Jimmy is a road trip to St John in your future? That Osprey is way less than the Next!
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Old Town "Next"
- Thread starter Jimmy The Jet
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Trying to plan something now. I spoke with the guy today, and the Osprey seems like a deal. He threw a wrench into things though... He's got a Wenonah Voyageur (17.5') in good shape for the same price. It's way more boat than I had wanted, but the extra length comes at the cost of maneuverability only, cuz it'sabout 35 lbs, so lighter than the Osprey. Shoot, I could get them both for the price of a new Esquif Echo... Wish I had that sort of money!! LOL. Well, I hope he still has them when I can get there. With any luck, I'll have a new to me boat soon enough...
Unless you want to only do pretty much flat water paddling, I would choose the Osprey over the Voyager. The Osprey is a much more versatile boat. It paddles well sitting or kneeling, is pretty efficient for moving along at a nice cruising pace on flat water, yet has enough rocker to remain reasonably maneuverable in moving water.
The Voyager is a neat boat for flat water paddling but its very long length combined with a fair bit of depth presents a lot of free board for wind to catch. It is no doubt faster at top speed than the Osprey, but much less maneuverable due to its long length and lack of rocker. It is a hard-tracking, go straight, go fast type of boat.
I have not paddled the Voyager a lot, but I have noted, as have others, that this boat can be difficult to control in strong winds. The boat will sometimes lock on to a side wind and start skating laterally across the water. With around 7 feet or so of boat sticking out in front of your feet and behind your seat, it can be difficult to get either end to want to turn into the wind without considerable effort. It seems to do better for larger paddlers or when loaded in this regard. The "bubble sided" tumblehome of Wenonah canoes like the Voyager results in a rather abrupt cessation of secondary stability when the canoe is heeled. The Osprey is much more predictable in this regard.
Because of its length and depth the Voyager will carry quite a load, but because of its relatively narrow gunwale width, you can be limited in what packs or barrels you carry, or at least how you orient them. I don't know if you plan to do much portaging through densely wooded areas, but maneuvering a boat longer than 17 feet through the trees can sometimes be a pain.
The Voyager is a neat boat for flat water paddling but its very long length combined with a fair bit of depth presents a lot of free board for wind to catch. It is no doubt faster at top speed than the Osprey, but much less maneuverable due to its long length and lack of rocker. It is a hard-tracking, go straight, go fast type of boat.
I have not paddled the Voyager a lot, but I have noted, as have others, that this boat can be difficult to control in strong winds. The boat will sometimes lock on to a side wind and start skating laterally across the water. With around 7 feet or so of boat sticking out in front of your feet and behind your seat, it can be difficult to get either end to want to turn into the wind without considerable effort. It seems to do better for larger paddlers or when loaded in this regard. The "bubble sided" tumblehome of Wenonah canoes like the Voyager results in a rather abrupt cessation of secondary stability when the canoe is heeled. The Osprey is much more predictable in this regard.
Because of its length and depth the Voyager will carry quite a load, but because of its relatively narrow gunwale width, you can be limited in what packs or barrels you carry, or at least how you orient them. I don't know if you plan to do much portaging through densely wooded areas, but maneuvering a boat longer than 17 feet through the trees can sometimes be a pain.
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The wind performance is what concerned me the most. Not a day tripper... But probably pretty good for the days when I get to carry the dog, the cooler, and the big family tent so Momma and the kids can have a nice light boat to paddle.. LOL.
I've portaged quite a lot with large tandems, so that's not new, but you're right, it can be a pain. Nice and light though. I agree that the Osprey would be much more versatile. Unless the Osprey was in poor shape, I'll probably end up with that. But still, the big cruiser is tempting.
I've portaged quite a lot with large tandems, so that's not new, but you're right, it can be a pain. Nice and light though. I agree that the Osprey would be much more versatile. Unless the Osprey was in poor shape, I'll probably end up with that. But still, the big cruiser is tempting.
Resurrecting an old thread as an actual owner of this boat...
I'm happy to report that speculation about the relative discomfort of this seat is wholly unfounded. There are certainly some faults with this boat. The comfort of the seat is not one of them. This is a ridiculously comfortable seat.
The angle of the backrest is adjustable via straps, though probably a bit awkward to adjust while you're floating.
The position of the seat relative to the center of the canoe is adjustable while you're sitting in the boat. It's on rails. You loosen up two knobs, slide forward or backward to trim out your weight distribution, then tighten the knobs again.
The whole seat folds, front disconnects from the rails in a few seconds via pins (secured to the boat w/ wire), and then folds back out of the way so you can kneel if you prefer. I'm not a kneeler, so I can't comment on the comfort or practicality of this.
I agree strongly with this. I have yet to weigh the boat, but it feels like close to 60 pounds. Ridiculously heavy for its size. Without any kind of portage yoke, moving it around can be painful. "Just shoulder it like a kayak"... uh, yeah, except that very hard, very right-angled gunnel is digging ~60 pounds into a square inch of your shoulder. If you're going to do this, you're going to want some padding.
I'm inclined to agree with this speculation. Not much of the boat rides up above the waterline. I haven't experienced being swamped yet, but it's likely inevitable as my experience with it grows and I get it out on rivers. I've only had it in a light chop and it did stay dry, FWIW.
There were some "save your money and get a _____" type comments. But it's worth pointing out: I was out the door with my Next for about $925, which included tax. I could have three Nexts for about the price of one Swift solo canoe (and don't forget freight, since there is no one within 100 miles that sells these things). Old Town is filling a niche here. I knew I was getting a slow, heavy pig of a boat. But I was getting it pretty cheap. The composite boat can come later, but there is nowhere around here that sells them, so the prospect of buying one isn't as simple as driving to the local outfitter. Even the rental fleets are OT and Mad River plastic boats.
Some comments like "OT's claims are absurd." Also agreed. They clearly tried some very new marketing concepts with this product and a lot of it backfired under any kind of scrutiny. Note that their marketing blitz ended almost as quickly as it began; where is the sustained campaign for selling this boat? It's gone. They've moved on to the SOT kayaks.
Where are they made? Mine says it was made in the USA.
There's been a little talk about this over in another thread, but I wanted to get my first-hand comments in here since this thread comes up high in google searches for info about this boat.
I'm happy to report that speculation about the relative discomfort of this seat is wholly unfounded. There are certainly some faults with this boat. The comfort of the seat is not one of them. This is a ridiculously comfortable seat.
The angle of the backrest is adjustable via straps, though probably a bit awkward to adjust while you're floating.
The position of the seat relative to the center of the canoe is adjustable while you're sitting in the boat. It's on rails. You loosen up two knobs, slide forward or backward to trim out your weight distribution, then tighten the knobs again.
The whole seat folds, front disconnects from the rails in a few seconds via pins (secured to the boat w/ wire), and then folds back out of the way so you can kneel if you prefer. I'm not a kneeler, so I can't comment on the comfort or practicality of this.
I agree strongly with this. I have yet to weigh the boat, but it feels like close to 60 pounds. Ridiculously heavy for its size. Without any kind of portage yoke, moving it around can be painful. "Just shoulder it like a kayak"... uh, yeah, except that very hard, very right-angled gunnel is digging ~60 pounds into a square inch of your shoulder. If you're going to do this, you're going to want some padding.
I'm inclined to agree with this speculation. Not much of the boat rides up above the waterline. I haven't experienced being swamped yet, but it's likely inevitable as my experience with it grows and I get it out on rivers. I've only had it in a light chop and it did stay dry, FWIW.
There were some "save your money and get a _____" type comments. But it's worth pointing out: I was out the door with my Next for about $925, which included tax. I could have three Nexts for about the price of one Swift solo canoe (and don't forget freight, since there is no one within 100 miles that sells these things). Old Town is filling a niche here. I knew I was getting a slow, heavy pig of a boat. But I was getting it pretty cheap. The composite boat can come later, but there is nowhere around here that sells them, so the prospect of buying one isn't as simple as driving to the local outfitter. Even the rental fleets are OT and Mad River plastic boats.
Some comments like "OT's claims are absurd." Also agreed. They clearly tried some very new marketing concepts with this product and a lot of it backfired under any kind of scrutiny. Note that their marketing blitz ended almost as quickly as it began; where is the sustained campaign for selling this boat? It's gone. They've moved on to the SOT kayaks.
Where are they made? Mine says it was made in the USA.
There's been a little talk about this over in another thread, but I wanted to get my first-hand comments in here since this thread comes up high in google searches for info about this boat.
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The peanut gallery speculation about the seat discomfort may have been based largely on the tall, rigid seatback. Such high, stiff-framed seat backs are often uncomfortable in torso rotation. If you find that not to be the case with the Next chalk it up to speculation being less valuable than actual experience.
Seat backs or back bands are one of those things where paddler preference runs widely different. Some people can’t stand (sit) them in any guise. Some folks like the GTI Sitbacker, a product that I found truly awful in oh so many ways.
With a blown disc I am soon uncomfortable with no lower back support, and the Surf to Summit back band is my go-to solution. Plus as a sitter I much prefer being able to “lock in” with my feet pressed against a foot brace combined with a back band keeping me from sliding too far off the back of the seat, while still allowing for torso rotation.
Even the 18 lb Rushton was awkward to carry in that guise. It’s not just the weight; it is physiologically ungainly and unbalanced to carry things in that manner, and more so with something 13 feet long.
Two possible easy solutions.
I use a strap yoke, like the ones Mohawk sells, on nearly all of my solo or soloized canoes. It is always there, rolled up out of the way under the inwale when not in use, and takes only seconds to clip together. A clamp-on yoke would be far better for any long or arduous carry, but from roof racks to water the strap yoke is all I need, even with heavier RX canoes.
The Chinese-made fastex buckle that Mohawk provides is too fragile crap for use with a weighty hull (I have broken a few), so I now use two large (2 inch) D-rings and simply weave the webbing through. That hasn’t failed even with 70+ lb boats.
Note on using double D-rings as strap yoke connectors. It is critical to leave a little slack in the webbing and not pull it fully taut, otherwise getting the too tightened webbing unfastened from between the D’s is a PITA. See also wet nylon webbing shrinking when it dries. I thought I was going to have cut the webbing a few times before I learned to leave some slack.
For an over the shoulder gunwale carry 60 lbs is a bit much, but in a pinch some foam cushion would help. I have knee bumpers on all our canoes, solo and tandem, simple chunks of minicel contact cemented under the inwales to cushion my knees instead of bracing against a hard inwale.
If you find the balance point on the Next a knee bumper could extend up to that shoulder carry point, and minicel is about as weightless as outfitting gets.
Yeah, OK, I’m a delicate flower. I like lots of cushion comfort; back band, knee bumpers, padded foot brace, heel pads and a Therma-rest seat pad for my butt. That mostly deflated pad air shapes as butt contoured as a tractor seat, and I can let a little air out a few times to change pressure points before it is fully flat.
If I am going to spend hours at a time in the canoe there’s no reason it can’t be the most comfortable seat in the house.
About your coming bike-free canoe shop, a couple things in the shop that I have found very handy.
Starting with a large J-hook screwed into a ceiling joist. Attached to that hook is a Taylor hanging scale for weighing boats.
http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/pr...reeShipStore&gclid=CKPxosKqnNECFYlWDQodwPwA3g
That is a Robin idea and I really wish I had had one in the shop years ago.
To weigh a boat I run a long cam strap around the hull until I find the balance point and move the sawhorses out until the boat teeters balanced on the strap. Hey, look, two birds with one stone, I also just found the exact balance point, might as well mark that on the hull. Marking that balance point also makes it easier if I weigh a boat again after outfitting or repairs.
How about the tale of the scale Next weigh in? Inquiring minds want to know.
Note that a backrest only works with a footbrace or pegs ( which the OT Next does have)( its the wrapped thingy on the left)
I don't remember the maker of the backband.. I have one in my RapidFIre.. Its a far cry from a Next seat for height and is quite comfy for me.
I don't remember the maker of the backband.. I have one in my RapidFIre.. Its a far cry from a Next seat for height and is quite comfy for me.
Great info. Definitely some good outfitting considerations here.
I'm meaning to take the bathroom scale out to the workshop and weigh the Next. I suspect it's more than the advertised 59 pounds. But by how much?
I'm meaning to take the bathroom scale out to the workshop and weigh the Next. I suspect it's more than the advertised 59 pounds. But by how much?
I was out scale shopping yesterday but came up empty handed, no TSC's around here in farm country, go figure. I need a scale to handle 150 pounds though so we can weight these bigger boats we are getting now. Picking up this Y-stern and jumping on the digital bathroom scale within 5 seconds ain't happening so I'm looking for a old school mechanical scale.
I just weighed my Old Town Next using a bathroom scale... I weighed myself without it, and then picked it up and weighed myself again. I did this three times on three different spots on the floor just to be sure of the results (which were consistent).
My Old Town Next weighs... 64 pounds!!! (Advertised weight is 59 pounds.)
Your Mileage May Vary.
My Old Town Next weighs... 64 pounds!!! (Advertised weight is 59 pounds.)
Your Mileage May Vary.
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Ow
I thought my Raven at 65 lbs and 15 feet 4 in was a slug!
I thought my Raven at 65 lbs and 15 feet 4 in was a slug!
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The Rapidfire I paddled had a factory rigged Surf to Summit back band. That, and other folks I knew using them, was enough to convince me.
Me too. I realized that 70lbs max wasn’t going to cut it, the big freighter started at 105 unoutfitted, so the hanging Taylor goes to 280lbs. I wish there was one that went more like 120lbs +\-.
I expect there must be hanging scales that hunter’s use for large game.
I am not surprised. Poly boats often had that heavy oddity, and depending on the accuracy of your bathroom scale. . . .
I think OT spec’ed 59 lbs in later promo weights. Supposing the listed weights were, if honestly presented, an average of hull weights for that model maybe some lucky duck has one of the 54lb Nexts.
My bathroom scale original instructions had a caveat that if you move it, allow it to rest awhile before using since it will not read accurately. Mine being the digital variety.
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Guest
About weighing boats.
I am unsurprised that the Next came in a few pounds overweight, although 5 lbs heavy is not just a few, it is (check my math), near 8 percent cited overweight?
If that extra 5 lbs is in hull plastic (OT must know the exact weight of the seat and foot peg outfitting) it could be some bombproof poly. See 25 year old OT UberPack still going strong at 45 lbs.
To me that number becomes more important when paying high dollar for low weight. Dropping 3K for a kev/carbon canoe I would want to verify that it really was 29 lbs, not a few pounds heavier, enough to have moved me to a more durable lay up or less expensive option.
Of course if I was dropping that kind of cash on a new composite hull I’d want to order some custom seat and thwart placement, maybe an additional thwart for barrel trapping, all of which would negate any specified model weight
Buying mostly used boats I’m not haggling about weight.
Since I have hung a scale in the shop I do weigh boats when working on them, before and after. Soloizing or modernizing a canoe often drops pounds, and re-outfitting adds some back. It’s nice to know where I was starting and ending.
I am unsurprised that the Next came in a few pounds overweight, although 5 lbs heavy is not just a few, it is (check my math), near 8 percent cited overweight?
If that extra 5 lbs is in hull plastic (OT must know the exact weight of the seat and foot peg outfitting) it could be some bombproof poly. See 25 year old OT UberPack still going strong at 45 lbs.
To me that number becomes more important when paying high dollar for low weight. Dropping 3K for a kev/carbon canoe I would want to verify that it really was 29 lbs, not a few pounds heavier, enough to have moved me to a more durable lay up or less expensive option.
Of course if I was dropping that kind of cash on a new composite hull I’d want to order some custom seat and thwart placement, maybe an additional thwart for barrel trapping, all of which would negate any specified model weight
Buying mostly used boats I’m not haggling about weight.
Since I have hung a scale in the shop I do weigh boats when working on them, before and after. Soloizing or modernizing a canoe often drops pounds, and re-outfitting adds some back. It’s nice to know where I was starting and ending.
Its just about impossible to get exactly the same weight each time. Ten perecent variance is said to be normal. Temperature, humidity and the weight of the current roll of fabric being used. all have a bearing on final weight before outfitting.
Not having a hissy fit cause my RapidFire is 23 lbs instead of 22. Of course you get custom seat and thwart placement and I got an extra thwart after the boat was weighed.
Expensive doesn't always mean light. My Dragon Fly has a lot of extra layers of fabric and came in at 38 lbs. Its meant for whitewater.
Not having a hissy fit cause my RapidFire is 23 lbs instead of 22. Of course you get custom seat and thwart placement and I got an extra thwart after the boat was weighed.
Expensive doesn't always mean light. My Dragon Fly has a lot of extra layers of fabric and came in at 38 lbs. Its meant for whitewater.
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No, but
One pound overweight wouldn’t cause buyer’s remorse, but 10% overweight and a 30 lb carbon hull becomes a 33 lb kevlar canoe for hundreds less.
Getting down to the skinny end of the weight scale those pounds saved get pricier spent, like $100 a pound.
I don't know.. I honestly don't know. I don't deal in mass produced boats.. My boats all have a range that is custom for what I want..If I wanted my Loon Works wood canvas canoe beefed up it would be heavier and cost more( actually we did and it did.. You dont rotomold walking ribs in.. They are added individually and require two people for the painful clinching process).. You are really paying for artisan time and I am not afraid to support an artisan builder as I know my boat will last forever.. Material cost is really only part of the equation. How and where fabrics were used is more important.
That Dragonfly is overweight as it was not Kevlar or Carbon only but a combination of three materials that have proven to be a good combo.. FIberglass is in there as the third component
Weight can vary with material.. The overall cost of a high end canoe is caused by... human labor.. Poor Colden Canoe owner pays himself not enough to have his own Colden Canoe.
Weight and price are usually inverse but labor costs for a rotomolded hull and a hand laid hull are vastly different and adding more layers can add to the cost
I've had this boat a little while now and thought it worth an update. Especially since this thread comes up high in some search results.
My kids like it. They don't like canoes. They don't like single bladed paddling. But they love kayaking. And they love their dogs.
The Next is a game changer for that combination. We've had 2 dogs in the Next at once, plus my teenage kid paddling. She loves it. The dogs love it. That never really worked well with the kayak in our fleet.
That leaves me in my big Old Town Camper 16, a Royalex boat... which is just a wee bit lighter than the Next. And has tons of room for my canine paddling buddy. They don't make this boat anymore (because they don't make Royalex anymore). I'm upgrading once I get the $$ together, quite likely to a Placid Boatworks boat. I'll keep the Next around for the kids.
My kids like it. They don't like canoes. They don't like single bladed paddling. But they love kayaking. And they love their dogs.
The Next is a game changer for that combination. We've had 2 dogs in the Next at once, plus my teenage kid paddling. She loves it. The dogs love it. That never really worked well with the kayak in our fleet.
That leaves me in my big Old Town Camper 16, a Royalex boat... which is just a wee bit lighter than the Next. And has tons of room for my canine paddling buddy. They don't make this boat anymore (because they don't make Royalex anymore). I'm upgrading once I get the $$ together, quite likely to a Placid Boatworks boat. I'll keep the Next around for the kids.
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