeteStaehling]

Again, my sole concern, if your wife has difficulty on entry/exit from your Escapade, I can’t imagine getting out of a low seat decked canoe will be easier.

I understand you can build one for her and if it doesn’t work as planned keep it for you and the senior dog, but a simple low-seat exit test first might be revealing. Maybe find someone with a similar sized rec kayak; if she struggles to exit that low seat a CLC Mill Creek or Fox may not be the solution for her solo canoe.

That is coming from someone who is smitten with decked canoes, but also from someone whose aged knees are shot, and appreciates a raised seat so I can get my feet under my bulk to exit the boat without comical effect.

Maybe we can mock up something to see how good/bad it is for her. The seat will be lower in something like the Fox or Mill Creek which will make it harder, but watching her in the Escapade it seemed like part of her trouble was the lack of room given how small and narrow the area she had to stand was.

BTW, I suppose the seats could be located differently in the Escapade. I hate drilling more holes in the hull while it is still like new. Maybe, it would be possible to use the same holes and move the rails back. I'll have to look I'd be more inclined to move seats if they were hung from the gunnels. As far as weight distribution it probably wouldn't hurt for her to be a little further back any way. If not both seats could be moved a little toward midships. It could even be slid back just for entry/exit and slid forward while under way.

If her knees allowed kneeling I'd put in a little pedestal and I think she'd be happy.

EDIT:
I talked to her a little and she agreed that space was as much of an issue as height of the seat in the Escapade. I went to look over possibilities for moving it a little and realized that there was a squeeze spring clip that was used to keep the seat from sliding back It kept the sat a full inch or a little more forward than fully back. I took the rails loose on one end, slid the seat off, put the squeeze clip in front of the seat and put the seat back in place. It now goes back just about as close to the thwart as you'd probably want to go, so going further would mean moving the thwart. She seemed to think it was enough to make a difference. She will trie it out soon and we will evaluate if other changes might help. Adding a strap or some handholds may be considered.

She was luke warm on the decked canoe idea so if the Escapade can be made comfortable for her we may stick with it for her outings. She'd be willing to test paddle a decked canoe but wasn't enthusiastic about the idea.

 

[ppine]

I bought a Ford diesel in 2002 to haul a camper and pull a horse trailer. It is the best vehicle I have ever had. It will pull heavy stuff and still gets good mileage. It is at 175 k miles and just getting broken in. My record mileage is 23.8 on the flats. It will haul more than 2 Subarus.