Wow, there's a lot of great information here... and great stories. I appreciate all the answers. Short line and carabiners sound like a really good plan. I will, of course, let you know how it goes. The trip won't be until late July, though. I am excited already.
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Happy Scream Day! 😱
Safely tying in gear, and storing lines
- Thread starter Pringles
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How does one fall out of a canoe and not pull the canoe/gunwale over? I get you can do this when entering or stepping out of the canoe - have done it. 
But I don't get how, when paddling on water, one can fall out of the canoe without tipping the boat over.
My favorite way to fill the canoe with water is to hit an unexpected boulder in current and the canoe rides up on the boulder and the upstream side goes down into the water. I've done this in ankle deep water when walking a boat upstream. Also when lining. I always tie everything in.
Erica
But I don't get how, when paddling on water, one can fall out of the canoe without tipping the boat over.
My favorite way to fill the canoe with water is to hit an unexpected boulder in current and the canoe rides up on the boulder and the upstream side goes down into the water. I've done this in ankle deep water
when walking a boat upstream. Also when lining. I always tie everything in.Erica
How does one fall out of a canoe and not pull the canoe/gunwale over? I get you can do this when entering or stepping out of the canoe - have done it.
But I don't get how, when paddling on water, one can fall out of the canoe without tipping the boat over.
Erica
This is how it happened to me. I was fishing with my son, I'm in the stern counter balancing him as he was close to one gunnel. He moves all the way to the opposite gunnel and the boat tips. I'm not sure if I tried to grab the gunnels or if I just didn't have time, but I remember thinking that if I let myself fall out it will prevent the boat from flipping. We were in a 16 foot white water stripper and I always felt the rear seat was too close to the end of the boat and contributed.
G
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How does one fall out of a canoe and not pull the canoe/gunwale over? I get you can do this when entering or stepping out of the canoe - have done it.
But I don't get how, when paddling on water, one can fall out of the canoe without tipping the boat over.
In a solo canoe I have managed that feat on more than one occasion. Multiple times with one especially ill suited solo canoe. Several steps are required to properly execute this maneuver:
Select a narrowish solo canoe with an elliptical bottom.
Sit on a high mounted seat rather than kneel.
Hit a barely submerged rock or cypress knee while paddling in current with one chine of the canoe. A steep broadside wave will do in a pinch, especially if the seated paddler is turned and looking sternwards at the time.
Do not brace.
To avoid overturning the hull en route to impending saturation do not grab the gunwale
Once the upper body is out over the edge swiftly exit the canoe headfirst, allowing the hull to return upright.
With practice this can be done even in flatwater shallows. Bonus points if little or no water enters the canoe.
There are other variations that neatly remove the paddler while allowing the canoe to remain upright, including the unexpected sweeper branch hanging out 2 feet above the water in fast current. In that variation it is traditional to mutter Oh crap seconds before exiting the canoe.
My video series Funstyle Ways To Wet Exit a Canoe is still in development.
I have always admired the whitewater tandem bow paddler bow jam/pole vault over the bow stem, myself.
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Easy to leave the boat with no water in it when poling. Stick the pole on a hard push. Retain grip on the pole. Rips you right out of the boat, as the canoe goes merrily along.
Took a swim out of my whitewater solo a couple weekends ago, and it only scooped up a little water. This canoe came to me with a Bob Foote Grand Canyon saddle, which I haven't gotten around to removing yet. Yes, I had drinks in the drink holders. No, they didn't fall out.
Carabiners....... I dislike them, unless they are lockers. Unlocked carabiners can too easily clip themselves into something they shouldn't in a spill (like your PFD straps). On flat water, maybe not an issue, but I won't use 'em anyway. I prefer web straps with fastex buckles. Rope can be used safely - but there are knots, and then there are knots. It pays to learn which knots are easy to tie and untie, and larger diameter is better.
Took a swim out of my whitewater solo a couple weekends ago, and it only scooped up a little water. This canoe came to me with a Bob Foote Grand Canyon saddle, which I haven't gotten around to removing yet. Yes, I had drinks in the drink holders. No, they didn't fall out.
Carabiners....... I dislike them, unless they are lockers. Unlocked carabiners can too easily clip themselves into something they shouldn't in a spill (like your PFD straps). On flat water, maybe not an issue, but I won't use 'em anyway. I prefer web straps with fastex buckles. Rope can be used safely - but there are knots, and then there are knots. It pays to learn which knots are easy to tie and untie, and larger diameter is better.
Next month I will for 8 days be training young trek leader guides who (they hope) will be hired to work for the summer by a BSA (or other youth group) resident camp in the Adirondacks. During the canoe rescue lesson we talk about whether to tie gear in or not on flat water. Of course personal safety is the first consideration. We do demonstrate flat water canoe over canoe rescue (as is required by BSA). I tell them to imagine what conditions would make that necessary in the first place (high wind, waves, and poor judgement of traveling in those conditions). Some insist they should tie gear in. I'm ok with tying small or expensive stuff and maybe a pack hip belt buckle around a thwart. But just imagine trying to untie wet poorly tied knots in a bobbing boat in waves. You can't empty a canoe of water or rescue it with heavy gear still tied in. When I have heard "But my backpack is heavy and will sink" at which point I have thrown my own heavy pack in the water to show that it it draws only an inch or two of water. Rescue self first, then worry about gear later. Unless you are on a monster huge wind swept lake (what are you doing out there in the first place?), you will be able to gather your gear later.
Falling out of a canoe is easy if you are seated in a narrow stern (or high seated solo) while moving along fairly quickly in mild current and turn your head to look behind without paying attention to body position. If your head wanders outside of the gunwale and the bow happens to swing in the current, out you will go. You may or may not grab the gunwale on the way out, resulting in dumping the boat over or not. Been there, done that.
I was paddling bow in a voyageur while race training on a lake a few years ago. Our very accomplished stern paddler rarely day dreamed so much to miss calling a regular periodically expected "hut". When after a couple of minutes had passed without switching sides, a glance to the rear revealed Franz flailing and waving arms in deep water a hundred yards or more behind. He had fallen out and no one noticed, which became the source of a joke for years to come.
Falling out of a canoe is easy if you are seated in a narrow stern (or high seated solo) while moving along fairly quickly in mild current and turn your head to look behind without paying attention to body position. If your head wanders outside of the gunwale and the bow happens to swing in the current, out you will go. You may or may not grab the gunwale on the way out, resulting in dumping the boat over or not. Been there, done that.
I was paddling bow in a voyageur while race training on a lake a few years ago. Our very accomplished stern paddler rarely day dreamed so much to miss calling a regular periodically expected "hut". When after a couple of minutes had passed without switching sides, a glance to the rear revealed Franz flailing and waving arms in deep water a hundred yards or more behind. He had fallen out and no one noticed, which became the source of a joke for years to come.
G
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Many, if not most, of my abrupt wet exits have been exactly that looking-behind scenario, leading group or family trips and wanting to look back to see how far spaced out the trailing canoes , or how folks came through that last tricky bit before I got to a wait and see eddy.
I have a lot of upper torso shoulders, neck and head to offset my below-gunwales physiology. Out past the gunwales and unprepared for a brace I am going glubglub.
That has led me towards a personal predilection in hull design. Shallow arch or shallow vee bottom, nothing elliptical or rounded. At least a 30 inch waterline. For tripping loads 32 inch wide with some tumblehome is better. No less than 14 feet for a day tripping canoe, 16 feet or more for a solo tripper. Decent depth and moderate rocker; I do not care if it is skegged.
And led to a couple simple hull compatibility tests.
With a light daytrip load can I turn my not very limber torso around to look 180 degrees behind me?
Can I retrieve a day gear bag from behind the solo seat, pick it up, swing it out over the gunwale and set it between my legs?
If a solo canoe passes those two tests I am good to go.
Well, falling asleep in your seat on a hot summer day after one beverage too many will certainly do it! With two other boats, tandems, behind me as witnesses I couldn't BS my way out of that. They said I weebled then I wobbled then I flopped right over. Never done that since!
Aah, the old weeble, wobble, wet-exit.
G
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Wellllll, there was that one occasion some years ago where a paddling friend offered me some Humbolt produce, appropriately called something like Train Wreck, during a muckle up.
Yeah. . . . .that was not a good idea.
I had bragged about the stability of the Sea Wimp/OT Sockeye to folks while I was paddling out, memorably saying I could fall over dead in this thing and no one would know.
Yeah. . . . . watch what you say. That was contra-indica-ated. The water was very refreshing.
I've always been a big fan of Bill Mason and his way of stowing gear with a short tether. Keeps your gear with the boat and make it way easier to empty the water from a swamped boat.
I like to lash everything in, so that in a capsize the equipment displaces water and provides bouyancy. In moving water you do not want your equipment to get away from you a long way from a take out. On the John Day River in Oregon in flood, a friend swamped his canoe in some big haystacks. His boat sunk to the bottom. A lot of his equipment floated away. We ferried over to rescue him and his boat and some of his stuff. We dried out the boat, pounded the fiberglass back into the shape of a boat and added a roll of duct tape. He got home okay. We were eddy shopping for two days and recovered the maority of his gear including an old Dutch oven from the 30s my great uncle gave me. I dragged the oven and the lid across the bottom of the River to retrieve it.
Be careful with lines. I like to keep them coiled under a bungee cord on the deck.
Be careful with lines. I like to keep them coiled under a bungee cord on the deck.
River paddling and lake paddling are very different scenarios. If you are lake paddling with a group where a boat-over-boat rescue is a possibility, I think leaving everything that won't sink loose is probably best. That offers the chance for a quick boat-over-boat rescue and reentry, after which floating gear can usually be recovered.
River paddling is very different. I would never tether gear to the boat in such a way that it can come out of the hull and trail in the water. That is a set up for the gear or line snagging on rocks or wood which can cause the boat to hang up, sometimes in very inopportune locations. In a completely unobstructed river without obstacles and water deep enough that gear or lines can't snag on bottom rocks, it might be OK.
For river tripping, I concentrate gear into packs and/or barrels and secure them inside the hull using a combination of 3mm diameter nylon accessory cord and a 1" webbing keeper strap. The accessory cord is threaded through loop eyes secured to the underside of the gunwales. On wood gunwaled boats, where I do not want to drill holes into the wood, small pairs of holes can be drilled through the hull just below the gunwales, and small loops of cord can be used to thread the cordage through. The keeper strap runs down the centerline and is secured to an anchor on the hull bottom using a quick release Fastex side buckle.
If your gear is concentrated in a few packs, it really does not take much time to untie one end of the lacing and loosen it sufficiently to pull the packs or barrels out. You don't have to undo the whole thing.
For painters, I secure them under a double shock cord on the deck plates. Painters are tied onto grab loops that run through the hull at the stems above the water line. If there are only small deck plates, I secure the painters looped back and forward under the accessory cord that retains the gear. This is done in such a way that only a short length of the painter can be pulled free, or the entire length can be pulled out at any time.
If you find yourself swimming in current with a capsized canoe full of gear, you will need some way to hold onto it. What is more, you will also need to hold onto a paddle, and would like to have one hand free to swim. It is very difficult to hold onto a canoe by a grab loop and hold a paddle in the same hand. It is much easier to hold a paddle and a length of painter in one hand. A length of painter also makes it possible to get far enough from the canoe to kick effectively with your feet while swimming. Once you reach the shallow water at the bank or an eddy, you can use the painter to pull the canoe in.
It is usually possible to empty a fully swamped canoe with gear tied in so long as you can stand in the water, especially if you have a helper. The key is to turn the boat over in the water to an inverted position before trying to lift it. Unless the boat and the contained gear are too heavy for two people to lift briefly clear of the water, the partners at either end should be able to slowly lift the canoe up out of the water allowing the water to drain as they do so. As soon as it is clear of the surface the boat can be easily flipped.
River paddling is very different. I would never tether gear to the boat in such a way that it can come out of the hull and trail in the water. That is a set up for the gear or line snagging on rocks or wood which can cause the boat to hang up, sometimes in very inopportune locations. In a completely unobstructed river without obstacles and water deep enough that gear or lines can't snag on bottom rocks, it might be OK.
For river tripping, I concentrate gear into packs and/or barrels and secure them inside the hull using a combination of 3mm diameter nylon accessory cord and a 1" webbing keeper strap. The accessory cord is threaded through loop eyes secured to the underside of the gunwales. On wood gunwaled boats, where I do not want to drill holes into the wood, small pairs of holes can be drilled through the hull just below the gunwales, and small loops of cord can be used to thread the cordage through. The keeper strap runs down the centerline and is secured to an anchor on the hull bottom using a quick release Fastex side buckle.
If your gear is concentrated in a few packs, it really does not take much time to untie one end of the lacing and loosen it sufficiently to pull the packs or barrels out. You don't have to undo the whole thing.
For painters, I secure them under a double shock cord on the deck plates. Painters are tied onto grab loops that run through the hull at the stems above the water line. If there are only small deck plates, I secure the painters looped back and forward under the accessory cord that retains the gear. This is done in such a way that only a short length of the painter can be pulled free, or the entire length can be pulled out at any time.
If you find yourself swimming in current with a capsized canoe full of gear, you will need some way to hold onto it. What is more, you will also need to hold onto a paddle, and would like to have one hand free to swim. It is very difficult to hold onto a canoe by a grab loop and hold a paddle in the same hand. It is much easier to hold a paddle and a length of painter in one hand. A length of painter also makes it possible to get far enough from the canoe to kick effectively with your feet while swimming. Once you reach the shallow water at the bank or an eddy, you can use the painter to pull the canoe in.
It is usually possible to empty a fully swamped canoe with gear tied in so long as you can stand in the water, especially if you have a helper. The key is to turn the boat over in the water to an inverted position before trying to lift it. Unless the boat and the contained gear are too heavy for two people to lift briefly clear of the water, the partners at either end should be able to slowly lift the canoe up out of the water allowing the water to drain as they do so. As soon as it is clear of the surface the boat can be easily flipped.
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I have been reluctant to respond to this topic, for fear of being reprimanded, or accused of just being plain wrong. But what the heck. Kathleen and I never tie our gear into the boat, believing that it is unnecessary. You see, we always travel with a spray cover, which secures everything. Once, when Carey and I were tracking up a class III rapid on the Winter River in the Northwest Territories, the canoe overturned. I belayed it into shore, and we turned it upright. We unsnapped the spray cover, and began lifting out the gear. Nothing was lost. Not even our tea mugs, which were floating free in the bottom of the canoe. I know other paddlers who share this approach.
Because there is no slack or loose rope with this method, we never have to worry about becoming entangled during a capsize. Fortunately, or should I say because of our experience and judgement, Kathleen and I have never capsized on a wilderness trip, and we routinely paddle class III, even when we are all alone. Foolish? Some would say so. But then, they are not us. If we did happen to capsize, as long as we held onto our boat, I believe that we and our gear would have a joyous reunion on shore.
So, unleash the hounds!
Because there is no slack or loose rope with this method, we never have to worry about becoming entangled during a capsize. Fortunately, or should I say because of our experience and judgement, Kathleen and I have never capsized on a wilderness trip, and we routinely paddle class III, even when we are all alone. Foolish? Some would say so. But then, they are not us. If we did happen to capsize, as long as we held onto our boat, I believe that we and our gear would have a joyous reunion on shore.
So, unleash the hounds!
When I used a full spray cover I never tied anything in either except for small items located in the "cockpit" area. These days I no longer use covers but I have flotation cages which when tripping are filled with gear. These effectively do the same job of restraint as the decks did. I do carry one large dry bag directly in from of me that is not within the cages so it is tied tight to d-rings.
In my early days I did the tether thing, for the reasons Pblanc mentioned I gave up on that practice although it worked back in the day when I might dump in rather benign situations.
In my early days I did the tether thing, for the reasons Pblanc mentioned I gave up on that practice although it worked back in the day when I might dump in rather benign situations.
I've been involved in far too many "yard sales" to leave things to chance! On a short flatwater hop across a small lake or calm river I may not tie in, but everything goes in a pack, except the map case, gps, and water bottle which are strapped to my kneeling thwart, but anything more than flat water- moving water, big waves, or wind I strap the waist straps of my packs to the nearest attachment point. If there's no attached strap I can use like on a drybag, bailer, or throw bag I'll add a 1 1/2'- 2' cord with a super cheap dollar store carabiner to it, that way in case it becomes tangled, a good tug will bend or snap the "beener" and I'm free.
Even when I use my little 2hp kicker ( nod to my increasing age and decreasing stamina) I strap an inflated trailer tube under the seat and attach the lanyard to the stern plate- it displaces the weight and keeps the motor with the canoe, and not on the bottom to pi** out gas and oil for months to come!
Even when I use my little 2hp kicker ( nod to my increasing age and decreasing stamina) I strap an inflated trailer tube under the seat and attach the lanyard to the stern plate- it displaces the weight and keeps the motor with the canoe, and not on the bottom to pi** out gas and oil for months to come!
So I read this whole thread and the answer is . . . . . . . . ?
Well, I'll just summarize my own answers that I've followed for 40 years.
1. No matter what kind of water, tie in everything that can sink.
2. In whitewater or any swift current, tie in everything securely to the boat. No equipment on lines dragging through the water.
3. In quiet waters on windless days it may not matter much, but I still tie everything in, especially my main two main packs because they are buoyant. However, some draglines for smaller things are okay.
In all those years, I have never seen a boat-over-boat rescue executed or even attempted. Getting people and then boats to shore is what you do on a river. On a lake, a companion boat and swimmers can empty a canoe sufficiently without boat-over-boat, which is nigh impossible anyway if boats are full of gear. If solo, as I usually am, I'm not anymore capable of climbing back into my narrow solo boat, so I have to get it to shore, which means I will rarely go far from shore. Fortunately, I have never dumped in flat water.
Here's my current system with my Hemlock SRT:
You can see my painters of 1/4" floating rope, about 12'-15' long, loosely coiled under deck bungees. Easy to pull out when landing or if the boat were capsized.
The blue bag in the stern is my nine lb. chair, which is a big sinkable. Tied in at both ends, one end to a D-ring on the floor.
In the bow of the boat is another big sinkable, a canoe cart, which I actually rarely take on a trip. Tied in to a D-ring on the floor with its cam straps.
You can see my main pack, a Duluth (with a waterproof liner bag inside), is jammed under and attached to the thwart with one of its leather flap straps, easily releasable with one tug. Unseen under the map is my smaller waterproof day bag, also tied in. I want these two bags to be tied into the boat and not on draglines because, in a capsize, I want the packs to stay in the canoe to act as upward flotation to offset the sinking weight of the heavy chair and cart. In other words, I want the packs to assist the end flotation tanks.
Small dangling things are clipped to the front thwart or the inwale slots with cord and minibiners: sponge, towel, GPS, map case. Spare paddle is attached to thwart with a bungee and jammed into the bow.
That's everything for a trip of of two days or two weeks. Except my Panama straw hat seems to be under my adjustable kneeling bucket seat. It will attach to my head with a long leather chin strap with a slider knot. I can slide the knot under my chin if the wind picks up. Or, if I want some sun, I can slide the knot down to the end of the chin strap and flip my hat onto my back as Roy Rogers and Dale Evans used to do. Glasses are secured with a fabric Croakie to match my hatband.
Well, I'll just summarize my own answers that I've followed for 40 years.
1. No matter what kind of water, tie in everything that can sink.
2. In whitewater or any swift current, tie in everything securely to the boat. No equipment on lines dragging through the water.
3. In quiet waters on windless days it may not matter much, but I still tie everything in, especially my main two main packs because they are buoyant. However, some draglines for smaller things are okay.
In all those years, I have never seen a boat-over-boat rescue executed or even attempted. Getting people and then boats to shore is what you do on a river. On a lake, a companion boat and swimmers can empty a canoe sufficiently without boat-over-boat, which is nigh impossible anyway if boats are full of gear. If solo, as I usually am, I'm not anymore capable of climbing back into my narrow solo boat, so I have to get it to shore, which means I will rarely go far from shore. Fortunately, I have never dumped in flat water.
Here's my current system with my Hemlock SRT:
You can see my painters of 1/4" floating rope, about 12'-15' long, loosely coiled under deck bungees. Easy to pull out when landing or if the boat were capsized.
The blue bag in the stern is my nine lb. chair, which is a big sinkable. Tied in at both ends, one end to a D-ring on the floor.
In the bow of the boat is another big sinkable, a canoe cart, which I actually rarely take on a trip. Tied in to a D-ring on the floor with its cam straps.
You can see my main pack, a Duluth (with a waterproof liner bag inside), is jammed under and attached to the thwart with one of its leather flap straps, easily releasable with one tug. Unseen under the map is my smaller waterproof day bag, also tied in. I want these two bags to be tied into the boat and not on draglines because, in a capsize, I want the packs to stay in the canoe to act as upward flotation to offset the sinking weight of the heavy chair and cart. In other words, I want the packs to assist the end flotation tanks.
Small dangling things are clipped to the front thwart or the inwale slots with cord and minibiners: sponge, towel, GPS, map case. Spare paddle is attached to thwart with a bungee and jammed into the bow.
That's everything for a trip of of two days or two weeks. Except my Panama straw hat seems to be under my adjustable kneeling bucket seat. It will attach to my head with a long leather chin strap with a slider knot. I can slide the knot under my chin if the wind picks up. Or, if I want some sun, I can slide the knot down to the end of the chin strap and flip my hat onto my back as Roy Rogers and Dale Evans used to do. Glasses are secured with a fabric Croakie to match my hatband.
I have done boat over boat rescues and side to side "curl" rescues many times. I have used the curl method to empty a boat and get an individual back into it in the middle of a rapid, and the same was once done for me. I have done boat over boat rescues in mid river eddies and bank eddies in the middle of rapids.
On many rivers you may be able to get the swimmer and boat to the shore, but the bank may be too steep, muddy, or overgrown to allow the paddler to enter from dry land. Emptying the boat with a boat over boat technique, and providing an assisted reentry for the paddler is often the best technique.
Very common for a boat to end up on one side of a rapid on a river, and the paddler upstream. Or the swimmer might get out well upstream of where the boat is eventually gotten out of the current. The paddler may then be faced with a sometimes long and awkward walk to get back to the boat, or may need to be ferried across the river. Often the easiest course of action is to quickly empty the boat with a boat over boat technique, then attach on end of the empty boat to a quick release tether on a Type V pfd and either eddy hop the boat upstream or ferry it across to the owner.
Last time I used a boat over boat rescue and assisted reentry for a swimmer in a bank eddy was on the upper Buffalo River this spring.
On many rivers you may be able to get the swimmer and boat to the shore, but the bank may be too steep, muddy, or overgrown to allow the paddler to enter from dry land. Emptying the boat with a boat over boat technique, and providing an assisted reentry for the paddler is often the best technique.
Very common for a boat to end up on one side of a rapid on a river, and the paddler upstream. Or the swimmer might get out well upstream of where the boat is eventually gotten out of the current. The paddler may then be faced with a sometimes long and awkward walk to get back to the boat, or may need to be ferried across the river. Often the easiest course of action is to quickly empty the boat with a boat over boat technique, then attach on end of the empty boat to a quick release tether on a Type V pfd and either eddy hop the boat upstream or ferry it across to the owner.
Last time I used a boat over boat rescue and assisted reentry for a swimmer in a bank eddy was on the upper Buffalo River this spring.
With tripping loads in both canoes?
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