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Solo 14

Alan Gage

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I've been wanting something more maneuverable for moving water day trips so decided to build another canoe (imagine that). 14'x30" with something like 1.5" rocker and pretty soft stems. Fairly high volume carried to the stems to give Sadie more room and hopefully provide a drier ride in rapids. Symmetrical below the water line but higher sheer in the bow.

I'm not going to knock myself out trying to keep the weight down but I do have a 15' roll of carbon fiber laying around so I thought I'd use that on the outside and 4oz glass on the inside. Finished stripping the hull with 5/32" strips yesterday and this evening was spent sanding and coating with thickened epoxy to fill cracks and staple holes. In a few days I'll sand it down again in preparation for carbon.

20170425_001 by Alan, on Flickr

20170425_002 by Alan, on Flickr

20170425_003 by Alan, on Flickr

20170425_004 by Alan, on Flickr

20170425_005 by Alan, on Flickr

Alan
 
Alan,
Are you going to put anything else on the outside over the carbon?
The carbon alone will scrub away like a No. 2 pencil!
And the carbon performs poorly in compression. You would have a much more useful hull with the carbon on the inside and a layer and a half of the 4 oz glass on the outside.

BTW, the hull looks nice. Is this another Alan Gage design?
 
Alan,
Are you going to put anything else on the outside over the carbon?
The carbon alone will scrub away like a No. 2 pencil!

I know carbon doesn't have much abrasion resistance but I'm not going to cover it with anything except for the stems and maybe a narrow strip down the center of the boat. It won't be going on any 30 day trips so if it starts to wear into the cloth I can always bring into the shop for repairs.

And the carbon performs poorly in compression.

I've always heard the opposite....or at least when it comes to carbon in comparison to kevlar. I'll have to do some more research. I have a couple days to figure it out.

BTW, the hull looks nice. Is this another Alan Gage design?

Thanks. And yes.

Alan
 
I always seen from the outside carbon and then kevlar or carbon again... Also S-glass, carbon, kevlar...
 
And the carbon performs poorly in compression.

Well a little sniffing around in the Googles seems to confirm that you are correct (no surprise there). Fiberglass outside and carbon inside makes things much easier.

Thanks!

Alan
 
I know there were two weave types, Twill and Plain. What I used on Vader left a texture, that needed covered. I added a layer of 6 oz E-glass, that would have been enough, but also added a layer of 9 oz S-glass, up to about the 3-4" waterline.
I'm with stripperguy. I'd cover that carbon, with something.


The hull looks nice ! It would make a GREAT Mold !!! Hint, Hint !

Jim
 
What kind of design changes in your new boat are you looking for compared to the Kite in the background other than the obvious tumblehome.
 
Uh-oh, I'm falling behind... Still in the "what category should I be in" stage.

Did you hand-loft that, or use a CAD program? If CAD, did you get any of the basic stats?
 
(Ooops, no text)

I've been wanting something more maneuverable for moving water day trips so decided to build another canoe (imagine that). 14'x30" with something like 1.5" rocker and pretty soft stems.

Yup, a full volume tripping canoe is more than I want for a moving water day trip. I really like our MRC Guide/Freedom Solo, and if the trip involves shallow waters the Mohawk Odyssey 14.

(Alan can strip a new hull in the time it takes me to mow the lawn)
 
What kind of design changes in your new boat are you looking for compared to the Kite in the background other than the obvious tumblehome.

Good question. Biggest design change I was looking for was the designer himself. ;)

I wanted a symmetrical waterline. Just about everything I've ever paddled has been asymmetrical and I want to see how the other side lives. Also wanted something geared a little more towards moving water. My design has more rocker, more above waterline flare, and softer stems. I think sheer height is about the same. Mine has the same style of knuckled tumblehome but I restricted it more to the center of the canoe for more flare towards the stems.

The Kite looks to have gradual rocker starting in the center of the hull. Mine has relatively flat rocker until close to the stems where it sweeps up. I'm hoping this will still give me good maneuverability while keeping more volume below the waterline and maybe keep the hull from being blown sideways as much in the wind, kind of like a keel; but I don't really expect that to make a big difference, if at all.

Did you hand-loft that, or use a CAD program? If CAD, did you get any of the basic stats?

I use Delftship to draw up the designs and then export the stations to a CAD program (Rhino) to prepare them for printing. Mainly they need to be shrunk down to account for the strip thickness. I use another free program (Polycad) to test stability. Delftship gives me all sorts of resistance readings and coefficients, most of which don't mean much to me, but they make me feel important.

Usually I spend a lot of time trying to tweak hull resistance but for this canoe ultimate speed and efficiency weren't so important so I concentrated more on getting the hull shape and stability I wanted.

If I can remember I'll take some comparison pictures with the Kite and I can post up any hull stats you're interested in.

Alan
 
And the carbon performs poorly in compression.

I was going back through some old posts yesterday and came across the posts where I was coming up with the idea for carbon covered cedar gunwales. I'd laminated a piece of cedar with carbon and then broke it in the press at work. I'd completely forgotten how it failed until re-reading the post with your comment fresh in my mind. The compression side broke but the tension side held.

20150319_004 by Alan, on Flickr

What kind of design changes in your new boat are you looking for compared to the Kite in the background

I almost forgot to take pictures of the Kite and if I'd forgotten it would have been too late since AK_Brad was loading it up on his truck and driving away with it:

20170427_002 by Alan, on Flickr

Here are how the Kite stems are shaped:

20170427_001 by Alan, on Flickr

In comparison to mine:

20170425_002 by Alan, on Flickr

If anyone sees that Kite at the Missouri Ozarks Rendezvous tell it 'hi' for me and please ignore all the uglies from my first ever build. Hoping it has a happy new home. Sounds like rivers are badly flooded and Brad didn't know what exactly was going to happen down there. Hope it all goes well for everyone and that they safely get on (and off) the water.

Alan
 
I don't build boats and frankly don't read a lot of these boat building threads. But I have experience using lots of composite boats and can research.

As among S glass, Kevlar and carbon, Kevlar is by far the worst in compression. S glass is very good in compression, tension and elasticity, but is the heaviest. Carbon is the stiffest.


Kevlar also scuzzes up if cut and is hard to sand. Hence, I wouldn't want Kevlar as the outer layer of a boat hull both for compression and scuzzy-cuts reasons, and I don't really like it, unprotected, on the inside either. Kevlar, unlike glass and carbon, is subject to UV degradation.

Carbon is used as the outside layer by lots of top boat builders. Swift uses carbon on the outside under a clear gel coat, as did Bell. Swift will also use basalt, polyester or Innegra under a clear gel coat as the outside layer. Placid and Colden will use carbon on the outside without a gel coat -- AKA a so-called skin coat, using tinted resin -- but will usually gel coat the waterline patch. All these builders normally use Kevlar as the inside layer, and as interior partial layers between the outside and inside layers. Swift will put carbon as the inside layer upon request. Carbon makes the inside more scuzzy-resistant than Kevlar, but also makes it black unless the resin is tinted. Millbrook, the longest-lived maker of top whitewater racing canoes, still uses variants of the basic SK layup with tinted resin and without gel coat.

Hemlock uses a nicely balanced laminate: a thin S glass exterior with a Kevlar-carbon co-weave on the inside. I would prefer an epoxy resin to polyester for strength, but I don't think Dave Curtis or many builders like to work with epoxy. I think S glass on the outside takes and deflects bangs better than carbon on the outside. The greater weight of S glass versus carbon can be offset by using a lighter weight S glass fabric and minimal resin application. The Kevlar-carbon cofab gives a nice balance of stiffness, tension resistance and scuzzy resistance inside the canoe; and it also looks better to me than Kevlar or black carbon.

I have no idea whether any of this is relevant to the Solo 14, except if you're only going to use carbon and glass, with no Kevlar, I suppose you could put either on the outside or inside. It would be interesting to make some test patches of such a laminate and then bang them on different sides and bend them in different directions. See what happens in an actual test. Absent that, maybe put the easier to repair fabric on the outside. Oh, if you put glass on the outside, you see the wood, right?

And I keep wondering if there are rapids in Iowa.
 
Been waiting for the weather to warm up a bit so I can crank up the heat in the shop without burning a bunch of propane. It did so I put down 1 1/2 layers of 4oz glass and 3 fill coats. Probably one more fill coat on the s-glass stems and I'll call it good for now.

20170504_003 by Alan, on Flickr

20170504_002 by Alan, on Flickr

Alan
 
I know, I can be caught out in Left Field, but didn't say something about using the 15' of carbon fiber, on the outside ?

I know we change our minds ! I'd say this was a better change !

I see the Penobscot, waiting it's turn .

OK, now did the resin set, and how hot did you get the shop ?

Looks great !


Jim
 
Yep, changed my mind. Carbon will go on the inside.

Resin is doing good so far despite it being about 1 1/2 years old with a crust on top of the resin and then goofing up and mixing the first batch at 3:1 rather than 5:1. Was really relieved to walk into the shop this morning and find no tackiness.

I used Adtech 820 for the wetout coat and supposedly it needs to be over 80* to cure (I can confirm it doesn't cure at 65-70*). For the fill coats I'm using Adtech Probuild as it's quite thick. This isn't as temperature sensitive. I warmed the shop to 75* during the wetout and then this morning turned it up to 80* when I started doing the fill coats. I'll leave it there for a couple more days before backing it off.

Alan
 
And I keep wondering if there are rapids in Iowa.

In between the rows of corn and beans ! Ha !

The West Branch DesMoines, runs behind my shop. About two blocks upstream as a fish swims, is the best I can offer close by.
I'll try and get a pic or two tomorrow AM.

IMG_0442_zpsna452heu.jpg

Jim
 
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It's off the forms and the carbon is done on the inside. Very happy with the way the Adtech resin has been working in the warm shop. Nice long working time but it seems to cure quite quickly once it starts to kick. It gets harder overnight than the Raka resin.

The hull was still pretty flimsy after glassing the outside (5/32" strips) but it's very stiff now. Will have to bring the scale home to check weight tomorrow if I can remember.

20170510_002 by Alan, on Flickr

20170510_003 by Alan, on Flickr

20170510_004 by Alan, on Flickr

Alan
 
In between the rows of corn and beans ! Ha !

The West Branch DesMoines, runs behind my shop. About two blocks upstream as a fish swims, is the best I can offer close by.
I'll try and get a pic or two tomorrow AM.

Geeze Jim, up here we call that a boat wake eh.
 
hey Christy, you should stop complaining about the condition I leave our boat shop in, Alan makes ours look like better homes and gardens.
 
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