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Thoughts on double bladed paddles from a somewhat experienced double blader.

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Idiot Savant

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Seems like interest in double bladed paddling is increasing.
That's good. I'm sold on it.
I first started experimenting with paddling my Wenonah Encounter, with a double blade, back in the mid 1990s.
I currently own two solo canoes that have been converted to pack style and I have over a dozed double bladed paddles. I also own a number of kayaks.

I'm still sorting things out. As soon as I think I've come to a final decision on something I go for a paddle and change my mind.
But, having said that, I think I can provide a useful opinion or two.
The downside of double blades is water runs off the blade, hits the drip ring and goes right onto your legs and into the canoe.
Yes, a long paddle prevents or diminishes this but, if you take that too far it's a case of the solution being worse than the problem.
Anything over 240 cm is getting too long, in my opinion. I like 230 for low angle and 220 for high angle and I'm over 6 feet.
I've found that I don't get as much water in the canoe as I used to. To be honest, I'm not sure why. Better technique? Faster stroke rate?
I think smaller blades and a faster stroke rate do help. I also think expensive paddles with a smooth back face to the blade, (no reinforcing spine) lift up less water.

For crying out loud, get yourself a decent paddle. Maybe I'm a snob, but if it has an aluminum shaft it's not good enough for me.
I think the Werner models with a carbon shaft and fiberglass blade offer a good balance between cost, weight, and toughness.
Don't let your ego determine blade size. Bigger isn't always better.

I've been experimenting with high angle and like it if the boat is narrow and the seat low, but most people are going to be happier with low angle.
That's my two cents.
 
I guessing you missed the thread a few months ago on DBs, this may get interesting .... again.

Anything over 240 cm is getting too long, in my opinion.
Click to expand...

I started using a DB with my Freedom Solo from Bear Mountain back in 2014, a custom 250 cm, low angle from Grey Owl paddles. This boat is a bit narrower than your Encounter, but I still found the shaft a bit short, for a low angle stroke.

Anything longer was a little more difficult to come by, so I worked out the details and started making my own versions ... 260 cm seemed about perfect, then I tried 270 cm and that worked even better. Last batch included a couple of 280 cm, unfortunately, I didn't make those for myself (will correct that with the next batch this fall, after this canoe project concludes).

The primary factors for the shaft length are the torso height of the paddler, seat height and the width of the canoe at the gunnels. Lower seat, wider canoe, shorter paddler all require a longer overall shaft length to pull off a low angle stroke effectively. Just like a single blade, you need to fit the paddle to the paddler and canoe. If you are getting wet with a low angle stroke, you are doing it wrong IMO, I don't even use drip rings on 260+ shafts anymore, there just isn't any need.

Something narrow like a Swift pack boat model can effectively use a high angle style with a shorter blade, simply because they are basically a topless Kayak ... however to do an effective low angle stroke they also need a longer shaft.

Personally, I think you may have literally sold yourself short on the DB lengths (for low angle), push out a bit and try the 260-270 cm range, you may be pleasantly surprised.
 
I built a Pygmy kayak from a kit and had a nice wood paddle left over after I sold it. The double bladed kayak paddle is very helpful in the wind and paddling solo. I could solo my OT Guide at 18 feet with few problems. Even with a keel in the wind on pushy rivers. I am a fan of it.

Once I did a week long trip on the Lower Colorado River. It is big and pushy in many places even with the dams. A kayak paddle came in very handy. I learned all kinds of strokes with it. My brother was in the bow but had an unjured arm. I only brought 2 paddles, but he was a trooper and paddled most of the time. I ended up using the kayak paddle for the whole trip.
 
I never tried a double blade until I got my OT NEXT, but after using it for 3 years, I wouldn't use anything else. I'm so pleased with it I'm starting to use a DB with my 15' tandem. I find it's much easier on my back and legs. I still carry a single blade for emergencies.
 
Cruiser said:
I guessing you missed the thread a few months ago on DBs, this may get interesting .... again.



I started using a DB with my Freedom Solo from Bear Mountain back in 2014, a custom 250 cm, low angle from Grey Owl paddles. This boat is a bit narrower than your Encounter, but I still found the shaft a bit short, for a low angle stroke.

Anything longer was a little more difficult to come by, so I worked out the details and started making my own versions ... 260 cm seemed about perfect, then I tried 270 cm and that worked even better. Last batch included a couple of 280 cm, unfortunately, I didn't make those for myself (will correct that with the next batch this fall, after this canoe project concludes).

The primary factors for the shaft length are the torso height of the paddler, seat height and the width of the canoe at the gunnels. Lower seat, wider canoe, shorter paddler all require a longer overall shaft length to pull off a low angle stroke effectively. Just like a single blade, you need to fit the paddle to the paddler and canoe. If you are getting wet with a low angle stroke, you are doing it wrong IMO, I don't even use drip rings on 260+ shafts anymore, there just isn't any need.

Something narrow like a Swift pack boat model can effectively use a high angle style with a shorter blade, simply because they are basically a topless Kayak ... however to do an effective low angle stroke they also need a longer shaft.

Personally, I think you may have literally sold yourself short on the DB lengths (for low angle), push out a bit and try the 260-270 cm range, you may be pleasantly surprised.
Click to expand...
I've tried longer paddles. I've tried everything. That's why I have over a dozen double bladed paddles. Bending Branches made a double blade, they called a canoe paddle, that was something like 260 cm. I gave it away.
My thinking is, get the length you would get if your boat was a kayak and you weren't worried about water in the boat. There is a reason you don't see kayakers with really long paddles. They are really inefficient and cumbersome. If you use Werner's sizing chart I think it's plenty generous. I hope you like your paddle, but I think you'd have been happier if you'd just gotten used to using a shorter paddle.
 
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No, I didn't miss the thread and I posted on it, but I wanted to get into it a little more.
I've been paddling solo canoes, with a double blade, for something like 30 years. How many can say that? And how many have over a dozen paddles to experiment with? Do I have all the answers? No. Would everyone that's tried as many paddles for as long as I have come to the same conclusions? No, but I think most would.
 
Idiot Savant said:
I've tried longer paddles. I've tried everything. That's why I have over a dozen double bladed paddles. Bending Branches made a double blade, they called a canoe paddle, that was something like 260 cm. I gave it away.
My thinking is, get the length you would get if your boat was a kayak and you weren't worried about water in the boat. There is a reason you don't see kayakers with really long paddles. They are really inefficient and cumbersome. If you use Werner's sizing chart I think it's plenty generous. I hope you like your paddle, but I think you'd have been happier if you'd just gotten used to using a shorter paddle.
Click to expand...

I do believe you need to fit the paddle to the paddler/situation and you can make almost any paddle work, but that doesn't make it it "fitted" or optimum. The whole point of the longer, low angle canoe paddler ( IMO ) is mostly for gunnel clearance for the low angle stroke. If you want to use a high angle stroke, then the discussion moves to a completely different stroke style and by extension a different blade/shaft design.

I agree that using a low angle blade (Canoe) on a long shaft, with a kayak is likely not a good paddling solution and conversely a high angle blade (kayak) design on a shorter shaft, is not likely not a good solution for a regular canoe. I did check out the Werner sizing chart ... it is almost totally kayak based information, which doesn't really translate well to canoe usage IMO.

In the camping group I go with, the majority of solo paddlers are now using DBs, many started with kayak paddles ... none of them stayed with those blades after trying the longer, low angle canoe paddles. Some purchased more expensive adjustable units, some requested a place in my building que ... but none selected anything less than 250 cm. 260 - 270 cm seems to be the sweet spot, although the next batch of my paddles, has requests for 280 cm, what the heck, this is why I build stuff, to try new things.

Just to be clear, I have used a 230 cm kayak paddle and for a canoe, to use your words "I found it clumsy and inefficient", leaning out over the gunnels was tiresome and somehow unnatural, there was a progression to longer lengths and learning a low angle stroke. There is no question in my mind that i am using the right length range for me personally and this length range, also seems to be true for most paddlers I regularly travel with.
 
Been using a DB for 30 years. First a 290 Carlyle heavy weight and I liked it for years. Tried a light 240 on.a 30 day trip and never took it again. Spent the money on an all.carbon Werner 260 and am so happy. Mindless lily dipping all day and no.annoying water in my lap.
 
Interesting thread.
I tried my WW kayak paddle with my little 12' Old Town Pack and hated it. Ok if you like to stay wet and constantly bail I guess.

But I now have a new Esquif Echo 14' solo. I really want to try a low angle DB. Dont really plan to use it 100% of the time but the benefits might be worth the investment. I know better than to spend money on cheap paddles so I want to get it right the first time if at all possible.
I'm 5'7, 175 lb. The Echo is 29 5/8" wide, and 11.5" deep. The seat is pretty darn low. I may raise it a couple inches in order to have a kneeling option.
My instinct is to go with a 260cm, about the longest one I can find. But there seems to be a lot more selections available in 240-250.
My #1 priority is to stay dry as possible.

You long time DB/low angle guys who know how to size em.... what do you think? 260cm the way to go?
 
Personal opinion, take with a grain of salt ....

My Freedom Solo has a 26" gunnel width and my original Grey Owl Tempest was 250 cm ... that worked OK, but after using that for awhile I felt a 260 cm might be better, so I made a 260 cm version and it fit me better, drier, easier stroke, more comfortable.

Because making things is a rabbit hole, I decided to explore a longer length and the next batch of twins was made to 270 cm. Now I also around this time made a new canoe with a gunnel width of 23.5", the 260 and 270 work well with either boats, that is the reason I stated further up that 260 - 270 cm seems to be a sweet spot (at least for me). They both work well for a gunnel width of ~23" to 27" gunnel width.

At 29+" I might be inclined to suggest you are in the next range up from mine above and maybe should be looking for 270 - 280 cm range. As the canoe gets wider, a longer paddle is needed to clear the gunnels at a good/comfortable angle ... there is one fellow in our group with a Prospector style canoe (read that as much wider than mine) and he bought an adjustable version and has it dialed up to 280 cm, that is his comfort zone.

The big thing here is the width of your canoe, you need the length to clear the gunnels, so my advice is to to go longer than 260 cm.

Brian
 
The Werner sizing chart takes both paddler height and canoe width into consideration. They have separate charts for high angle, low angle and whitewater. On their website, pick a paddle, like the Camano and look for the sizing chart link. It's a little hard to spot.
What they don't take into consideration is seat height, which is why I recommend lowering your seat, if it's set high.

I have a minor confession. I do a fitness paddle, about three times a week, and about 90% of the time I use my IK, which is 32.5" wide, with my Werner Skagit CF low angle paddle. I thought this paddle was 230 cm, but I measured it and it's a 240 cm. I tried my Camano in 230cm on Monday and found it to be a tad short. So, for this boat, 240 is about right.

As I said, I have a ton of experience with double bladed paddles, besides my two solo canoes, I have a sea kayak, two touring kayaks, two hard shell recreational kayaks, a crossover kayak, and three IKs, and I've found that the more you use a DB paddle, and DB specific muscles become conditioned, your paddling style is going to, naturally, become more aggressive. You might even move to high angle. For a Rio Grande trip, this spring, I used a Werner Shuna high angle, in 220 cm, with my Esquif Echo and felt pretty comfortable with it.
If my paddle is too short, and I paddle normally, the blade isn't getting fully submerged. If it's too long, it's getting submerged more than it needs to.
kayak paddles lined up.jpg
All my paddles are two piece. These are the left halves.
 
That length fit chart is definitely not easy to notice, but it is where you pointed. "How long is long enough?" will always be a contentious issue IMO and that chart seems to be about 20 - 30 cm shy of where my groups experience suggests the optimum length for touring lies.

At the end of the day, it will come down to the individual user, sitting in their canoe and using a paddle they feel is in the sweet spot for them. The EGL group is lucky that we have several DB lengths available on most trips, so folks wanting to try varying lengths with their own canoe have that option. Then the acquisition part is more informed with personal experience.

If I am making a paddle for some one, having them pre paddle with DB lengths bracketing what they think they want, is something I insist on ... otherwise it is just a guess based on what reading material is available and not actual "in hand" experience. After test paddling, sometimes they guessed right and sometimes they adjust up or down, but with an informed decision they have a better chance of successfully picking a paddle size in their "sweet spot".

After each canoe build, I usually do up a batch of paddles and that batch usually includes 2-3 DBs for friends, they do the "sizing" part on the lake, with various length DBs from the group and come back with a much better idea of what they want. After my current build is completed, there is another batch of paddles planned with 2 requests for 280 cm in that group. Personally, I think that may be on the long side, but it won't stop me from making and trying something new ... it is my way to figure out what works ... if you haven't tried it, the worst that can happen is you learn something.

Brian
 
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