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Cedar gunwales?
- Thread starter Sven
- Start date
My only concern with cedar would be with them getting banged up. And maybe their ability to hold screws unless you're gluing.
If wear and tear don't bother you I say go for it. Maybe beef up the size a little bit for more strength, at least the inwale which will be drilled for seats and thwarts. Should be easy to work with and bend.
Alan
If wear and tear don't bother you I say go for it. Maybe beef up the size a little bit for more strength, at least the inwale which will be drilled for seats and thwarts. Should be easy to work with and bend.
Alan
Well, some dudes on here will tell you "why stop at cedar?" They will tell you that you can actually take an old Gumby doll from the 70's and stretch him into one concise gunwale that acts as an integrated inner and outer and only weighs two micro grams. I'm not that guy. I will only use hardwood gunwales, both inner and outer. And I never glue them on either. And I can still crap in the bush without a thunderbox. I'm old school like that.
I agree with NOT glueing them on.
Pros: light, should be able to find long enough boards to not have to scarf, love the look of cedar.
Cons: soft, strong enough to hang seats, thwarts and yoke on???, did I say soft.
How about hardwood inners and cedar outers.
I was considering making them removable, but also mounting the seats on cleats that were glassed in place.
If you're going cedar might as well glue them. I'm always amazed how much a bag of 60 stainless screws weighs.
How about a laminate with a harder wood strip on the outside to take the abuse and the cedar against the hull?
Don't poke the bear Alan. Mem and Yellowcanoe are already bickering like an old married couple in that other thread.
How about a laminate with a harder wood strip on the outside to take the abuse and the cedar against the hull?
Don't poke the bear Alan. Mem and Yellowcanoe are already bickering like an old married couple in that other thread.
I like the laminate idea, I feel like a hardwood cap might be more beneficial. Seems like time on the rack might be the most abusive in my travels, which are limited compared to most of you other guys and gals.
I guess the assumption is that you are considering cedar to save weight, so I will comment with that in mind.
Last build (Freedom 17) I used 3/8" cherry inside and out ... glued on and that is plenty stiff. Only issue is it's not enough to hang the seat from, so I installed wider sections for that, now I think using a cleated seat would get around the whole issue. The narrower gunnels are fine for attaching the yoke and thwart(s) IMO.
I am getting ready to start another Freedom Solo and I am looking at cedar gunnels for that ... my intention is to use a 3/4" Uniwale with a carbon fiber layer and a 5/16 x 1/2" channel ... my calcs indicate i will save a few pounds off of the cherry I used last time. The seat will use cleats, so I don't have to worry about hanging off the gunnels. I will likely use the the coated cedar for yoke and thwarts as well.
Once I started adding up how much all the non hull stuff weighs .. I figured that was the best place to start saving weight.
Just a few thought.
Brian
Last build (Freedom 17) I used 3/8" cherry inside and out ... glued on and that is plenty stiff. Only issue is it's not enough to hang the seat from, so I installed wider sections for that, now I think using a cleated seat would get around the whole issue. The narrower gunnels are fine for attaching the yoke and thwart(s) IMO.
I am getting ready to start another Freedom Solo and I am looking at cedar gunnels for that ... my intention is to use a 3/4" Uniwale with a carbon fiber layer and a 5/16 x 1/2" channel ... my calcs indicate i will save a few pounds off of the cherry I used last time. The seat will use cleats, so I don't have to worry about hanging off the gunnels. I will likely use the the coated cedar for yoke and thwarts as well.
Once I started adding up how much all the non hull stuff weighs .. I figured that was the best place to start saving weight.
Just a few thought.
Brian
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I think al to of boat builders of the past would use spruce new and ash, oak, cherry outer... Spruce is harder than cedar, but for sure not as light... You could go yellow cedar, kind of in between the 2.... But I'm like Mem....
If you're considering softwoods to save weight, might I suggest southern yellow pine? It's as strong as oak, almost as hard as cherry, and can easily be found in 18'+ lengths. You need to get the highest grade of it to avoid knotty sections, but I've been pleased with it on my Kevlar build so far. A coat or two of light epoxy over them helps to harden them up too.
A lot of old Maine guide canoes used white spruce for both gunwales. Thousands of Old Town CS grade wood and canvas canoes had spruce gunwales. It works well. I have used Sitka as well.
I went with white pine inwales to save weight but not the outwales and made them from ash... since outwales need to take most of the abuse from packs, ports, rocks, campsites, roof racks. The ash outwales were ripped to about 1"x3/4" then rabbeted out to form an L-shape of about 3/16" thickness... that way the outwale caps the edge of the hull on top and on the side. It's easily replaced since it's held on with screws. The inwale OTOH was glued in. So far the ash outwale is holding up well, while the softer pine inwale is showing dings and gouges even though it's in a more protected area (being shielded more or less by the outwale cap)..
Initially there was some worry about hanging seats from the softer pine with weight and stress from the bolt head cracking and shearing off a possibly weak inwale. But a test with a similarly sized piece of pine glued to a chunk of plywood, then drilled and bolted showed that one bolt bearing down on the pine would hold my weight (the plywood was held in a vise and the bolt running through the pine held a chain loop that in turn held my weight when I stepped into it). So no worries with weight-bearing capacity on two or four bolts even when butt and seat are causing some heavier-than-normal stresses on those bolts.
Initially there was some worry about hanging seats from the softer pine with weight and stress from the bolt head cracking and shearing off a possibly weak inwale. But a test with a similarly sized piece of pine glued to a chunk of plywood, then drilled and bolted showed that one bolt bearing down on the pine would hold my weight (the plywood was held in a vise and the bolt running through the pine held a chain loop that in turn held my weight when I stepped into it). So no worries with weight-bearing capacity on two or four bolts even when butt and seat are causing some heavier-than-normal stresses on those bolts.
My dearly departed 17 ft stripper had southern yellow pine gunnels, screwed on. Sure, they got nicked up after 25 years, but were still intact when the boat was wrapped. That boat was 37 lbs when first built!
Didn't Alan carbon wrap cedar for some of his gunnels? I remember them being quite strong.
Even though I come from the world of high tech, I too still do my business over a cat hole...But don't disparage carbon (or glass) over foam for gunnels. Unless you are constrained by aesthetics, there's no better combo of strength and light weight.
Didn't Alan carbon wrap cedar for some of his gunnels? I remember them being quite strong.
Even though I come from the world of high tech, I too still do my business over a cat hole...But don't disparage carbon (or glass) over foam for gunnels. Unless you are constrained by aesthetics, there's no better combo of strength and light weight.
Wow ! Where was I yesterday ?
I've never regretted hard wood gunnels ! If you want to just screw them on, seal the heck out of them, or you will be replacing them.
If you are just going to LOOK at the boat, Cedar, Cherry is fine ! If you are going to USE that boat ? ASH !
Period !
Mem is OK !
Jim
I've never regretted hard wood gunnels ! If you want to just screw them on, seal the heck out of them, or you will be replacing them.
If you are just going to LOOK at the boat, Cedar, Cherry is fine ! If you are going to USE that boat ? ASH !
Period !
Mem is OK !
Jim
That's what I've used on the last 4 personal boats I've built. From my testing it bettered both ash and oak when it came to strength and was a good deal lighter. A little under 5 pounds for gunwales on a 16.5' boat. It's also more expensive and a bit of a PITA.
On my current build I'm leaning towards (skinny) ash since it's what I have on hand and I'm not so concerned about it being super light or super strong.
Alan
I think the old timey Maine Guides used spruce cause it was handy on the river. They knew how to make field repairs and build a new gunwale. Ash doesn't grow much around here. I have only built two sets of gunwales. Both cherry.. My wooden boats have cherry too. It wears quite well and has never split. Replacing? Not if stored right.. My oldest cherry gunwaled boat is 23 years old.
Living near the shore for quite a while I hated ash and the mildew it got.. I suspect there is no such problem in the Midwest.
But in the land of eternal spring and winter ( it got to 40 today with perpetual fog) ash is ugh.
Living near the shore for quite a while I hated ash and the mildew it got.. I suspect there is no such problem in the Midwest.
But in the land of eternal spring and winter ( it got to 40 today with perpetual fog) ash is ugh.
I've read somewhere that spruce was standard gunwale material here in Ontario, maybe 1900-1930... the more expensive option was oak. I've forgotten the book that that was written in which will now nag at my few remaining brain cells until it's remembered or some distraction appears.
Speaking of distractions, here's something that works for dogs, could help to keep them from running away.
Speaking of distractions, here's something that works for dogs, could help to keep them from running away.
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A lot of the older boats we restore have spruce inners. The Tremblays are actually mahogany. We have been replacing with douglas fir, and sometimes splicing in repairs with old spruce 2x4 pieces that match the grain better. We used red oak on one ...very pretty. Our friend Doug has been using birch lately. We tried some and it was for sure hard but kind of heavy. We did a laminate on that. I do have some shorter pieces of spruce that can be scarfed.
Laminations work good for seats and stems and such so why not gunwales?
Laminations work good for seats and stems and such so why not gunwales?
