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The Advantages of Screwing on Gunnels !

Jim, I know we prefer different methods for securing gunnels and I've been thinking like this. If the canoe is loved and well cared for and properly stored it probably doesn't matter whether you glue or screw. I've seen plenty of old canoes with screwed gunnels that are in great shape. BUT, if someone is going to not take care of their wood and store it outside on or very close to the ground or just let it be outside for years then by all means the screwed on gunnel is going to rot quicker. An epoxied gunnel will last longer but probably need to be replaced at some point but you would have longer to save it.
 
BWCA66 said:
Jim, I know we prefer different methods for securing gunnels and I've been thinking like this. If the canoe is loved and well cared for and properly stored it probably doesn't matter whether you glue or screw. I've seen plenty of old canoes with screwed gunnels that are in great shape. BUT, if someone is going to not take care of their wood and store it outside on or very close to the ground or just let it be outside for years then by all means the screwed on gunnel is going to rot quicker. An epoxied gunnel will last longer but probably need to be replaced at some point but you would have longer to save it.
Click to expand...

I agree ! Amount of care is paramount ! The point of my post was to illustrate the regularity to which gunnels ( Wood) are replaced. You wouldn't epoxy wood gunnels, to a Royalex canoe anyway.

On a Stripper ? Yeah I'll keep gluing. It does add strength, and I can maybe get by with a little less wood. I'm hoping sealing will will prevent me from replacing, as I do store my hulls high and dry.
 
I sort of figured it like this. I have my three, so far only 3, canoes hanging under a roof, so I'm not worried about rot. The stripper I built was constructed from 3/16 thick strips. If the inwale was screwed on, then the screws were the only securing mechanism every so often. So with screws only, there is more of the gunwales not secured then there is. I preferred glueing them on because this fully secures the entire gunwale, and adds more rigidity to my craft. My next canoe I build I will definitely glue the gunnels on. I never expect to replace my gunnels. If I had to replace them, I'm sure it would be a little more work but is worth it? I think so.
Roy
 
Something that tends to get overlooked with gunnels is the materials used. Ash is used a lot, I suspect because it is commonly available and is economical to use.

It is strong and has great shock resistance, but given it's ability to rot and lack of insect resistance, it is actually not that great a choice for gunnels IMO.

Sometimes your choice of initial materials may render the worry of gluing versus screwing moot.


Brian
 
Cruiser said:
Something that tends to get overlooked with gunnels is the materials used. Ash is used a lot, I suspect because it is commonly available and is economical to use.

It is strong and has great shock resistance, but given it's ability to rot and lack of insect resistance, it is actually not that great a choice for gunnels IMO.

Sometimes your choice of initial materials may render the worry of gluing versus screwing moot.


Brian
Click to expand...

Yes, Choice of woods is important. A good friend built a Beautiful Cherry seat. He laced it with Parachute cord. It broke his first trip. Cherry doesn't have the Flex of Ash, and seems more brittle.

That may have been what led to it's demise.

Ash has been the choice for so long on many canoes. Aluminum or composite would surely rank higher than any wood species I've encountered .

Availability is certainly an issue. I have 8 18'x 15"x 1" planks ! I'll be using that for a while anyway :rolleyes:
 
Jim Dodd said:
Yes, Choice of woods is important. A good friend built a Beautiful Cherry seat. He laced it with Parachute cord. It broke his first trip. Cherry doesn't have the Flex of Ash, and seems more brittle.

That may have been what led to it's demise.

Ash has been the choice for so long on many canoes. Aluminum or composite would surely rank higher than any wood species I've encountered .

Availability is certainly an issue. I have 8 18'x 15"x 1" planks ! I'll be using that for a while anyway :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I agree, but, good luck sourcing ash lumber here in Tallahassee. I always loved working with ash. I could probably order some to be shipped for $$$ I guess, but would not be able to see it first. When I lived in Maryland there was a good source nearby and a 1-2 hour drive were several mills that also had plenty. The mills would have long lengths so I wouldn't even need to scarf it if using it for gunwales. They'd even mill it to appropriate sizes for cheap enough that I would consider letting them do it to avoid having to handle ripping the long lengths.

That said the failures of other species like cherry could be avoided by not expecting the cherry to be able to hold up using pieces of the same dimensions as if it were ash. That just isn't a reasonable expectation. I figure that you need to size according to the properties of the species and yes you (and I) can get it wrong.
 
PeteStaehling said:
When I lived in Maryland there was a good source nearby and a 1-2 hour drive were several mills that also had plenty. The mills would have long lengths so I wouldn't even need to scarf it if using it for gunwales. They'd even mill it to appropriate sizes for cheap enough that I would consider letting them do it to avoid having to handle ripping the long lengths.
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I never knew of anyplace local. Lancaster County PA for the 1-2 hour drive?

Beilers is still around in Quarryville, actually bigger than ever, although I haven’t been there in 30 years to see what they offer.

https://beilersawmill.com/

So is Hollisters Mill and, a true Lancaster County name, Stolzfus.
 
Jim Dodd said:
Yes, Choice of woods is important. A good friend built a Beautiful Cherry seat. He laced it with Parachute cord. It broke his first trip. Cherry doesn't have the Flex of Ash, and seems more brittle.

That may have been what led to it's demise.

Ash has been the choice for so long on many canoes. Aluminum or composite would surely rank higher than any wood species I've encountered .

Availability is certainly an issue. I have 8 18'x 15"x 1" planks ! I'll be using that for a while anyway :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

A friend made a cherry seat and it broke, so cherry is no good ..... c'mon Jim that is just a bad seat design or possibly bad wood usage, as grain orientation is also important. You know I make cherry seats (maybe a dozen so far) and none of them have broke under load ... some loads over 350 pounds and the seats with weaving come in around 740 grams ... so they are also fairly light.

The point is that ash has the strength and flex, but it rots easy and is susceptible to insect damage. It was/is used a lot due to availability and low cost, not because of longevity. If you are going to store it outside, unprotected, this is likely a bad choice of woods, if you store it protected, that is a different story.

This thread is about gunnel attachment methods and the point is that I think you need to consider the gunnel material you use initially ... if you pick ash and store outdoors, the decision is easy, it is going to rot and maybe get eaten, so screwing it makes the most sense, you have pretty much ensured that it will need to be replaced.

If you store indoors and take care of the finish, then that opens the door and you can pick pretty much whatever you want to do the job, it is going to likely outlast you. Then screwing starts to lose any advantage as it will be heavier and more work to apply, than simply gluing with epoxy.

Ash may be a common choice, but in reality it sits pretty far down the suitability list of gunnel woods IMO ... don't get me wrong, it is on the list and can be a decent choice in some circumstances, there are just better choices available in most cases.


Brian
 
Jim Dodd said:
Yes, Choice of woods is important. A good friend built a Beautiful Cherry seat. He laced it with Parachute cord. It broke his first trip. Cherry doesn't have the Flex of Ash, and seems more brittle.

That may have been what led to it's demise.

Ash has been the choice for so long on many canoes. Aluminum or composite would surely rank higher than any wood species I've encountered .

Availability is certainly an issue. I have 8 18'x 15"x 1" planks ! I'll be using that for a while anyway :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Did your friend drill the rails to thread the cord? How big were the frame rails?

We have only used Ash once, difficult to get and too heavy although easy to use and bend. We have used Douglas Fir a few times, easy to get and work with and Honduras Mahogany once, expensive but pretty.

I used cherry for all seats and thwarts but I do laminations, not solid sticks. I did ash once for seat frames restoring a Chestnut for caning. I muc prefer cherry though. The latest set of seats is just regular spruce, laminated, should be interesting to see how that holds up.

Our boats with wood rails are always stored inside. We do not coat rails with epoxy, just Epifanes varnish. We have no issues with screwing gunnels of any wood type.

Karin
 
Yes, the dimensions of any frame comes into play. Laminating generally improves the quality of a seat frame material also.

Admittedly ! My frames are heavier than most ! I have never had a Failure, with Ash.

My friend tried to duplicate an Ash frame, with Cherry. Yes, he drilled holes for the cord. The break was at the joint of the cross member and the front frame. Lucky for him, he could stuff a bag under the seat for support. At the Time I would have guessed him at 200#.

I would venture a guess, that if the grain and dimensions of, an Ash and Cherry seat rail. were the same, and under an increasing load test ? The Cherry would be the first to break.
 
Brian

After doing a little internet searching. Cherry is more Rot resistant than Ash. I was surprised !

But in the Strength department ? Ash wins out.

People can build a seat out of Tooth Pics and claim that it is the best seat material.

All I'm going by is what I've experienced ? Ash has stood the test for me ! My friend. Switched to Ash, to replace the seat frame on his canoe !

I need to make a trip to Algona and check on my friends canoes. They are Stored inside his Garage.
 
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Jim ... I think that is what I said ... further I was making the point that you shouldn't assume a manufacture will make the same decision a home builder would. Ash is strong and cheap, from a manufacturer PoV that is a good combo, the longevity is on the consumer .... from a home builder PoV, we have the luxury of actually picking the best materials for our projects and for gunnels that isn't ash. It is a choice and a workable choice at that, just not necessarily the best choice in some cases.

As with all things "building a canoe" you get to choose and make all the decisions, I was trying to highlight a decision that a lot of builders "assume" is the right one for the very reasons you pointed out ... and why they may not be the best decisions.


Brian
 
My reason for starting this thread, was basically pointing out the " Down Falls" of the method of Screwing on gunnels.

Not to debate Wood Choices !

I interjected MY experience, in the use of Cherry.. For many it's a good choice. I might have liked it also, had I not see it fail on a friends canoe.

A once bitten twice shy thing !

Again for durability ? Any wood might not be the best choice. Every builder has that choice to make !

Jim
 
Like lots of things Jim, sometimes you can't separate everything into separate compartments. How well a particular technique works sometimes is as much about what you use, as well as how you do it.
Up until a few months ago, my wood selection paradigm had ash near the top for suitability in a variety of canoe applications .... then I read an article and did some research, paradigm shattered.

Would I still use ash on a gunnel, absolutely (I do regular maintenance) .... the underlying point here is that if you store wood outside without regular maintenance you will have a problem, regardless of the wood. It won't matter if you glue or screw your gunnels on, the elements don't care and will work to reclaim the wood. It is really just a question of how fast the reclamation occurs.

To revisit the point Roybrew made about gunnel size. I suspect that most builds are not going to employ the "regular" 3/4" x 3/4" gunnel size as they are heavy and way "overbuilt", but as the gunnel size/thickness reduces, the amount of depth for securing the screw thread is also reduced ... so the very process of trying to optimize canoe construction will push the gunnel attachment to the gluing method, because at some point there just won't be enough real estate for screwing.

This may be the single biggest limitation to the "screwing on " gunnel method, if you want to reduce the size of gunnel materials, you run the risk of not having enough wood left to securely fasten the gunnels. I use ~5/16" gunnels and I would not even attempt to screw those on ... so as the size goes down, the choice of best attachment method swings to glued/epoxy.

Brian
 
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