Lash tab PFD “rescue” knifes

[Guest]

While we are conjuring knife recommendations

I want a new/different rescue knife for my PFD lash tab.

I have always carried folders on the lash tab of my PFD, but I’m reconsidering that. Or at least reconsidering the folders I have used in the past, largely because I did not like their clip-to-lash tab security. I have knocked knives off the lash tab with errant arm swings even in non-swimming situations. Some clanked into the boat, and some – not all – were recovered from Davey Jones.

I am rethinking my PFD knife, with an eye towards (in descending order)

#1,Maybe a stubby sheath knife instead of a folder, although I expect it may be easier to “safe” a folder while you are swimming beside the boat. And vice versa perhaps more difficult to thumb open a folder in oh-crap moments. I’ve never had such do or die rescue moments. I hope not to, and hope not to conduct experiments while doing so.

#2, Low maintenance, good quality SS or H1 or something seriously rust proof. Salt water rust proof; in an honest assessment I’m probably not taking care of the blade between every trip. Perhaps with a sheath designed to “breath” and not trap water (and not stab me in the aorta while we are both breathing)

#3, Point and blade designed primarily for rescue cutting purposes, not camp chores. I’m not going to baton wood or whittle points with it. Although I might use it to cut cheese while lunching in the boat.
I know some rescue knives incorporate small-line cutting features or notches, and I’ve probably cut more errantly hung monofilament (sometimes with dangling hook) than any other line. Other folk’s monofilament; I haven’t fished in 20 years.

#4, Most importantly, something that isn’t going to get inadvertently dislodged from the lash tab, but will still remain dependably and instantly accessible. There has got to be a better way of attaching a rescue knife to a PFD lash tab than the usual friction spring clips.

Recommendations?

 

[Greywolf]

Mike look too Gerber they have some nice River Knifes. I have used a double blade stubby with a plastic sheath that holds the knife in well and stays in the lash tab, maybe to good.

 

[madmike]

I settled on crkt (?) Bear claw. Both that and the gerber river knives are greatly imprived by adding a loop of shock cord from the back of the knife up over the sheath. Trauma shears tuck directly into the lash tab. They are cheap and effective.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I can't speak to current fixed blades. The double-edged fixed blade dive knife I had on my PFD during my whitewater days was great for stabbing terrorists but literally couldn't slice bread. So all I'll say about fixed blades is that I had a poor experience with a double edge dive knife.

I know lots of the folders designed with stainless blade steel "for water", although I'd actually recommend something else (later). All these folders have the same kind of pocket clip, so attachment strategies are a function of your PFD and attachment doohickeys for PFD's.

For so-called waterproof stainless steel designs, I'd look at the Spyderco Salt Series (H1 stainless steel) and the Benchmade Griptilian H2O (N680 stainless steel).

However, my research convinced me that stainless steels other than H1 and N680 were just about as water resistant and often less expensive or with better features. The H1 and N680 steels are really made for salt water diving. A canoe knife isn't going to get that kind of exposure. So, I'd also look at the Spyderco Rescue Series, which are made of VG10 SS. I use the orange 79 mm (blade length) Rescue for my PFD knife. It's been on the PFD for 2.5 years with not a hint of rust or stain.

Some of the knives in the Spyderco Salt and Rescue series, including the blunt end "rescue" knives, look alike except for different blade lengths. The 94 mm (blade) version of my 79 mm knife I thought was too long for a PFD knife.

I also now have second thoughts about the blunt end. They are made that way so EMT's can cut seat belts off accident victims without stabbing them in the process. I no longer think that philosophy is the best for a PFD knife. You might want to stab something with a PFD knife, whereas I don't really see a paddling situation analogous to seat belt entrapment.

If you get a Spyderco, get the ones with the largest thumb hole diameter, 9/16" (14 mm). Most Spyderco's don't have these big holes. But they are important for bigger hands, wet hands and cold hands. My 79 Rescue has the 14 mm hole, which is another reason I chose it.

The Benchmade axis lock is, by far, my favorite folding mechanism for speed and versatility of opening and locking, so that worked in my favor for the Benchmade H2O Griptilian. However, I think that knife is also too large for a PFD, although it would work well as a belt knife if it could be securely attached.

The Benchmade knife that is the right size for a PFD, in my opinion, is the Mini Griptilian, which comes in three models, the 555, 556 and 557. The sheepsfoot 555, in addition to the axis lock mechanism, also has a thumb hole like a Spyderco (though smaller). That means you can open the 555 Mini Grip with a thumb stud flick or a gravity flick -- like all axis locks -- or a thumb hole flick. I love this versatility. And this is the PFD knife I chose after my research and would still choose. (But I liked it so much, I took it for my EDC knife, and switched the Spyderco 79 Rescue, which I already had for my car, to my PFD knife.)

I chose the 555 Mini Grip in yellow and with a combo edge, but colors and edges are personal preference. I'm confident that the 154CM stainless steel is sufficiently water resistant for canoeing.

If you want a Benchmade, you can get a big discount directly from them if you are registered as having a current or former military or law enforcement affiliation. For example, the 555 Mini Grip lists for $105 but is available to me for 73.50. That discount usually beats everyone including Amazon.

Finally, and most excitingly, the Mini Grip is one of the few Benchmade knives that you can completely customize. Choose from four different blade steels with different properties, different color grips for each side, different blade shapes, patterns, logos, initials, all kinds of stuff. You can't get this in stores, and the discount applies.

 

[HOOP]

Hi Mike,
I also completely have re-thunk my PFD so-called "rescue knife", and realized I probably had it all wrong for my needs. Originally I had a double edged diving rescue knife. But its useless, and/or dangerous at just about everything I would need it for on a canoe trip. If I ever had to cut a lining rope from around my leg or body, I sure as heck don't want a double edged knife! I want a single edged knife. I want a drop point so I can slide the tip under the rope and not cut myself (still dangerous but less so). Like Glenn mentioned I also want a tip on that knife for stabbing, drilling holes, and many other uses.

Also, if I ever lost my boat and all my gear in big rapids, and had the misfortune of having my belt knife slip out of its sheath in a gnarly swim, my survival knife is the knife on my PFD. I concluded that what I want on my PDF is a bushcraft all purpose knife that will be good for cutting rope, preparing wood and kindling for fires, especially rescue smoke fires, and processing wood and plants and other materials for making shelters, etc. It needs to be able to baton with, since I will not have my axe when my gear is lost. I may also have to baton the knife through my boat to retrieve my packs if my boat is irretrievably wrapped.

What I am currently using on my PFD is an ESEE 3. I bought the molle back sheath, which is really important to order with it. This sheath is rated as "jump-proof" for paratroopers. Its an extremely secure fit with 3 methods of securement: clicked into a kydex sheath, warp around velcro strap around the handle, and an elastic flap that the handle end can fit under so that it cannot slip out of the sheath. You can also chose to use either or none of the latter 2, depending on how handy you want that knife to be, and what detachment risk you are willing to accept.

The manufacturer's website does not show the molle strap and snap on the back of the molle back part. It can weave into a PDF lash tab. Tat is how I have it mounted on my PDF. The holes on the end of the kydex sheath also provide another cord loop lash point to wrap the tip down and tight to the shoulder strap of the PFD (upside down mount on the PFD), so that its not poking up. I also have done that with mine. Here is the knife link: http://eseeknives.com/esee-3.htm
The molle back sheath link is here: http://eseeknives.com/esee-3-sheathing.htm

Cons: The knife is carbon steel (you wanted SS?), and its coated. But the good news is you can easily prevent rust, at least in the fresh water use I have used it in (I cannot vouch for salt water). I never use the knife since I use my belt knife. So I rub candle wax on the edge, and its never rusted on me. The coating also prevents rust. I also ground off the coating along the spine, sharpened the spine so that it can rip molten metal off a ferro rod. So the carbon steel is exposed there, but I also rubbed it with candle wax, and no rust has happened after 3 summers of use.

Another con is the big finger choil. I hate that. But I put up with it because otherwise, the knife plus the sheath has everything I want. I also hate the coating, but since I sharpened the spine to be functional, its no big deal. In any case it has not rusted on me, and I give it zero care in the bush.

I got mine from Bushcraftcanada.com He shows many ESEE models on his website. The code for the molle back sheath is "MB". The ESEE 4 is similar, but 1 inch bigger and slightly heavier. This store also sells a molle sheath for generic knives (sheath made by Spec Ops). You heat mold the kydex or plastic inner sheath to fit your particular knife. I have not seen this sheath in real life, but it looks like it would make a secure upside down mount for a PFD. http://www.bushcraftcanada.com/products/detail.cfm?product=1308

Some ideas for you.

 

[memaquay]

Thanks for that link Hoop. Man, those Mora knives are cheap!

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

The Benchmade public safety person discount is now 51% for the first purchase and 30% thereafter. Wow.

 

[Holmes375]

Kokatat updated their flagship touring PFDs with an integral cover over the front lash tab. This helps in preventing the knife from being dislodged and also keeps the knife from snagging when doing self rescues. A nice touch.

 

[Hanz]

I use an 2.6" fixed blade ESEE Izula lashed using a small Malice Clip on my NRS Chinook PFD. I haven't needed it yet but I'm glad it's there.

IzulaPFD by Hansen.Dougie, on Flickr

http://eseeknives.com/izula.htm

http://www.tacticaltailor.com/maliceclip.aspx

http://www.nrs.com/product/21501/nrs...ck-fishing-pfd

 

[Canotrouge]

That is the one I have,https://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=824 and I love it, it is my second Spyderco, the first one is a rescue folder, but I wanted a fixe blade. Top quality steel and all!!

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

A few extra thoughts.

Hoop's philosphy of having a 3+" fixed blade bushcraft knife on the PFD is surely appropriate for the type of solo deep wilderness tripping he does.

These days, I do mostly day trips, base camping or canoe camping in "tourist wilderness", so my philosophy is to have my cheapest knife on my PFD with my good knife on my belt or in my ditch kit. I also think a PFD knife should be light. But I don't really like those teeny-tiny blades and I don't like pointy blades. I want a decent length blade, 2.5" to 3+", but I want to minimize overall length. So I opt for a folder of the lightweight and less expensive variety. My Spyderco 79 Rescue meets those criteria because I got it at a close-out sale for about $35.

I have no problem keeping my folders on the typical square plastic lash tab on my PFD. The pocket clip goes right through two openings on the square. It's never fallen out, and I toss my PFD around in my vehicle and on the ground without any particular delicacy. Maybe the pocket clip on a really short folder would be too short to get all the way through the lash square. You want a long clip, a "low riding" pants clip on the folder.

Extraction speed is slower with a folder on a lash tab than a fixed blade in a clip lock, but I've never been in a canoeing situation where five to seven seconds matters. (It's a different story when I'm prowling the slums of the Bronx and Queens in the winter but, alas, fixed blades are illegal in NYC.)

The really important takeaway for me from Hoop's decision to use the ESEE 3 is that, even in true wilderness, he's willing to use a 1095 carbon steel knife, which is much more subject to corrosion than any stainless steel, and yet he reports no problems with corrosion with some easy care. That's just another confirmation to me that ANY stainless steel is sufficiently anti-corrosive for the recreational canoeist, whether for a PFD knife or belt knife. I simply wouldn't obsess about that at all. HERE's Benchmade's table of the different blade steels it uses, although it's not too useful since it makes everything sound great.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

HERE is an interactive knife blade steel chart.

According to Wikipedia, here are the most corrosion resistant stainless steels:

[h=3]"Stain-proof steels[/h] The steels in this category have much higher resistance to elements and corrosion than conventional stainless steels. They are used in knives designed for use in aggressive, highly corrosive environments, such as saltwater, areas with high humidity like tropical forests, swamps, etc.

• H1, produced by Myodo Metals, Japan. Used by Spyderco in their salt water/diving knives. Benchmade used it as well, later replaced with X15TN.
• X15TN, French steel, originally designed for medical industry and jet ball bearings. Used by Benchmade in their salt water/diving knives.
• N680, Bohler-Uddeholm steel, highly corrosion resistant. Used by Benchmade in their salt water/diving knives.
• N690CO an Austrian stainless steel hardened to the high Rc50 range. Currently found in Spyderco's Hossom knives and the recently discontinued Italian-made Volpe. TOPS knives also used it in their C.Q.T magnum 711 knife. Also used extensively by Fox Knives Military Division and Extrema Ratio."

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Mike, if you are interested in the Spyderco Salt Sheepsfoot Enuff, which Canotrouge has, here are two videos of the Enuff blades. None are the Salt (H1 SS) versions, but they can give you an idea for the size and especially for the sheath, the attachability of which I know is a big factor for you. Note that the second video reviewer is very negative on the sheath because the knife clearly rattles in it. Perhaps Canotrouge could give first hand info on that.

 

[Philtrum]

No Title

I have Gerber River Shorty attached to my PFD.
http://www.gerbergear.com/Outdoor/Knives/River-Shorty-Black_30-000967
It took a bit of doing to attach it, since there was no lash tab, but it holds.

 

[Guest]

Mike, if you are interested in the Spyderco Salt Sheepsfoot Enuff, which Canotrouge has Note that the second video reviewer is very negative on the sheath because the knife clearly rattles in it. Perhaps Canotrouge could give first hand info on that.

Glenn, I am interested in something from the Spyderco H1 Salt series, but my Salt sheath (4” blade) is wayyy longer than I want on my PFD, and I am far from satisfied with the tenacity of both the sheath’s clip on the lash tab and in how well the blade stays in the sheath. To the point that I removed the clip appendages and carry it in my essentials or in a deep clothing pocket when using it ashore.

I have Gerber River Shorty attached to my PFD.

We actually have a River Shortie. One of my sons carries one in a Lotus Wedge that has no lash tab. That PFD has a long, full panel width pocket in front. The Gerber Shortie is (or at one time was) infamous for falling out of the sheath, to the point where a lot of paddlers had DIYed elastic bands around the knife handle/sheath or other “fixes”.

I was disappointed that Gerber would produce that PFD knife for so many years with such a well known flaw. The Shortie we have also rattles in the sheath like a dang castanet. They may have fixed those issues; I bought the Shortie a few years ago at a deep discount and it I think it was a close-out last of them after those design issues had finally been corrected.

I hadn’t really thought about the rattling aspect. My folders are silent, and I like my quiet.

I must be exceptionally clumsy or something. I have knocked a folder off the lash tab more than once while flailing around trying to clamber up a steep landing bank or busting my way through some swamp strainer bypass.

At least my search criteria are becoming more specific. Rustproof and near maintenance free. I hope to not use it, so re-sharpening becomes less important. And so a serrated or partially serrated blade may be worthwhile, with a sheepsfoot or other non-stabby point.

No rattle quiet. That’s a new consideration. When I am paddling, especially solo and immersed in quiet, even the barely perceptible whoosh-whoosh of a neck drape hat flap against the PFD bothers me. ClinkClankRattle is not a background noise I could live with.


Clip or sheath somehow assuredly attached to PFD and, for a non-folder knife, blade held securely in the sheath. I could probably fashion some DIY solution to improve the lash tab security without illegally altering the PFD, but if I’m dropping big bucks on a knife I don’t want to have to fix it before using it.

Small. I’m thinking size matters and the smallest lash tab knife I can live with the less likely I am to inadvertently dislodge it or find it in the way.

Playing around with the knives we have and the lash tab placement on my preferred PFDs it seems that five inches long max would seem best, and an inch under that advantageous. Which brings a folder back into play, provided the thumb open mech and grip feel good in my hand.

I don’t know if I can determine some of that without actually holding the knife in hand, attaching it to my PFD, jostling it around, pulling it out or thumbing it open (and safeing it). It is tough enough spending $100+ on a knife I hope not to use, and I’d really rather do so once.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Which brings a folder back into play, provided the thumb open mech and grip feel good in my hand.

If that's so, keep in mind that you can have a Mini-Griptilian custom made on the Benchmade website with the N680 waterproof SS. You can simply go on the interactive website and custom make the knife and see what it costs, which I get to be $135. Then, if you qualify for the 51% discount (or even the 30% discount), just subtract that from the cost.

As to the opening mechanism, a lot of serious knife people (and also I) think the Benchmade axis lock is the best there is. You can open and close with just gravity flicks--no thumbing necessary. I made a mistake earlier: the modified sheepsfoot 555 blade with the Spyderco-like thumb hole does not also have thumb studs.

As to feel, that's subjective. The Mini-Grip handle is very textured with well-placed jimping, and has a rounder or more swollen handle than the Spyderco's I've tried, all of which are flat on both sides of the handle.

Here's a comparison review of two Mini-Grips and some other competitors:

Benchmade also has a lifetime free sharpening service in which they sharpen, take apart, clean, lubricate, and replace worn parts for free (you pay shipping). They will also exchange among their six different clips for free. They will also replace any folder blade that you damage, break or just want to change for a different shape for a $25 fee. This guy sent in two Mini-Grips for the Lifesharp service and says they turned it around in three days.

No, I don't work for Benchmade. But I am a very satisfied customer with two of their folders, and like axis locks much more than the mechanisms on my Spyderco, Kershaw and Gerber. Plus I like . . . Made in America.

 

[Philtrum]

We actually have a River Shortie. One of my sons carries one in a Lotus Wedge that has no lash tab. That PFD has a long, full panel width pocket in front. The Gerber Shortie is (or at one time was) infamous for falling out of the sheath, to the point where a lot of paddlers had DIYed elastic bands around the knife handle/sheath or other “fixes”.

I was disappointed that Gerber would produce that PFD knife for so many years with such a well known flaw. The Shortie we have also rattles in the sheath like a dang castanet. They may have fixed those issues; I bought the Shortie a few years ago at a deep discount and it I think it was a close-out last of them after those design issues had finally been corrected.

My Gerber fits tight in its sheath. There's a detent that makes a loud click when the knife is securely seated. And I've never noticed any rattling. It also has a flattened end and a serrated blade.

 

[Guest]

End of analysis paralysis.

I want rustproof, and I’m sold on Spyderco’s HI. I want something short, so back to a folder. I want a serrated blade for rope and rescue cutting.

I had a long conversation with the guys at Spyderco and they e-mailed me links to some likely candidates, both folders and their stubbiest sheath.

http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=264

http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=172

http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=824


The stubby Enuff Sheepsfoot Salt is still too long for my lash tab position and purposes at 6.75 inches.

The Atlantic Salt yellow is – surprise - the lash tab knife I have most liked (and lost or had stolen). The 4.625 inch length just fit on my lash tab position.

The Salt Saver at 4.093 inches looks to be my H1 solution. At a half inch shorter I’ll be less likely to dislodge it, and it appears to have a different style clip than my vanished Atlantic Salt. I’m not sure about the functionality of the lanyard hole, which was not on my previously Atlantic Salt.

$120 from Spyderco. I could probably save a few bucks by ordering from some vendor, but the Spyderco guys were very helpful and customer service is worth a price. heck, they had me with the company motto:

““Integrity is being good, even if no one is watching”™

BTW – Spyderco’s complimentary sharpening - $5 for shipping and handling covers up to four knives at a time. I need to find our rusty Byrd Cara Caras; I asked and they will sharpen those economy-line knives as well.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

The Saver Salt is the H1 equivalent of my 79mm Rescue. You could have gotten it for $34.95 from the vendor I linked in my first post.

http://www.bladehq.com/item--Spyderco-Saver-Salt-Knife-C118SBK--9850

 

[Guest]

Hanz: The Izula set up is sweet, and it avoids the extra step of opening a folder obviously, but I wonder just how secure it is really. Have you ever had a problem or concern that it would detach while capsizing, swimming, etc.? Glenn: The price on the Salt is crazy. If it's not sold out by tomorrow morning I'm going to grab one or two. Thanks.