Upgrade and repair

[ErktheRed]

Hey everyone,

first off, I’m new to this and basically any online thread. I’m most likely going to ask questions that a lot of you have seen or responded to multiple times. But I’ve already seen and read a lot of information or just fun paddling posts.

Last summer I picked up a 17’ fiberglass Hoefgen canoe. Hand built in 1985 in Menominee, MI. I’m the 3rd owner and found out that it was stored inside for almost its entire life then donated to a camp I went to when I was a kid. It’s actually in really good shape.

So far, I’ve removed the seats and have cleaned them up, sanded them down, re varnished and added new flat webbing to them. The webbing may be swapped out for rope, I don’t like the old holes exposed between the webbing.

What I want to do:

call me crazy but I want to sand the paint off or down and repaint it a different color. I was thinking white or maybe a good deep blue. any suggestions about quality paint and a clear coat? More eco friendly the better, but I get that’s not likely. The yellow paint right now looks ok, and is in relatively good shape. It does however leave yellow streaks when I hit bottom or pull it onto shore. Trust me, I know better than to drag a boat besides up onto shore.

my other goal is to remove the aluminum gunwales and replace them with some ash or cherry wood. They’re riveted on currently, so I’m not sure if that’s going to be more headache than it should be. While doing this, replace the decks with wooden versions as well.

During this Stay at home order, I have time on my hands and figured this would be a good project to do. Between house projects.

so any suggestions, thoughts, input anybody is willing to discuss, I’m open. I appreciate it, highly. And I’m looking forward to all of the old and new discussions on here.

 

[ErktheRed]

I don’t have any good photos of the canoe without my dog or fiancé in them. Yet

 

[yellowcanoe]

Those recurved ends are nice. But that wrinkle isnt though I think it may be to deflect waves down I actually have had good luck with Rustoleum paint!

 

[BWCA66]

I know that yellow is one of the most expensive colors in gelcoating because it takes a large amount of tint to get the color and that may corelate to less eco friendly. Off white seems to hide the scratches the best.

 

[ErktheRed]

Yellowcanoe. Thank you for your input. The bubble like feature is most definitely to help with waves, although I haven’t had this particular boat in anything too choppy yet. And I’m not sure how their mold was, but when you look down the hull you can see some uneven-ness to it. Usually when I go on trips it’s with a lighter Kevlar boat. But man, does this thing paddle nicely. and thank you, I’ll dig into some rustoleum paint. Did you roll and tip? Or spray it on?


BWCA66. I think white would look good, so thanks! This yellow is pretty thick in spots, it’s definitely going to take me a minute to get through it all.

 

[goonstroke]

...
call me crazy but I want to sand the paint off or down and repaint it a different color. I was thinking white or maybe a good deep blue. any suggestions about quality paint and a clear coat? More eco friendly the better, but I get that’s not likely. The yellow paint right now looks ok, and is in relatively good shape. It does however leave yellow streaks when I hit bottom or pull it onto shore. Trust me, I know better than to drag a boat besides up onto shore.

my other goal is to remove the aluminum gunwales and replace them with some ash or cherry wood. They’re riveted on currently, so I’m not sure if that’s going to be more headache than it should be. While doing this, replace the decks with wooden versions as well.
...

Not crazy, but are you sure you want to repaint it? Even with a high end marine paint the new finish won't be as durable as the yellow gelcoat you have there now. I'd say eat a banana split and learn to love it. As they say in eco architecture, the greenest building is the one that's already constructed.

If you haven't worked with aluminum rivets before, they're surprisingly easy. A regular drill bit of the correct size (usually 3/16", but some 5/32") will follow the stem hole in the middle of the rivet and if you're reasonably attentive you'll feel the hold release and know when to stop drilling. As with the gelcoat, I'd considering sticking with the original equipment. Wood gunwhales will add a few pounds to the boat.

The boat looks good, and so does the dog, the paddle, the fiance, and even the bag of Doritoes. Life is good, go paddle.

 

[Guest]

I’m 100% with Goonstroke on both counts.

Yellow is not my favorite color for a canoe, looks better on, egads, that which shall not be named, a kayak. But scratches are inevitable, and if you paint the canoe blue every scratch will be a vibrant yellow streak on a blue hull.

If you absolutely can’t stand the yellow maybe tape off a scuff line a ways down from the gunwales, leave the bottom yellow and paint the upper part blue. That way at least the bottom scratches will be yellow on yellow.

Running painters tape and paper against the hull edge would be easier than masking the aluminum gunwales, although if you do take the gunwales off first . . . . .

Out of curiosity what is the underlying color of the current scratches, yellow or some other color? It is possible that the canoe was already painted once, including perhaps yellow over yellow.

About replacing the aluminum gunwales with wood, as Goonstroke said, drilling out the pop rivets isn’t that hard, the rivet head will spin off on the drill, although you may need to tap the rivet shanks back through the aluminum channel to free the gunwales.

But once you have the aluminum gunwales off you now have 35 or 40 pop rivet holes just below the sheerline. Trying to exactly hit each of those holes as you drill/screw in new wood gunwales is dang near impossible.

There are ways to get things really close, but if anything shifts even a faction of an inch instead of having neatly spaced holes O O O O O you may end up with
O O OO O O. Holes that overlap each are even worse.

I, and other folks who have regunwaled old canoes, have found boats that had already been regunwaled once before, with a swiss cheese sheerline, 70 some holes on each side, OO OOO OO OO OO. That is less likely with aluminum gunwales, but still possible.

Knowing my inability to hit the old holes precisely I have epoxied a length of 2” fiberglass tape (not “tape” in the adhesive sense, just a 2” roll of glass tape with seamed edges) along the suspect swiss cheese sheerline before drilling new holes spaced between the old holes.

If you do not have indoor storage, or at least under cover storage, aluminum gunwales would be a lot easier to maintain.

 

[Guest]

I’ll dig into some rustoleum paint. Did you roll and tip? Or spray it on?

I don’t want to overlook the painting questions. Rustoleum is fine. An epoxy paint like EZ-Poxy is (a little) better, but at three times the cost.

I would scrub the hull clean with a Scotch-brite pad so the surface is scuffed a bit, tape the gunwales or scuff line, and use a short foam “cigar” roller and narrow pan. Roll out half the hull at a time, from the keel line down to the gunwales or scuff line. Then immediately tip out the rolled paint with a foam brush, and roll/tip the other side.

Since a quart of paint will cover the hull at least twice, maybe three times, it’s worth wet sanding the first coat of paint after it dries and recoating.

More canoe painting info here

http://www.canoetripping.net/forums...ssions/diy/80884-pettit-ez-poxy-topside-paint

and here

http://www.canoetripping.net/forums.../diy/106088-paint-for-royalex-canoe-what-type

This yellow is pretty thick in spots, it’s definitely going to take me a minute to get through it all.

Not sure what you mean by that. If the “pretty thick” is yellow gel coat I absolutely would not sand it all off.

FWIW, some info Hoefgen canoe info, taken from mid-90’s Hoefgen catalogs:

Hoefgen started building canoes in 1969. In the mid-90’s catalogs all of their canoe models (16’ Scout, 17’ Sport and 18’ Cargo) were “Classic Chippewa” designs with recurved stems. All models had that bow flare and were constructed with fiberglass cloth and roving, with Airex ribs. All were gel coated, and yellow was one of eight color choices.

The 17’ Sport was catalog speced at max width 34”, 12 ½” deep at center, 20” bow and stern. Listed weight for the Sport was 65lbs, capacity 800lbs. The Sport cost $625 in the mid-90’s.

I love vintage canoe catalogs.

 

[ErktheRed]

Here’s the problem, I already eat a lot of ice cream and I’ve been making radical decisions because it. But I’ll see how I feel after a banana split.

The boat already weighs in at a whopping 75-80 lbs, so any added weight will absolutely make portaging and handling it worse. I get that and more weight is probably the last thing that I want to do. With the exception of a little extra here and there. I’ll do my best to get a close up of the paint chipped in the stern to show the thickness. It’s Thick! The company mentioned back them they layered the paint on in those high wear or impact areas extra thick to endure contact. Makes sense!

So I guess that’s where my roadblock came into play, and the input from you all. Is it worth it to sand that down and paint less layers there. Maybe apply a kick plate. A Deep midnight blue with gelcoat over to hide yellow. And hopefully stay yellow free as I’d hate to get any sports references, not a football fan here... That always comes with awkward looks and comments. (Yay sports!) Would I be at the same weight range after the epoxy, Kevlar, and gelcoat?

Or, do as most are saying and keep it yellow and forget I even had these thoughts? I dislike the yellow but it’s tolerable.

As for the gunwales, I’m pretty handy and crafty with wood, I feel confident to keep wooden strips in good condition. Aluminum is lighter and less maintenance, who wouldn’t like the sounds of that?! And i have space under a lean to as well as a durable “sock” to keep it in.


Ok! How about this then.. if I keep it as is, what do you all use to keep your boat in good shape? I’m used to 303, but someone once told me not to use it on this canoe. Confused me as I’ve used it on glass kayaks for many years. Anything in particular?

 

[ErktheRed]

I don’t how to tag or direct a message to any of you, so hopefully you’ll see some notifications.

Mike Mcrea. Thank you for that information and looking that up. I love old canoe and camp history/catalogs too. Reminds me of being a kid and going through some really old campmor or Coleman stuff. And setting up a massive canvas tent with far too many poles thst all had to be marked A-A. B-B etc so it all matched. And the smell!

Hoefgen still makes these canoes but made to order. They don’t offer yellow anymore, said it was too expensive. The prices are now about $1200 and the weight is about 30lbs lighter. Somehow. Paul Hoefgen said lime is about 75 ish pounds. Wild!

ill look at those painting links now. Thank you!

 

[Robin]

I like the idea of removing those aluminum gunnels and replacing them with ash or cherry, and I would sand down that hull and go with a new color, I like dark blue but white is nice too. I just removed some aluminum gunnels from a Mohawk canoe, the rivits where pretty solid, not pop rivets but they came off with a good drill bit and electric drill.
Don't worry about the old rivet holes, the new ash gunnels will ad a lot of strength to that area of the canoe and it shouldn't be an issue from my experience.
I use a 1/4 sheet vibrator sander or a RO sander to remove old paint and smooth things out. I wouldn't worry about the bottom scratches showing the old color. If you don't like the yellow, just go with a color you like and touch up the bottom off season if it shows thru. I see lots of newer $3k kevlar boats with scratched up bottoms after a few trips.

You can splice ash gunnels from ash you buy and rip down (3/4" by 3/4") from a lumber yard or big box store, 10' lengths are good to make a 20' gunnel, makes it easy to bend the ends to fit the sherline with the extra lenght. Make a long 8-9 inch splice, I use Titebond III glue.

I use Interlux Brightside paint, 1 qt does a few coats on a canoe, maybe thin with 216 thinner and I use a quality 4" foam brush. Wholesale Marine sells this at about the best prices I have found. I have heard folks use Rustolem but never saw the finished product up close. Interlux gives a great finish for a few dollars more.

I have some video's that might help you.

https://youtu.be/XiLPb_uDBQI

https://youtu.be/2d7CJ5u5PUs

https://youtu.be/r-wcPPOWiIE

​

 

[BWCA66]

Merrimack used to offer yellow as a standard color but quit because of cost and weight. The more pigment the heavier the gelcoat. A 17' canoe is going to have 5+ pounds of gelcoat and a yellow one probably even more. Wear a good mask, actually a respirator, if you're going to sand it down.

 

[ppine]

Yellow shows up at sea better than any other color. I painted my sea kayak yellow with a varnished deck.
It shows up on rivers and if you capsize it is easy to see compared to say a green boat.
Painting a canoe is no big deal. I have done it at least 25 times. I usually buy used boats that need some work and then paint them. Rustoleum marine paint is good. Porch paint is good. Even latex house paint works surprisingly well. I run rivers so boats get scraped up. I usually paint them about once a year and before a big trip. Paint adds a small amount of weight.
Working on the seats, thwarts and gunwales is very rewarding.
I think your canoe has sponsons.

 

[Guest]

The boat already weighs in at a whopping 75-80 lbs, so any added weight will absolutely make portaging and handling it worse.

The reason I wrote that the catalog specs “listed” the weight at 65lbs is that I have never encountered a 17 foot glass and woven roving canoe that weighed as little as 65lbs. A lot of catalog speced weights are suspect.

I’ll do my best to get a close up of the paint chipped in the stern to show the thickness. It’s Thick! The company mentioned back them they layered the paint on in those high wear or impact areas extra thick to endure contact.

Is it worth it to sand that down and paint less layers there.

OK, gel coat is not paint. Gel coat is a thick resin applied in the mold. Gel coat will chip, and spider crack at points of impact, and that damage can be repaired. Please Google gel coat before you get busy with a sander.

A Deep midnight blue with gelcoat over to hide yellow. And hopefully stay yellow free as I’d hate to get any sports references

We are getting deep in the weeds here, but “a Deep midnight blue with gelcoat over” makes no sense unless you are taking about some clear coat over paint. The yellow color is in the gel coat.

You could (improbable, but realm of possibility) remove the existing yellow gel coat and re-apply new deep blue gel coat. That would be a really long, arduous and expensive undertaking. In my opinion not even worth contemplating.

Better to paint the canoe deep blue, and live with the inevitable scrapes and scratches showing yellow. Or tape off a “scuff” line near the waterline and just paint the upper part deep blue.

It is not unusual for composite canoes to be two-toned, usually with a white bottom that shows scratches less visibly. Like so:

https://swiftcanoe.com/boat/prospector-14/

 

[BWCA66]

I just painted the bottom of this 26 year old canoe over the gel coat.

 

[Guest]

I just painted the bottom of this 26 year old canoe over the gel coat.

Very nice. That two-tone look always appealed to me. I’ve done one canoe rebuild that way, and three of our decked canoes have colored decks over white bottoms.

And hopefully stay yellow free as I’d hate to get any sports references, not a football fan here... That always comes with awkward looks and comments. (Yay sports!)

Bottom scratches, in paint or colored gel coat or clear coat often show as white-ish, at least when the boat is dry.

If blue over yellow doesn’t appeal to your inner Chargers fan maybe blue over white bottom and slap some Colt’s stickers on it. Or blue over white with a red stripe if you are a Patriots fan. heck, go full USA and get a star stencil and can of white spray paint for finishing flourishes.

 

[Iskweo]

Not all rust paint is created equal. We had used Tremclad for years with good luck on canvas boats but went to a Home Hardware brand and it cracked horribly after one year. Apparently that paint was made for hard surfaces. Lesson learned. You should be ok if you want to use rust paint...its cheaper and you can afford to touch it up if need be. Maybe try a different finish like satin to tone down the yellow.

 

[Guest]

Not all rust paint is created equal. We had used Tremclad for years with good luck on canvas boats but went to a Home Hardware brand and it cracked horribly after one year.

Maybe try a different finish like satin to tone down the yellow.

I am not a fan of deck or porch paint. That stuff lays on thick, as designed/intended to cover cracks and splinters. Thick, and really heavy. I have seen folks use painted-on-thick deck paint to hide spider cracks on gel coated canoes, like used car lot sawdust-in-transmission-fluid trickery. I would walk away from any used canoe with deck paint.

Not a fan of spray paint for canoes, unless simply adding an accent stripe along the side between painters tape. Or adding rudimentary Forest Green spray paint “touch ups” on the largely unseen bottom of a green plastic hull. Or red spray paint psssstt on red plastic bottom scratches, etc. 20 seconds of psssstt psssstt and done. Who cares if it doesn’t quite match, it’ll be scratched off again soon enough.

Definitely not a fan of cheap Dollar Store spray paint. Just don’t.

A quart of plain old Rustoleum oil-based enamel provides pretty good bang-for-buck and is available everywhere in at least a dozen colors and shades. Under $10 a quart is hard to beat. I recommend the Gloss Sunburst Yellow. For kayaks and, of course, all yellow Hoefgen canoes ;-)

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rust-Ol...low-Interior-Exterior-Paint-7747502/100204212

I have not done enough abuse scraping and dragging with EZ-Poxy paint. Seems tougher than enamel on minor scrapes and sand/gravel bar shallows. EZ-poxy does come with recommendations from professional builders and repairers.

EZ-Poxy white turned out brighter, glossier & shinier Rustoleum enamel, which may not be a desired factor. It is blindingly white.

https://www.amazon.com/Pettit-EasyPoxy-Polyurethane-Topside-Paint/dp/B013XS261Q

EZ-Poxy also comes in a dozen+ colors. And costs 4X as much as a quart of Rustoleum enamel .

But painting work is 90% prep work, washing, sanding, taping & masking and more taping & masking. Actually rolling on and tipping out the paint takes very little time or effort. I always feel like “Dang, that’s it? I spend a whole day prepping the canoe and I’m done painting in 10 minutes?”

Congratulations to me , I have rolled out the first coat. After that coat dries back to doing 90% prep work (wet sand outside with hose nearby, dry, move inside, tape & mask, etc) and another 10% of time/effort actually rolling/tipping paint.

With days of effort, including multiple paint coats, cure times, wet sandings, tapings & maskings, Jeeze Louise, using a better quality paint may be worth the added expense.

I have not (yet) used Rustoleum Marine Topside paint, but when I get around to scrubbing-taping-masking-painting-wet sanding a couple of white bottomed boats this spring I’ll give that topside paint a shot.

https://www.amazon.com/Rust-Oleum-206999-Marine-Topside-1-Quart/dp/B000BZTJT2

Rustoleum Topside is not as ubiquitously every-hardware-store available as plain Rustoleum enamel, or I would buy it from my local independent. But we live in the shelter at home times of order-everything, and I just did. $16 a quart beats $44 for EZ-poxy, worth a shot.

Maybe, we’ll see; I have a quart of EZ-Poxy Hatteras Cream waiting in the wings, I’ll have to do a comparison.

 

[Alan Gage]

If I'm reading this right you want to sand off all the gel coat to reduce weight and then repaint it.

That's any easy question to answer. Don't do it! I don't even want to think about how much time, how many sanding pads, how many pounds of sanding dust you'll end up with, and how many years will be taken off the life of your lungs. And when you get done you're not going to have a perfectly smooth hull anymore. I'm not saying it's impossible but hardly anyone is going to be able to sand off that much material without the surface looking like a rustic hand hewn wood beam. It probably won't look that bad until you put your shiny new paint on it and then it will look terrible with dips and waves.

I'm a fan of Rustoleum on canoes because it's cheap and easy to find. I don't think there's any paint out there that isn't going to chip or scratch when you start pulling it over rocks so you might as well use something cheap and just scuff sand and repaint when you think it's getting too ugly. I was surprised once when I went to a larger hardware store and found Rustoleum was available in custom mixed colors so you've got options with it. Other paints dry faster and leave a nicer finish. But they cost more too. To some it's worth the extra cost. To others it's not.

Alan

 

[BWCA66]

Another thing to think about before you try and sand off all the gelcoat. The chemical reaction between the first layer of fiberglass and the gelcoat causes the the fiberglass to be infused with the pigment from the gelcoat, at least it did using vinyl ester resin in the hundred or so canoes I laid up. So you won't be able to get rid of all the yellow without getting into the fabric. Sand it smooth if you want and paint over it.