Self-learning to pole upstream - bow control and other tips?

[Steve in Idaho]

More about weight and hopping forward at the top of the ledge...
Hopping forward while topping out on a climb gets the stern out of the accelerated water quicker and releases you from its drag. But with an empty boat, you have to make this move really quick because the boat gets stalled before your feet are planted ahead. As mentioned above, added weight increases momentum when climbing. This is especially helpful during this hop-forward move. I'm not in the habit of adding weight when I'm day-tripping (might be rethinking that), but when I'm doing multi-day trips, I've always appreciated the weight for this reason. You want to make climbs easier when poling? Add weight.

 

[Steve]

Yup! Rockstar level! Nice long hold on that surf. I do the same as you described earlier where you pop up on top and then scoot forward to get the weight up past the drop. We are not doing those Harry Rock jumps over the yoke. I am not that brave (or in my case, stupid). Thanks for those.

 

[Tsuga8]

Very interesting discussion, thanks all. Lots to think about and practice. I'm not sure I'm likely to add weight for day outings, but I hope to do some poling on my Allagash trip this year, and maybe some others.

Thanks for sharing the videos, Steve - very cool to see the Coho. I wish Kaz still had the mold.

 

[lowangle al]

I'm not sure I'm likely to add weight for day outings,

I was always anti ballast, not wanting to carry any extra weight, but have done a 180 on this. Now I always take some weight. Even at just approximately 25 lbs it changes the way the the boat handles for the better. I'll even take it when tandem and place it in front of the stern thwart to lighten my bow. The closer you can get to a boats minimum optimal weight range the better it will handle.

 

[Tsuga8]

Well gents, yesterday was a real learning experience. @Sliding Focus and I got out on the local creek yesterday after work. Flows were much higher than I've ever tried to pole in, and boy howdy it's a whole different ballgame. The drop I usually struggle to get up because of low water absolutely blasted my bow and washed me downstream right quick the moment I came out of the eddy just below it. I tried the Rx Morningstar (finally took out the bow and stern seats this week, left the center for now) and the Rx Heron, and had similar trouble with both. I think I do like the Morningstar better - a little more weight, a little more length.

At the Maine Canoe Symposium they always recommend polers put a 5gal bucket of water in the bow to trim the boat, but that's on a lake. Understanding the advantages of a large canoe with a full tripping load, I thought a smaller (<16ft) boat would be better empty - the guys doing pole slalom seem to be in empty boats. But I'll have to start experimenting. The 5gal bucket filled with creek water would save hauling a lot of weight. I also wonder if, at my current skill level, I'm getting better results with the upstream end trimmed higher because my bow control is still lacking. Pinning the bow with ballast should be good in theory, but probably also reduces the time it takes for the current to knock you off your line, vs the current meeting the underside of the boat behind the stem?

 

[Tsuga8]

I was always anti ballast, not wanting to carry any extra weight, but have done a 180 on this. Now I always take some weight. Even at just approximately 25 lbs it changes the way the the boat handles for the better. I'll even take it when tandem and place it in front of the stern thwart to lighten my bow. The closer you can get to a boats minimum optimal weight range the better it will handle.

PS: this is most certainly the case on flat water. But I assume you were talking specifically about poling upstream?

 

[Tsuga8]

But I could be standing farther back with weight in the bow and hop forward from there at the top.

I was just going back to re-watch the videos and see what I could learn after yesterday, and re-read this. I've been conflating two variables: obviously one could add weight and maintain any angle of trim, depending on where the weight is placed. Going upstream on a section of flat but flowing water, trimming bow heavy seems to be the advantage, sort of like paddling into the wind. And I understand what you folks are saying about shifting weight forward as you crest the drop to get the hull in the slower water above the drop. But when you start climbing a drop where there's a major risk of the bow getting grabbed and spun, is it the extra weight that's beneficial (just sitting lower and/or more momentum)? Or still ideally trimming the bow down (assuming you won't hit a ledge)? Or is the ideal that you start bow high but trim down as you crest? (I'm not hopping any yokes either!). A side advantage to weighting the bow and standing further back would be standing in a narrower part of the boat where it's easier to push parallel to the keel line.

 

[lowangle al]

PS: this is most certainly the case on flat water. But I assume you were talking specifically about poling upstream?

I was referring to how ballast affects stability in all situations. The more stable I am the more I can lighten the bow and the more I can lean for better carving. Both of which will improve your poling.

The last sentence of your above post about getting more power by being further back in the boat is a big advantage. It applies to paddling as well as poling.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Standing farther back does make it easier to avoid introducing yaw while pushing hard, but also reduces your leverage for heeling. Sometimes it's an advantage, sometimes not.

Every drop is different, but the more ledge-like it is, the more it helps to get the bow up when attacking it. Going up a fast but gradual riffle, letting the bow rise slows you down and consequently kills your bow control. (This difference may be why it seems like we're contradicting) You can sometimes recover with aggressive heeling and a big push, but it's better to do your heeling to align with the current before starting into the drop. When I blow the approach, my recovery (attempt?) sometimes looks like I'm about to fall out of the boat - heeling hard and maybe even leaning over the downstream side with the pole planted.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

When I was first learning to pole, I tried to power my way up everything. That's a mistake for a couple of reasons. First - it wears you out and can cause an injury. Second - it can cause your bow to raise out of the water unnecessarily, which slows you down and increases effort.

Try easing into your drop and instead of a hard push, either "climb the pole" or take short stabs with easy pushes. Put more effort and attention into bow control than propulsion.

No drops here, but note how little effort I'm expending....

 

[Tsuga8]

Thanks, Steve, that's all helpful info. The last video looks more like the creek I was on last Sunday - shallow, gravel bottom, consistent current and gradient; drops were more riffles than ledges. I felt like I did pretty well there. My spot on Friday evening where I was really struggling is a deep main channel with slabs of bedrock, a ledge, a lot of volume, and very limited eddy size (about a boat length, too short to get any momentum while protected in the eddy).

A potential issue for me is my sense of what's really possible poling - at some point the combo of drop, current, and volume is too much for anyone to get up, but I have no idea where that line is. I'm signed up for some moving poling clinics this summer that should help. In the meantime, more time and experience on the water will undoubtedly move me forward. This discussion has been super helpful in terms of what I'm thinking about and experimenting with while I get more experience.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Yep. Slick rock slabs are always a problem. I have a few local spots where that has stopped my progress.

 

[RickR]

When traveling upstream I like bow light trim, how much depends on current strength. When re-entering the main stream from an eddy I find that if the ruddering stern crosses the eddy line first the bow automatically self aligns with the current.

 

[Tsuga8]

When traveling upstream I like bow light trim, how much depends on current strength. When re-entering the main stream from an eddy I find that if the ruddering stern crosses the eddy line first the bow automatically self aligns with the current.

Let me see if I understand correctly. Say you're facing upstream in an eddy on river right (so the shore is on your left). Is your pole on your left (shore) side, or on your right (towards the main current)? Assuming a straight reach with an eddyline parallel to the main current, how much angle does your boat have relevant to the current? Almost sounds like setting a ferry angle to come back into the eddy as opposed to towards the opposite bank?

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

When re-entering the main stream from an eddy I find that if the ruddering stern crosses the eddy line first the bow automatically self aligns with the current.

I'm a bit unclear, Rick, about how the stern crosses the eddy line before the bow when breaking out of an eddy, which would be quite unusual when using a paddle. Is breaking out of an eddy with a pole a different technique?

Say you're facing upstream in an eddy on river right (so the shore is on your left).

Tsuga, if Rick's been poling upstream, he may very well be in a mid-stream eddy rather than a bank eddy. But I'm not sure that makes a difference as to answering your question about his technique.

Overall, I'm still not clear whether one generally wants to be bow light or bow heavy when poling up or down a river, other than you want to be bow light when trying to ascend upstream over a ledge.

 

[Tsuga8]

Tsuga, if Rick's been poling upstream, he may very well be in a mid-stream eddy rather than a bank eddy. But I'm not sure that makes a difference as to answering your question about his technique.

Right and right. I just picked a single simple example to imagine, but yes I assume a mid-stream would serve as well.

 

[Tsuga8]

Overall, I'm still not clear whether one generally wants to be bow light or bow heavy when poling up or down a river

Seems like the answer is: "it depends". Thankfully when poling, trim is easily adjusted on the fly by means of hopping.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Overall, I'm still not clear whether one generally wants to be bow light or bow heavy when poling up or down a river

Seems like the answer is: "it depends".

I've only poled in flat water—lakes and swamps—and, if wind was not a factor, being somewhat bow light seemed obvious to me, so I could easily maneuver the bow direction and make sharp turns. Poling into strong wind, which I don't recall ever doing, I would obviously go bow heavy as with paddling into wind.

I also don't recall ever poling a river with significant current, but if I were going downstream slower than the current, by often snubbiing perhaps, I believe I'd want to be bow light, so that my stern would be pinned by the current and wouldn't weather-vane out of control. On the other hand, if I imagine poling upstream and assume no ledges or rocks but just smooth water, I'm not sure whether I'd rather be bow heavy or light. I may want to be in perfect trim and, as with a paddle, trust my technique to control the boat the way I want.

 

[Tsuga8]

Both Harry Rock and Garret Conover explain in their books that the advantage to being trimmed upstream end light in a current is that the current slides under the bottom of the hull, exerting minimal force on the sides. With the upstream stem in the water, any angle of the canoe to the current basically starts a ferry. When the current is powerful enough, this ferry action is very hard to stop once it starts, so better to prevent it from starting. Thus, according to that logic, the bow should be light going up and the stern should be light when snubbing. That's their logic as I understand it; but... obviously there are caveats as discussed above.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Both Harry Rock and Garret Conover explain in their books that the advantage to being trimmed upstream end light . . . . Thus, according to that logic, the bow should be light going up and the stern should be light when snubbing.

Well, if those two guys say that for solo poling, then that's the answer as far as I'm concerned, never having had personal experience poling in current. As a paddler, I rarely go slower than the current in a river except when back ferrying. In most tandem canoes, the stern is heavier than the bow, so in a back ferry the weight distribution would be opposite of that recommended by Rock/Conover for the solo poler.

That doesn't matter in a practical sense, and doesn't result in an out-of-control ferry, because even a lightweight bow paddler in a back ferrying tandem canoe can easily control the ferry angle, and so can a good stern paddler in a highly rockered whitewater hull. And, a centralized solo paddler in a highly rockered canoe can spin it around like a top in virtually any current situation without going out of, or to regain, control.

Poling is clearly different from fixed seat paddling in that it's much easier to move back and forth in the canoe to change, fine tune and optimize trim for different situations. Too bad I feel too old to experiment with a pole in swift current. I mean . . . you actually . . . have to . . . stand UP!