Starting from Scratch: Sitting/Kneeling or Pack-Boat Style?

[JoeWildlife]

Hey Jim, congrats on your new boat! Although this is of little value to you, perhaps others will appreciate my much different perspective on canoe choice. I use my solo canoes for either long wilderness paddles on flatwater, carrying larger loads and fishing, OR ultramarathon paddling. Comfort and efficiency are of the highest priority. In the Everglades Challenge, a 300 mile "race" from St. Petersburg FL to Key Largo, 20 hour days are typical, and paddling a 36 hour stretch is necessary to get me towards the front of the solo pack of challengers. The fastest guys are in fast expedition kayaks like the Epic 18x. But I'm not a kayak guy, so I go with a decked and rudder-equipped canoe. I have Kruger Sea Winds for the wilderness trips, and did the EC in the Sea Wind once. I have a Clipper Sea 1 for the EC, and used it in 2016 and am going back in March 2019 for my third event. Also I use a 1 square meter sail. I'm a hack when it comes to handling a canoe paddle. I use a bent shaft ZRE powersurge extreme. Never learned much in the way of corrective strokes. Hit on one side as long as I want, concentrating only on putting power down, and switch only when fatigued. The rudder does the tracking for me. The Clipper is a V bottom hull and tracks very straight in all kinds of weather conditions, some of which can get quite nasty. An analogy just occurred to me...these canoes are like NASCAR machines. Made to go fast and straight. A lot of the solo canoes mentioned in this thread are more like Indy cars perhaps. When it comes to canoes, there is no truer cliché than "different strokes for different folks".

 

[yellowcanoe]

The Monarch is my go to for Everglades and Gulf Paddling. It is similar to the boat Joe Wilderness paddles a sea canoe. Excellent for big water.
And alas, my last choice out of the stable for BWCA and ADK type trips.. 55 lbs and 17.5 feet is not friendly in loonshit nor on three mile portages.
Kinda illustrates the variety of canoes.They parallel the variety of ecosystems that canoes are paddled in.

And the validiity of the equation
number of canoes needed= number of canoes now in the stable+1

 

[Gamma1214]

YC, the more I read on this site, the more I think my equation is currently around "+4". Tough part is narrowing it down to precisely WHICH 4 (or 5...)

 

[yknpdlr]

My main solo boats are a small Hornbeck and a PlacidBoat Rapidfire. In the sit-on-bottom Hornbeck I have no choice, a kayak paddle is the only real option. My rapidfire came with 3 different stacking seat heights. That boat is sold with the intention of using a double blade paddle for most people. I am not most people. I enjoy the flexibility and variety of strokes available with a nicely made canoe paddle. To me, a kayak paddle is "dip, swish and drip" with little of the kind of control available with a single blade.I found even the highest available stacked seat was not good enough to use with a single blade canoe paddle with efficient strokes.

So I had Joe (PB owner) install an even higher rail mounted seat, like he has in his own boat. Now I use a single blade paddle almost exclusively in that boat. I say "almost" because there is one time when I cannot. If I paddle that boat in the Adirondack 90 mile canoe race, the only class of boat that it fits in requires use of a kayak paddle by the rules. The worst part is lack of precise control with a double paddle, plus the water drips especially if you use a fast high angle stroke. One year I paddled along beside one of Joe's co-worker employees in a RF. I had installed a fabic spray cover because I knew of the problem, he did not. We both had similar double blade paddles After paddling the12 mile length of Long Lake on day 2 of the race, Andy, without a spray cover had to stop in the shallows to dump many gallons of water out of his canoe accumulated from drips. I kept going thanks to my cover. Otherwise, most days I use my RF to train for paddling in other canoes, using either a racing bent shaft graphite, or using a recreational cherry wood paddle.

 

[Cruiser]

I use a longer twin paddle on my solo, and although I don't get much drippage from the paddle, there is an easy way to address the issue (and any other sources of water, rain,waves etc).

I place a shamwow just at the seat area .... since most boats get trimmed level ... this is a convenient way to collect the water and then just wring over the side when it gets soaked.

No bailing or fussing, just a quick wring and you are ready tomove on.

Brian

 

[Iskweo]

I see we have gone from seat height to paddle types as we slide down this rabbit hole...lol.

Old lady perspective.....use whatever paddle makes you happy. You can even paddle with a pole as I discovered this summer. Intriguing. I prefer a traditional style single stick. Just because.

Seats....I like mine wide and cushiony. Traditional theory mostly placed them just below the gunwale line but I find that to be too high for my liking. Ergo I drop the seats down about 6 inches. Once again, just because. My only real consideration is will the two burner Coleman slide underneath.

I might like to try a pedestal seat like Alan built....that seems like a good day tripping option. I dont generally kneel though...old lady, bad knees, leg cramps etc.

In the past I have used folding seats with the back rest to help support my tired old body...it does work. Cushiony...yessssssss.

I salute all those who can sit on their packs with a kneeling thwart all day long. You have it goin on my friend. The picture of Irene sitting in a lawn chair in the middle of Mem's motor canoe pretty much sums up my current approach though.

Christy

 

[yellowcanoe]

PN=PC+1

but there is a stopping point. I have some three dozen and out of them use maybe six.. A Grey Owl Freestyle ( very nice touring paddle but maybe a tad wide. Unfortunately it is veneered and unfortunately no longer made. . Its replacement a little too expensive for me)

And A Grey Owl Voyager.. For an econo paddle surprisingly durable..
And my Zaveral but I did break the shaft. Its a lightweight paddle and is not designed for pries as I found out 20 miles down the Missinaibi.
And my Dog Paddle and Quimby which are too much money to take tripping.

I used to teach beginning paddling and depending on where we were we would forage for straight branches or use curtain dowels to start out.

No more sitting on bean bag for me. Becky Mason can do it but my artificial knees are not designed for that. Kneeling etc is now quite painful due to permanent nerve damage.

 

[Black_Fly]

I never kneel. Bad knees. I know so many people with bad knees, it's hard to believe that many people kneel in a canoe regularly or exclusively.

 

[yellowcanoe]

I never kneel. Bad knees. I know so many people with bad knees, it's hard to believe that many people kneel in a canoe regularly or exclusively.

Its quite comfortable even with "bad knees" when you have a thick pad. Since 1990 I needed a knee replacement.. Kneeling on the floor was agony.. Kneeling on a thick minicell pad heaven.. I had the replacement in 2016. I can't kneel now as my hip is shot and going from kneeling to sitting is agony But the fake knee is fine.

 

[ShawnD]

So I wrestled with all the OP’s questions before I bought my last solo. I bought a boat that does all of those things pretty well. I have a Swift Keewaydin 14 with a combi seat. It gives me a pack seat that I mostly use in the spring for the most stability when water temps are dangerous.

Most of the time I will use the standard solo seat. I have an adjustable removable carbon foot brace which I use when seated. Double blade and single blade work equally well in my opinion.

I am maybe a little faster in the pack seat vs the standard solo seat with double blade but not by much.

With the standard solo seat I can also kneel when required. I even kneeled using a double blade when going through some swifts and C1s with a double blade on the Petawawa last year.

In terms of paddles I now use a 240 cm Werner Kaliste. I have also used a 250cm Camano. Length wise both are fine I like the Kaliste better but I think the 250 is drier.

I also use a GRB bent or Sanborn carbon and wood bent Gunflint when seated or kneeling.

I also have a 48 inch bent that works for a single blade when the pack seat is in. Helpful for narrow rivers and when trolling with the pack seat in.

Swift now offers the adjustable pod seat which offers much of the same flexibility I think.

 

[yellowcanoe]

ShawnD it just goes to show you how Swift has made lots of innovations ( after researching what others are doing I am sure) in the past couple of years. Who would have thought canoe =innovation?
I think Swift went to the pod as infused gunwales don't allow for hanging seats well. I will be interested as to how well they last and wear.

 

[Cruiser]

ShawnD, if you are finding that a single blade is almost as fast as your double, then I suspect something is amiss. The double should be much quicker and a lot less effort than the single, albeit, not quite as much precision.

I drive a Freedom Solo 16' ( I have 2) and use a double (250 cm, 260 cm) almost exclusively, last fall 3 of us ventured into Algonquin, my friend just bought a Kee 14 and I has agreed to loan him one of my longer twin blades, the other friend borrowed one of my Freedoms and brought his own (shorter) Kayak paddle. With his short Kayak paddle friend 2 just couldn't get the Freedom rolling, I ended up plodding along with him to keep him company, while the Kee 14 went ahead and scouted camp sites.

Next day, I loaned him my longer twin and he went exploring .... needless to say he said it was entirely different and the boat pretty much danced for him.

Using a twin in a canoe IMO is entirely different than in a kayak, different lengths, different stroke .... just like a single blade, you have to get the right length, right style and learn how to use it. If you just grab a kayak paddle and try and use it .... you can get water in boat and usually a frustrated paddler.

Brian

 

[ShawnD]

Sorry Cruiser. My point wasn't clear. Yes double blade is much faster that my single bents.

Point i was unsuccessfully trying to make was... speed using the double blade in the pack seat or standard height solo seat is about the same. Maybe a bit faster in the pack seat.

 

[yellowcanoe]

ShawnD, if you are finding that a single blade is almost as fast as your double, then I suspect something is amiss. The double should be much quicker and a lot less effort than the single, albeit, not quite as much precision.

I drive a Freedom Solo 16' ( I have 2) and use a double (250 cm, 260 cm) almost exclusively, last fall 3 of us ventured into Algonquin, my friend just bought a Kee 14 and I has agreed to loan him one of my longer twin blades, the other friend borrowed one of my Freedoms and brought his own (shorter) Kayak paddle. With his short Kayak paddle friend 2 just couldn't get the Freedom rolling, I ended up plodding along with him to keep him company, while the Kee 14 went ahead and scouted camp sites.

Next day, I loaned him my longer twin and he went exploring .... needless to say he said it was entirely different and the boat pretty much danced for him.

Using a twin in a canoe IMO is entirely different than in a kayak, different lengths, different stroke .... just like a single blade, you have to get the right length, right style and learn how to use it. If you just grab a kayak paddle and try and use it .... you can get water in boat and usually a frustrated paddler.

Brian

There is more to speed than just the power.. A 16 foot has a lot more skin to produce friction. You need to be trained to develop horsepower without yaw. The shorter boat may in of itself be faster given a horsepower. Hydrodynamics matters.
The short paddle can actually be faster if the paddler is trained to use a high angle stroke. It produces way less yaw even if you never carry the blade past your hip with a longer blade;albeit the longer blade may be drier( but paddle shape has more to do with dry than anything else)

Anyhoo the point is that there is not one variable here there are at least three or four and the algebra gets complicated.

My double blade stroke is pretty much the same kayak or canoe.. Low and cab forward( meaning the blade never goes back of my hip). In a canoe the stroke might actually be higher but my top hand never goes above my nose.

And yes its possible to get a single blade to propel a canoe as fast as a double with a blade light enough to get the >60 strokes a minute you need with a single.. But it requires a lot of training and technique and most rec paddlers don't want to do that for very long.

Yet my friend Shawn Burke ( a marathon canoe racer) has devoted much time to the Science of Paddling. Beware he is an engineer a nerd and in top shape.
https://thescienceofpaddling.net/part-5-what-moves-you

 

[yknpdlr]

Yet my friend Shawn Burke ( a marathon canoe racer) has devoted much time to the Science of Paddling. Beware he is an engineer a nerd and in top shape.
https://thescienceofpaddling.net/part-5-what-moves-you

I do not know Shawn, but it appears that I may have paddled in many of the same canoe races as he over the years. I may even have met him, but I do not recall if I did. If I may, I'll offer a bit of a friendly critique. I can easily tell from his use of language in the text that he is an engineer/nerd, as am I. But he spent a lot of the article introducing and explaining Newton's laws in greatly simplified but prolonged language of momentum, velocity and energy without actually mentioning Newton. The only part about moving a canoe not discussed was acceleration (F=ma). All discussed was technically correct, but I think he may lose many readers in the simple techno-talk intro before getting to the point. Overall an interesting and useful article and I do intend to read the others in his series.

 

[yknpdlr]

And yes its possible to get a single blade to propel a canoe as fast as a double with a blade light enough to get the >60 strokes a minute you need with a single.. But it requires a lot of training and technique and most rec paddlers don't want to do that for very long.

When I reluctantly paddle my Rapidfire with a double blade paddle (as is required in that boat's racing class), I find that my speed is up to about a half mph faster than when I use a racing bent carbon single blade. A high angle double blade stroke is necessary to be anywhere near competitive. Wide low angle sweeping strokes are wasteful of energy and produce excessive yaw. Hit and switch is otherwise necessary with a single blade to move very fast and always necessary when racing. I do also dislike hit and switch paddling, especially when recreationally paddling in any boat. It is difficult to maintain a high spm rate with solo H&S (there would be no way in a RF to keep up with Joe Moore's double blade Shadow). But when I am in my usual position as the bow paddler with a good stern paddler in a tandem, C4, or voyageur, my hit and switch stroke rate is >60 spm in smooth water, often as high as 72bpm, and when a sprint is necessary, in the 80's.

I don't have or ever paddle in an actual kayak, so I cannot comment on how that might work for me, but don't count on me doing it either.

 

[Cruiser]

There is more to speed than just the power.. A 16 foot has a lot more skin to produce friction. You need to be trained to develop horsepower without yaw. The shorter boat may in of itself be faster given a horsepower. Hydrodynamics matters.
The short paddle can actually be faster if the paddler is trained to use a high angle stroke. It produces way less yaw even if you never carry the blade past your hip with a longer blade;albeit the longer blade may be drier( but paddle shape has more to do with dry than anything else)

Anyhoo the point is that there is not one variable here there are at least three or four and the algebra gets complicated.

My double blade stroke is pretty much the same kayak or canoe.. Low and cab forward( meaning the blade never goes back of my hip). In a canoe the stroke might actually be higher but my top hand never goes above my nose.

And yes its possible to get a single blade to propel a canoe as fast as a double with a blade light enough to get the >60 strokes a minute you need with a single.. But it requires a lot of training and technique and most rec paddlers don't want to do that for very long.

Yet my friend Shawn Burke ( a marathon canoe racer) has devoted much time to the Science of Paddling. Beware he is an engineer a nerd and in top shape.
https://thescienceofpaddling.net/part-5-what-moves-you

I guess I wasn't as clear as I could have been, 2 Freedoms, both loaded for tripping, 1 short twin, 1 long twin ... short twin couldn't keep up, when he tried a longer blade, most of his issues went away. I also use a "tweeny" seat, a lowered high seat, somewhat higher than a pack seat, lower than a traditional high seat, say 5" down. The point I was trying to make is that whatever blade you use, it must be fitted to task/user, when folks try a twin, it seems to get forgotten that fitting a twin is just as tricky as fitting a single. In this case my buddy did just that, he is very picky about his single blade, but just grabbed whatever twin he could borrow, figuring anything would work .... it didn't, it doesn't.

Guess I should qualify that also with saying my comments are pretty much limited to tripping conditions, don't get me wrong, I carry a single blade and use it on occasion, just if I want to make kilometers or the weather turns, it's the twin all the way.

It might be my limited knowledge, but I don't find that I would use the same stroke (or paddle) in a kayak versus a canoe .... using a twin paddle.

Brian

 

[Guest]

A common misconception about "kneeling" in a canoe is that you have all your weight on your knees. With a proper seat height and angle you can have as little as no weight on you knees as you choose the amount weight on your knees by just a slight shift of your body. I dabble blade from a high seat when necessary, and I think kneeling is the my most powerful position. besides, a high seat also allows you so shift around to many other positions as the spirit moves you.

 

[Black_Fly]

I always bring both single and double bladed paddles. 240 or 260 on big water.

 

[joebh]

My main solo boats are a small Hornbeck and a PlacidBoat Rapidfire. In the sit-on-bottom Hornbeck I have no choice, a kayak paddle is the only real option. My rapidfire came with 3 different stacking seat heights. That boat is sold with the intention of using a double blade paddle for most people. I am not most people. I enjoy the flexibility and variety of strokes available with a nicely made canoe paddle. To me, a kayak paddle is "dip, swish and drip" with little of the kind of control available with a single blade.I found even the highest available stacked seat was not good enough to use with a single blade canoe paddle with efficient strokes.

So I had Joe (PB owner) install an even higher rail mounted seat, like he has in his own boat. Now I use a single blade paddle almost exclusively in that boat. I say "almost" because there is one time when I cannot. If I paddle that boat in the Adirondack 90 mile canoe race, the only class of boat that it fits in requires use of a kayak paddle by the rules. The worst part is lack of precise control with a double paddle, plus the water drips especially if you use a fast high angle stroke. One year I paddled along beside one of Joe's co-worker employees in a RF. I had installed a fabic spray cover because I knew of the problem, he did not. We both had similar double blade paddles After paddling the12 mile length of Long Lake on day 2 of the race, Andy, without a spray cover had to stop in the shallows to dump many gallons of water out of his canoe accumulated from drips. I kept going thanks to my cover. Otherwise, most days I use my RF to train for paddling in other canoes, using either a racing bent shaft graphite, or using a recreational cherry wood paddle.

I have the same Rapidfire setup and would like the option of a high mounted seat I could kneel from
Can you post photos of your setup and also if you can change from sit on the bottom bucket seats or rail mounted seats?