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tracking in bow seat vs center seat

For many years I paddled different tandems solo.

Sure, so did I and so do a lot of people still. Many prefer the size of a tandem for various reasons. But Turtle was talking about paddling one from the stern seat with artifical ballast in the bow for trim. Notwithstanding the sacred logo of this site, and the different things we all do in canoes from time to time, I don't think many people paddle solo in tandems from the stern seat. Nor is it advisable, for all of the nine reasons I detailed above.

Using a double blade helps.

As long as you're doing it from a centralized seat . . . .
 
I generally paddle by tandem backwards from the bow seat when I am solo (most of the time) and I STILL need to put water ballast up front if I'm out for a day trip without gear to even things out. A couple of large dry bags filled with water generally get the job done.
 
Early in our canoeing days, Kathleen and I had only one boat, a 16-foot Mad River Explorer RX. I would often paddle it solo in whitewater on day trips with our canoe club. I didn’t sit in either the stern or bow seat. I moved up to sit just behind the centre thwart. I wore knee pads, and sometimes, but not always, sat on a white bucket, or a dry bag with a change of clothes stuffed under the thwart. This was a more effective position for all the reasons Glenn listed in post #9. I would never have been able to control the opposite end of the boat as efficiently from either the stern or the bow. I was certainly much younger back in the late ‘80s, but I would still take the same approach today.
 
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No Glen, I prefer a solo and to paddle it from the center kneeling. What I meant is that IF carring a big load necessitating a big solo, outing the weight in the front and paddling from the stern seat works good. Without "ballast" it doesn't work.
 
In all my years of solo tripping in tandem boats I never needed to be more forward than the bow seat (facing the stern) in a loaded boat. In fact I think I would have been happier in the stern seat for most of it, if I ever tried it. That was flat water, all of my river trips were tandem.

I enjoy paddling empty tandem boats from the stern. Once you get used to the initial instability it is actually a pretty stable and it is very maneuverable. I'm pretty sure I can pivot my empty 18' OT Guide quicker and easier from the stern than from the center. I think this would be more true on a boat with a straight keel.

I don't think Glens father was wrong, there are lots of advantages to it. We have been so conditioned not to do it that most of us "informed" people never try it.
 
In all my years of solo tripping in tandem boats I never needed to be more forward than the bow seat (facing the stern) in a loaded boat. In fact I think I would have been happier in the stern seat for most of it, if I ever tried it. That was flat water, all of my river trips were tandem.

I enjoy paddling empty tandem boats from the stern. Once you get used to the initial instability it is actually a pretty stable and it is very maneuverable. I'm pretty sure I can pivot my empty 18' OT Guide quicker and easier from the stern than from the center. I think this would be more true on a boat with a straight keel.

I don't think Glens father was wrong, there are lots of advantages to it. We have been so conditioned not to do it that most of us "informed" people never try it.

I will likely not try it, ever. Too much wind in my area to get away with it. I could see doing it with a load on a lake, but not on any of the rivers I frequent.
 
I enjoy paddling empty tandem boats from the stern.

Canoeing is as much about aesthetics as function, so we should enjoy doing things in them. Personally, since I'm now more than my nine pound birth weight, I don't enjoy paddling solo in the stern seat of a long canoe with the bow sticking up in the air. Paddling solo in the bow seat, facing forward with the stern sticking up in the air, is a lot more challenging.

there are lots of advantages to it.

Name them.
 
Canoeing is as much about aesthetics as function, so we should enjoy doing things in them. Personally, since I'm now more than my nine pound birth weight, I don't enjoy paddling solo in the stern seat of a long canoe with the bow sticking up in the air. Paddling solo in the bow seat, facing forward with the stern sticking up in the air, is a lot more challenging.



Name them.

The biggest advantage is that you are seated close to the gunnels for more ergonomically comfortable paddling on both sides without moving.
Second biggest advantage is that there is less yaw, so less energy is spent on correction strokes or switching.
Third advantage is that it does the same thing as heeling a boat over, shortening boat length and getting you closer to the water. It is more affected by the wind but I find it easier to balance being in the middle (side to side) and having access with the paddle to both sides of the boat equally without moving or changing balance. I also find it more maneuverable than a heeled boat and it gets you closer to the water.
Another advantage I find which is related to yaw mentioned above is that it only takes a slight breeze on the off paddle side to keep you going straight without as much correction or switching. Also in a tail wind I sit even further back in the seat rasing the bow even more to catch more wind with the hull acting as a sail.
Another big advantage is how maneuverable the boat is with the bow out of the water, this may also help with royalex boats with blunt entries with skid plates on them.

It is not a position for beginners, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who doesn't have a good brace.
I also wouldn't recommend heeling a boat over to a beginner.
It's also not in the stern every time I go out, I started paddling this year in early March but didn't use the stern seat until about two weeks ago when I felt that an emersion wouldn't kill me. If the wind is up I also don't use it. I may also move back and forth from the stern seat to the rear thwart during a paddle depending on the wind.

I recommend any skilled paddler give it a try in the right conditions to see what they are missing.
 
LOL. I taught Canadian Style for years. Heeling can be taught to beginners. I have however watched and retrieved people formerly paddling from the stern seat in a way out of trim canoe. after they became wet.

The closer you are to the pivot point ( center of rotation ) of the canoe the more control you have.. Ask any canoe designer. Now we look at our site logo. It works if you are loaded with a century worth of animal or goods to balance the boat level while you sit aft.

Less yaw is not achieved by being in the way back. It is achieved by having the stroke as far forward in the boat as possible. Look at Marathon C-1 racers and how far forward they plant their stroke. If they got less yaw further back don't you think they would be there?
 
YC, I'm sure a proper lesson from you would put a newbie well ahead of a clueless newbie jumping in the stern seat w/o any instruction at all.

As far as yaw, I think the closer you paddle to the keel the less yaw you will get. When I reach forward with my stroke I get a better catch and more power from my paddle being more vertical for a longer time. In addition I never said paddling from the stern was faster, it's probably not.

In order to feel what I'm talking about you need to be open minded and get past long standing beliefs about the evils of the stern position and get over the fear and aversion for the "wheelie" and embrace it instead.
 
I've paddled in the stern of an empty tandem and thought it was fun. I don't recall having a problem going straight and they certainly are easy to spin around. This was on a local river under calm conditions. I still prefer being seated in the center of a dedicated solo but the stern of a tandem can surely be done and it can be fun.

I've also sat in the back of an empty tandem canoe and fought and lost to the wind too.

It would be interesting to measure the water line in those situations. If you have a 17' boat and 5' of it comes out of the water when you sit in the stern then you're really only paddling a 12' canoe (with a 5' wind sock sticking out up front). This means you're not quite as far in the stern as you thought you were and it gives you more control of the bow. It would also be a highly asymmetrical shape with the stern heavily buried and the bow barely skimming the water.

Alan
 
Thanks for chiming in Alan. So it was fun and you didn't die, glad to hear it.

I have also lost control in wind from the stern seat, I have lost control from the wind in the bow seat facing backwards too

Being in the center of a dedicated solo is a lot different than being in the center of a tandem at 3 feet wide.

The part of the hull that is out of the water does act like a windsock but I feel it also helps to balance you like the pole of a tightrope walker.


Glen, there have been rare occasions that I had to resort to the bow seat facing the bow in a strong wind in a wide canoe. It is challenging, but unlike paddling from the stern there is no joy in it.
 
Being in the center of a dedicated solo is a lot different than being in the center of a tandem at 3 feet wide.

Yes, it is. I think there might be some misunderstanding going on in this thread. As someone who has almost always had dedicated solo boats when I think "paddle from the center" my mind immediately assumes a solo boat that's 30" wide or narrower. So in that scenario why would I rather paddle a big tandem from the stern seat? But if the big tandem was my only option the stern seat on a calm day sounds pretty appealing and the center (which likely doesn't even have a seat) much less appealing. I don't think I've ever paddled from the bow seat backwards. My tandems have either had bucket seats or thwarts in the way. I did have a Bell Northstar with a kneeling thwart ahead of the stern seat for soloing purposes. Even then it was a lot to handle on a windy day with an empty boat and not much fun.

I have also lost control in wind from the stern seat, I have lost control from the wind in the bow seat facing backwards too

FWIW I've never lost control in a dedicated solo sitting in the center. ;)

Alan
 
I hope there is no misunderstanding, I have the highest respect for YC and Glens knowledge and experience and agree with everything they mentioned except for the old timers being wrong. If it worked for them(paddling rear of center), which it obviously did, it is a viable concept.

I am not advocating that people switch to paddling from the stern as a general rule, as it is more dangerous. I'm just saying that for skilled paddlers it is a comfortable and fun alternative when conditions are right, for those that solo tandems. I wish I hadn't waited over 40 years to try it.

Alan, I never really had a nice dedicated solo and I wonder if I were to spend some time in one if it would become my new favorite "thing"

I never lost control paddling a big tandem from the center but I ran into the problem of not getting enough forward momentum in a big wind, forcing me to move up to the bow(facing the bow) to get the forward progress I needed to get home. That was in my 18' OT Chippawaen, at an almost 40 beam.

"
 
Well, I have to take something back. I have tried the "wheelie" - but not sitting or kneeling. I do it standing all the time for attainment moves, or for...

https://vimeo.com/178066560

One thing I can say unequivocally is that lifting the bow out of the water slows you down. Attainment moves up ledges generally are capped by hopping forward to level the trim and speed away from the lip. Unweighting the bow is a common aid to controlling it in swift current, but the difference in speed when moving forward to center for even trim is unmistakable. I can't think of any reason to do that on my knees or on my seat.

I have one tandem with a center seat. I've never noticed any difficulty paddling from there that would be mitigated by moving back. Same for the Prospector with the kneeling thwart. I was, BTW, heeling that boat early on with nothing more than suggestions - no instruction - and have never even come close to falling out from there....even in a couple cases where I was scooping up the river briefly. Turning....easy, peasy. Fighting wind....an empty Prospector is a handful in the wind, no matter where you sit.

Yeah, I've stood in the bow of that red canoe with the wind in my face and current at my back. Do-able. Until you try to grab an eddy - then, not so much. As a poler, I've been pretty much all over from end to end in my tandems (not quite so bold in the Malecite). But when I'm paddling solo, I'm staying in the middle. And yes, I can do passable cross strokes from there...with my ottertail. But I can agree that with a heavy tripping load ahead to trim evenly, the stern's not a bad place to be, standing or not....on mostly flat water, with lots of room to turn and no eddies to deal with.
 
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I hope there is no misunderstanding, I have the highest respect for YC and Glens knowledge and experience and agree with everything they mentioned except for the old timers being wrong. If it worked for them(paddling rear of center), which it obviously did, it is a viable concept.

I hope I didn't make it sounds like I thought you were to blame for a misunderstanding, if there even is/was one. I was just watching the back and forth with both sides making good points but it just seemed like not everyone was on quite the same page.

As for how the old timers did it I don't quite know what my take is on that. Old timers did a lot of things right and a lot of things wrong and they did a good job making due with what they had. Just like us.

Alan
 
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We have to think about how old timers traveled. Often alone and supplying logging or mining camps the stern seat arrangement made quite a bit of sense. If they tried to sit in the middle they would give up room for large parcels. Trim wasn't an issue. Again lets look at Robins site drawing. Most of us however are not carrying a thousand pounds of supply stuff and we need some more control with lighter loads.

No offense at all; this is a discussion and not a contest. Did I miss something? I don't remember saying old timers were wrong but maybe I need glasses to read what I wrote.

PS I am so happy.. Just booked a campsite for June 4 and a canoe trip right after.
 
YC no need to get your glasses out, it was Glen who mentioned that his fathers generation had it wrong. Have fun on your trip, you are an inspiration to those of us that are getting older and hoping that we can continue tripping in the future.

Thanks for your input Steve. Funny that you mentioned the Malicite, I tripped in a Kevlar one for years, paddling from the bow seat. It was a boat that I thought would have been too unstable paddling empty from the stern. When I tried it out I thought that I might immediately flip over but was surprised that it felt as stable as my larger and heavier boats. It gave me a greater appreciation for that hull.

I've done a good deal of paddling while standing and I find that the sweet spot for me is between the stern seat and the rear thwart. I guess I have a preference for a bow light trim and favor turning over tracking. I also enjoy a "lively" feel.
 
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