• Happy National Paranormal Day! 🔮👻👽

Starting from Scratch: Sitting/Kneeling or Pack-Boat Style?

I like my seats to be lower than factory. Certainly not just bolted to the bottom side of the gunwales like you see sometimes. A 6 - 8 inch drop works for me. Of course I never stick my feet under the seat. I cant remember kneeling at all. I sit.That is what seats are for. If its so rough that I feel I must kneel then it is time to get off the water.
Since you are a beginning paddler I will suggest that you forget a double blade and learrn how to paddle first before worrying about any theoretical advantage a double might give you. You wont be skilled enough to make that matter.
I am using a wooden sugar island style blade currently with a Grey Owl otter tail as my backup. We also have a nice composite bent that I love ( Raven). Get one composite and one wooden paddle...the composite for all day paddling and the wooden one for the shallow rocky work. Then learn to paddle. Learn hit and switch, its the answer. Actually the answer is find a partner and go tandem, but thats another thread...lol.

Good luck ...just get out there and give 'er.

YC...I cant imagine anything you do being described as " ugly" Hon. Entertaining possibly.

Christy
 
Turtle,

Glenn,

Thanks for the detailed response. By "low seat", I meant sit-on-the-hull pack-boat style seating. "High seat" was for a standard canoe-style seat.

I found your recommendation to acquire a bent shaft paddle very intriguing. I've read that a bent shaft is more efficient going forward, but it's not as good for maneuvering. I was thinking I'd add a bent shaft later on along with one or more "animal tail" style paddles. Your recommendation to start off buying a bent shaft suggests there's more difference between a straight and bent shaft paddle than I imagined. I have also assumed that I need at least a modest amount of experience paddling in order to properly appreciate the different styles of paddles. As for not purchasing a double blade paddle right at the start, no worries there -- I suspect the boat and required accessories are going to consume all my available funds.

I have been reading the book Paddle Your Own Canoe by the McGuffins and it has provided good instructions for the basic strokes, but not the pitch stroke, palm-rolled Indian, or hit and switch. I haven't finished the book yet, so those may be buried somewhere near the back. But with regards to hit and switch, I have gotten the impression from the book that I should just stick with paddling on my strong side and cross-paddle as needed. I plan to evaluate that assumption after I've gotten a boat and can be out there, but there is the risk of unintentionally cementing a bad habit.

Jim, if you're going to get a pack canoe, which is nothing more than an undecked kayak, I'd just stick with the double blade and forget all about serious single blading.

However, if you're going to get a solo canoe, then you have to become serious about single blade technique.

In the broadest generality, there are two different single blade techniques: single-sided correction stroking and hit & switch stroking (aka sit 'n switch, Minnesota switch, North American touring technique). You can become proficient in either technique -- and each technique prefers a different type of hull and paddle -- or you can become proficient in both.

Before discussing the techniques, I'll comment on paddling straight and paddling with turning control.

99% of the time I paddle on lakes and slow rivers I'm paddling paddling straight ahead and don't care about turning control. In my opinion, the most efficient paddle for going straight is a 12 degree bent shaft paddle. And that's true whether I'm kneeling, which is 93% of the time, or sitting, which is 7% of the time. A skilled paddler can have sufficient turn control with a bent shaft on any flat or slow moving water. The only time I strongly prefer a straight shaft paddle is in very twisty streams, very swift rivers or definitely in whitewater, because turn control and sideslipping are equally as or more important than forward propulsion in those kinds of waters. I also go to a straight paddle for freestyle play and just for a change of pace. These comments all apply when I am using single-sided correction stroke paddling technique.

Other skilled single-sided correction stroke paddlers prefer straight shafts over bent shafts even on flat water. Sometimes they will argue that it's harder to correct yaw with a bent shaft than a straight shaft. I agree with that theoretically, but it makes no difference to me in practice. I have adapted my correction strokes so bent vs. straight shaft is immaterial for correction, and I'm convinced that bents are more efficient and less tiring for straight ahead paddling, which, as I said, is what I do 99% of the time.

When I am using hit & switch technique, I use bent paddles 100% of the time. And so does every CanAm canoe racer and outrigger canoe racer in the world.

Now, on to technique and the importance of cross strokes and ambidexterity:

Single-sided correction stroke technique.

You really must learn this for functional and aesthetic reasons because it's so elegant, whereas hit & switch paddling is repetitively boring albeit effective. While you will always have a dominant side, you must learn the cross-forward and cross-draw strokes; otherwise, you will never be truly effective in moving water, much less whitewater. However, you should also become competent, if not actually ambidextrous, paddling on your offside. For this is what you will do half the time in hit & switch paddling, and what you will do with any technique when you're paddling into quartering headwind coming from your on-side.

You can correct off-side bow yaw at any of the four stages of the forward stroke -- catch, pull, finish or recovery:

1. At the catch and initial pull with a slight bow draw ---> the C stroke
2. During the power phase pull with an angled blade ---> the pitch stroke
3. At the end of the power phase but before the recovery with an outward push-pry ---> the J stroke
4. During a partial in-water return on the recovery phase ---> the Canadian stroke (or top-loaded forward slice return)
5. During a full in-water return in which the paddle never goes into the air ---> the Indian stroke with palm roll

You can also palm roll the Canadian stroke, which is the most effortless and elegant of the correction strokes, in my opinion. I use a combination of C and Canadian as my regular forward correction stroke regardless of whether I'm using a bent or straight shaft paddle. Sometimes I throw in a little pitch during the power pull. It all blends together automatically and autonomically when you have enough single-sided experience.

My favorite video on single-sided correction strokes remains Bill Mason's classic Basic Solo Canoeing, which unfortunately doesn't call out the C stroke initial bow draw by name. "C stroke", as a name, seems to have been coined in the 70's by Mike Galt or Pat Moore.

Hit & switch stroke technique.

This is what all rank novices will reflexively do in order to stop a canoe from yawing to the off-side. They will switch hands clumsily, usually with heavy and much too long straight paddles.

All top canoe racers use hit & switch because it eliminates the drag effect from using a correction stroke. All the strokes are purely forward power. The correction is effected by switching hands every three to eight strokes -- depending on hull shape and skill level -- with lightning quick paddle side changes, using short and very light bent shaft paddles. What takes time to learn is the paddle exchange technique and the comfort in paddling half the time on your off-side.

If you're really driven to be single blade expert, you can also practice cross-strokes from your off-side, and thus become truly ambidextrous like Nolan Whitesell.

There are many books and videos on hit & switch (= racing = marathon C1) technique. Here's just one at random:


In sum, I recommend learning both techniques. I really only use hit & switch when going into wind or when going upstream in a swift current. But these are important and trying times, and they are precisely the times when many canoeists with be tempted to use double blades.

If you have a long paddling career, you can cycle through dozens of paddles like many of us have. I've now boiled it all down to two paddles, both carbon ZRE's. At 5-9 in height, the one I use for 85% of my paddling -- which 93% of the time is on my knees -- is a 48.5" bent shaft with an asymmetical ZRE Power Curve face. The other is a 57" straight shaft symmetical-faced ZRE Flatwater paddle, which has a very hard to find symmetrical grip so I can palm roll it. 57" is really about two or three inches too long for vanilla flatwater forward paddling, but the extra length is useful for whitewater and other high turn-control situations.

I'm anti-animal tail paddle because I don't like their overall weight, their blade-heavy balance or their excessive leverage arc in the water. In fairness, plenty of accomplished flatwater correction stroke paddlers disagree. But no one can elegantly hit & switch at a high stroke rate with a long-bladed animal tail paddle, and in wind and upstream travel the animalists are good candidates for seduction by the paganism of the double blade.
 
First, I'll just confirm what YC said about length of the double. I also find a 230 or 240 to work in any canoe - including the more flat water tandems I've had. I just use a higher angle stroke in the wider boats. But I don't use a double much.

Also, my experience is far less than Glenn's, but I agree with everything he said in his last two posts.......except I do like to use an ottertail when soloing in a tandem, partly because of the longer reach and lever arm. I find animal tails to be of little or no use in a solo canoe though.

But I noticed, Jim, that you stated intent to get a carbon double, and a wood single. I wonder if this general tendency is behind the belief by some that the double is less tiring. If you can justify the expense for a carbon double, you should also be looking at a carbon single (or two). A 10oz paddle reduces fatigue and shortens recovery time.
 
Here's a couple of my thoughts. For a first boat I would go with a more middle of the road type boat as apposed to a sit on the bottom boat for safety especially if you may take trips up to 10 days. It will certainly give you a better feel for what canoeing is about.

As far as paddles go I would put my money on a light straight paddle and skip the double. I never had a double, but I think the weight savings of a 10 oz single used well has to be an energy saver. As far as a bent shaft, I never owned one, so all I can say is I don't miss what I never had. I always have two straight shafts to use as a yoke on trips.

On paddling styles, if you don't know correction and other strokes you're just a guy in a canoe. You need to know enough strokes to control your boat to be a canoeist. Hit and switch is what you need for power to get you where you're going efficiently. I like them both.
 
Well, I can't stand double blades or bents either... but since I've been paddling so long without being corrupted by formal education, my biased opinion is permanently burned into muscle memory and I'm not gonna change now.

The Big Lebowski comment on opinion:

 
So let's add a new dimension to the conversation - keel or no keel. If 90% of my paddleing was on flat water or slow rivers I would go with a keel. Since I like all kinds of water (except serious whitewater) I have both.
 
Keels are meant to protect the bottom of heavy hulls that get dragged onshore. Used to be quite commin on heavy wood canvas canoes. No need for them on feather weight solos. Pick the darn thing up
Keels do nothing for tracking. Proper hull design does and good instruction is well worth the money and the time.
I can get a newbie from switching sides willy billy to a good J in an hour. It's not hard if you are properly coached
 
Another thing about keels... they're said to increase resistance and decrease paddling efficiency when moving through water. The explanation given was that even though a canoe is being paddled in what's thought to be straight forward movement along an intended straight line, the orientation of the hull isn't perfectly aligned along that line at all times. The hull axis drifts off that line at times to the left or right while moving forward, resulting in the water flow not being perfectly aligned with the hull axis (with water flow not aligned and parallel with the keel if there is one).

So the water flows at times at an angle over and across the keel, rather than parallel. This creates turbulence along the hull which increases resistance. What's wanted in water flow is smooth, undisturbed flow as much as possible, even if the hull is moving a little crosswise at times. An unkeeled hull presents a smoother surface to any crosswise water flow when it does occur, with less turbulence and less resistance.

The increase in turbulence results in the same sort of increase in frictional resistance that a rough hull creates vs a smooth one being covered in the other thread (forgot the title)... the keeled hull is at times acting as a rougher-surfaced hull and frictional resistance increases when compared to unkeeled.

WRT hull roughness reducing paddling efficiency... IIRC those lab guys in the white coats have numbers on this from tow tests so it's more than, like, just opinion, man...

;)


PS... the term for the canoe's axis (along the keel line) turning away from the straight-ahead line of travel may be called slipslipping or skidding.
 
Last edited:
Well....I'm not a fan of keels on canoes - but it seems unlikely that one can be both a source of drag when skidding and also be of no use for tracking or resisting being blown about by the wind. I think sometimes we overthink these things.

Ultimately, the keel is most usually just a cheap means of stiffening a flat bottom hull (another thing I'm no fan of). Unless we're talking sailboats.......a whole other thing.
 
Hello again Everybody,

I've been silent the past couple of days because I've been camped over in Algonquin Provincial Park so I could test paddle some boats at Swift Canoe which is right next to the park. I tested an Adirondack 13.6 with a kayak paddle, a Keewaydin 14 and 15, and a Shearwater. The latter three all being standard solo canoes, i.e. not the pack boat variety.

The standard canoe seating was not nearly as precarious as imagined and I did indeed find I was able to C stroke and J stroke and maintain a straight line. (Not saying it was pretty, but I got where I wanted to go! :)). I also found with the kayak paddle that no matter where I put the drip rings on the Werner Skagit loaner paddle, I could not keep water from flowing back down into the boat. Certainly, with time and practice, I could probably have reduced the amount of water the kayak paddle was dripping into the boat, but I also recalled this was a problem I never solved years ago when I had a kayak.

To sum up, I bought the Keewaydin 15; the standard version, not the pack boat, and a Grey Owl Voyager paddle. I feel like the Voyager is a good, straight and straightforward middle of the road paddle that I will never regret having purchased. Throughout the actual shopping and test paddling, I remembered many of the comments made in this forum and found them to be very helpful. I am confident I have made the right choice for me and that is due in no small part to the wisdom and experience you've shared with me.

Thanks!

Jim
 
Ha, I could have predicted the keel discussion but I put it out there anyway. I would disagree that a keel does nothing for tracking, especially on a flat bottom boat. I will agree that you probably won't find one on a dedicated solo, but many on this site solo in tandem's.
 
Have a great time but consider putting more coats of varnish on that paddle. I have one of them too and it's only got one coat from the factory. It's a utility paddle but decent and you might consider more protection.

Now next. The portage yoke?
 
Have a great time but consider putting more coats of varnish on that paddle. I have one of them too and it's only got one coat from the factory. It's a utility paddle but decent and you might consider more protection.

Now next. The portage yoke?

Thanks for the tip on the varnish -- that's the sort of thing I wouldn't have thought about until after a problem had developed.

As for the portage yoke, I bought a generic cherry yoke from Algonquin Outfitters next door for less than half the cost of the one sold by Swift. But I have to modify it to attach to the canoe and I just this morning came up with a plan to do so.
 
That is a gorgeous boat! 15 footers are great for napping too. Some day you may want to add a Zaveral bent shaft paddle as a treat since you plan to travel and will need a back-up paddle anyway. You can buy them extra long with the handle not glued in and trim with a hacksaw until perfect.
 
Another single blade paddle advantage; Just back from a trip up The osswagochie and several times, while using the "indian stroke" (in-water recovery), I got close to otters, beavers, muskrats ect. When using my double blade that happens much less often.
 
Back
Top