Long time lurker, finally getting started

[Clyde E]

Hey folks -
Long time reader/lurker who has finally ready to get started, so I'm here with hat in hand looking for advice. I'm an experienced cabinet and furniture maker with a full shop (and maybe enough clamps...), so the build itself doesn't worry me -- I'm excited to get this up and going. But I could sure use some advice on which boat to build. I'd like to build a boat to accomodate two things: 1. Solo fishing and paddling on local lakes and ponds; and 2. Outings with two grandsons who will soon be old enough to join me one at a time. No plans to be on any other kind of water -- it's local lakes all the way. I'm a fairly experienced paddler, and feel comfortable on the water.
I think I want a 15' boat because of lighter weight and easier storage, but am happy to be talked out of it. I've looked at the Bear Mtn. 15' Prospector Ranger, and the Ashes Anglers 15' Day, and also at the 15.5' Hiawatha in Ted Moores. (I like that sort of classic recurve at the stems, and am not worried too much about wind as the local lakes I'll use are pretty well sheltered.) Does a 15' boat do the trick, or should I move up to 16'? And I'm sure there are other designs out there that I should take a look at and will appreciate suggestions and advice.

One other question - I'll be milling my own stock and can get western red cedar from a local supplier here in central NC, and also cypress (and in lengths that might just make it possible to use full strips). Advice on which way to go?

Looking looking forward to the build, and to any help you folks can send my way.

Clyde

 

[Gamma1214]

Welcome & I'm looking forward to watching your build.

I've been planning to grab some Cypress myself and I've always built with whatever wood I can find locally (especially if it has little value otherwise). The downside of that is that weight (pounds per cubic foot) is often higher but I compensate for that by reducing strip thickness.

Realistically, if we were really worried about weight, we'd all build with Northern White Cedar or Balsa. IMO it's a matter of what color combos look best to you, what you can source easily and what you can find within your budget.

 

[Cruiser]

Welcome to the madness


1) I think you have hit 3 good boats, given the description of "how" you intend to use them. Since you likely won't be able to try any of these, reviews and description will have to guide what you select. Reality is that if you stick with the main stream designs like those already being reviewed you likely can't get in the weeds, they will all work well.

2) One advantage of taking this sort of project is that you have some freedom in outfitting it for your needs. For example, if you want to take 3 people in the canoe, you can setup the yoke as removable and add a third seat, or just install a third seat designed to work as a yoke, or have it setup to allow a swap. You get the idea, you can customize those aspects pretty easily.

3) The other question
A common limit for wood lengths is 16' at a lot of mills/retailers mainly due to shipping containers/trailers etc ... you can find longer with some work, but if you want full strips without skarfing then keeping to a 15' craft will make wood shopping easier. You can always skarf shorter boards together and mill full strips from that, depending on wood supply. Skarfing each strip, during construction is also an option, but given the choice, I always make full length strips.

The wood itself doesn't really add much to the structural strength of the hull directly, its main job is to hold the fiberglass in place and look pretty. The bare hull once completed represents about 1/3 of the final canoe weight, so if the final project weight is of concern you need to understand what you are deciding when you pick. With the craft on your short list, the difference (using 1/4" strips) in bare hull weight between cypress and western red cedar will be around 6-8 pounds more for the cypress.

Once you add "build weight" as a consideration to your list of decision criteria ... your wood selection options narrow. Western Red Cedar is one of the better woods (IMO) for this purpose, as it has quite a colour palette if you sort through the planks. You can find anything from tan to pinkish to re/brown to chocolate .... basically, you can have hull colour and accents ...all from the same wood, just by selecting/sorting through a wood pile.

Gamma is correct about Northern White Cedar, it is considered THE best selection for building material ... can be a bit bland, but dressed with WRC accents it can be quite nice. If substituted in the above weight estimation, it would be 1-2 pounds lighter than WRC.

A few things to think on

Brian

 

[Clyde E]

Finally getting time to reply after a road trip to Oklahoma and Colorado to deliver two recently built pieces of furniture - really appreciate the responses from Gamma and Cruiser. I'm going wth the 15' prospector ranger from Bear Mountain -- plans will be here in another couple of days. In the meantime, for the price of lunch at the local diner I've scored 2 full sheets of 3/4" plywood for the strong back, plus enough western red cedar to get 50-60 strips at 10' each from an old woodworking friend. Starting to feel like this is headed in the right direction.

I have enough ash on hand to begin milling stock for the stems, and I wonder about choosing between epoxy or Titebond for those glue ups? I'm going to rip the strips at 1/8" thick to see if I can get away without having to steam them, and will mill them flat flat for good mating surfaces. In that application, Titebond should be sufficiently strong? Not opposed to using epoxy, but there won't be gaps in the joints, and the ash won't present any adhesion problems with Titebond, so I'm wondering if it's okay to with it. As a furniture maker, I keep a bunch of it on hand, and have always had good performance. All in all it might be a little less messy. More than happy to be talked into going with epoxy.

 

[Alan Gage]

Assuming it's titebond 3 you should be fine. I don't think I'd trust the waterproofness of 1 or 2 nor would I assume fiberglass and epoxy will keep water away from them forever.

That being said I've used epoxy the couple times I've done stems because of the long open time.

Alan

 

[Cruiser]

Somewhat of a dissenting opinion on TB III, it really isn't recommended for stressed layups, as I understand it. Both epoxy and TB III are rated for waterproof and are of comparable strength, but the TB III doesn't get hard, it stays flexible for a long time after setup and allows some material creep.
If you don't believe the above, take a bit of TB III spread it out on a piece of plastic, let it dry over night, remove it in the morning and check it;s flex ... you can do this over the next month and it stays flexible.

IMO you are better off with epoxy in a no steam, thinner strip stem, bending scenario ... it sets hard and there will be no material creep over time.

 

[Clyde E]

Ah, those are good points about open time, and TB's relative flexibility. Creep, stress, and deformation don't really come into play in the kind of furniture I make (mission-style, lots of mortise and tenon joinery, lots of straight lines), so I appreciate having this on the radar. Man, I'd better take off my furniture maker's hat and put on my boat building hat!

Am I in the weeds going with 1/8" thick ash strips and no steaming? I have some tight, straight grained ash on hand that seems well suited to the job -- quarter-sawn, almost no grain run out.

Really appreciate the help so far. I'm building my strongback this weekend, and have already started milling strips -- looking forward to getting in over my head.....

 

[Cruiser]

IMO, you should be fine with 1/8" strips and no steam .... when you get the form made up, just try a single strip first and see how it takes the bend.

Suggestions:
- don't just bend the wood, as you start the bend, go slowly and let the wood take the bend, as you apply pressure you can "feel" the wood giving a little, if you go to fast, that's when it breaks.
- I like to clamp one side of the glue up bundle, as you do the bend the inner and outer circumferences will cause the strips to fan at the ends, creating a stair effect, clamping/immobilizing the strips at one end controls the sliding a bit and makes the clamp up easier, plus keeps the slide to just one end
- don't forget ... saturate joint with unthickened epoxy and then coat one side with thickened ... and don't over clamp.
- use a sacrificial strip on the outside of the strip bundle, make sure to mask off the side facing the bundle so it doesn't get glued in

 

[Alan Gage]

Am I in the weeds going with 1/8" thick ash strips and no steaming?

That's the way I've done my stems. I can't remember thickness for sure though. 1/8" might be a little fat for no steam. But you'll find out quick enough.

 

[Gamma1214]

I've never built with stems but I do contoured seats from strips. I've found that I get the best results if I soak the strips for 3-4 days then bend them in the jig & allow them to dry (5-7 days usually). After that, I epoxy them & put them back in the jig for a day or two.

It takes a little longer but the wet wood doesn't crack (I've had strips crack when bent dry)