Converting Penobscot 16 into a solo...

Hi there, today I picked up an Old Town Penobscot 16 that's in great shape. It's heavier than I want it to be, but I like the durability of royalex, and that it can take me places where I probably wouldn't allow my wood and canvas to go. As you can see from the photos, this version comes with three seats and two thwarts. If I wanted to make it into a solo craft, would I negatively impact the integrity of the hull if I just removed the bow and stern seats (while leaving the two thwarts and the center seat)? Do those bow and stern seats strongly contribute to the shape of the hull? I don't know if the boat would flex or flare out if they were removed. I'm wondering if others have experience with this, or opinions that may be rooted in more experience than what I have. Many thanks!

Brightraven said:

Do those bow and stern seats strongly contribute to the shape of the hull?

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I suspect that they don't but it will easy enough to remove them as a test and see. Good luck,

Benson

Because the seats are hung from the gunwales, I doubt that they lend much structural support to the hull.

As Benson points out, removing them to test (and reinstalling if needed) is easy enough... Go for it!

Conversion to solo is certainly possible. I did the same with my Wilma. (Old Town 146k) No problem at all.

Good canoes. I converted a small OT Canadienne to solo use. A solo seat will require that you take out the center thwart. Look at the thwarts and seats in some solo boats. With a beam of 32 inches I found the OT to be too tender. I like the idea of paddling the Pen 16 solo.

Brightraven said:

Hi there, today I picked up an Old Town Penobscot 16 that's in great shape. It's heavier than I want it to be, but I like the durability of royalex, and that it can take me places where I probably wouldn't allow my wood and canvas to go. As you can see from the photos, this version comes with three seats and two thwarts. If I wanted to make it into a solo craft, would I negatively impact the integrity of the hull if I just removed the bow and stern seats (while leaving the two thwarts and the center seat)? Do those bow and stern seats strongly contribute to the shape of the hull? I don't know if the boat would flex or flare out if they were removed. I'm wondering if others have experience with this, or opinions that may be rooted in more experience than what I have. Many thanks!
View attachment 146948View attachment 146949

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You'll have no problems from removing the seats and the weight reduction will be significant (I'd guess 6-8 pounds). Penobscot 16 makes an excellent solo. I recommend that you oil the cane on the seats; any oil is fine. Congrats, that boat looks new!

Thank you for your replies. Today I took out the bow and stern seats while leaving the center seat and the two remaining thwarts. Upon picking up the canoe, there was definitely some minor wobble and flex in the Royalex, so I assume those seats did add some structural support (albeit quite limited). Definitely lighter in weight, and I plan on exchanging the ash thwarts and remaining seat with cherry to bring the weight down even more. I think adding a thwart towards each end of the boat may provide some stiffness and integrity as well. When I took it out on the water today I was so impressed by how easily this boat maneuvered. I like to paddle Canadian style, knees tucked into the hull, and the boat moved effortlessly, heeled over to the side. What I thought was a regretful impulse buy turned out to be quite a sweet boat...now I just want to personalize it a bit by strengthening it and lightening the woodwork. I'm wondering if Ed's canoes is the place to go for lighter wooden seats with extended webbing, thwarts, etc...? Many thanks for the inspiration and words of wisdom.

You should dig into this thread, which wonders into, at length, soloizing a Penobscot. "Guest" was a user named Mike McCrea and many posts in that thread are from him. The long ones. Also, Canoetripping's "Will Derness" soloized his Penobscot, utilizing some of McCrea's ideas. So, you should find a lot to ponder in that thread.

Will Derness loaned me his Penobscot and in 2019 I river tripped in it for 22 days. It soloed very well and provided carrying capacity for my gear and some of the gear my friend, a stinking kayak paddler, couldn't carry. Will Derness is still around on CT, so hopefully he will pitch in here.

@Brightraven

and if everything works to your satisfaction, you should think about another seat.

Why? So that you don't have to sit so much on the pieces of wood when you are sitting on the edge of the board. This is very uncomfortable in the long run.

A seat with a wider seat surface is much more comfortable.

before with the original seat.



here with the modifid original seat



and then the last stage with the self-made seat. That one works quite well.



. .

Brightraven said:

Thank you for your replies. Today I took out the bow and stern seats while leaving the center seat and the two remaining thwarts. Upon picking up the canoe, there was definitely some minor wobble and flex in the Royalex, so I assume those seats did add some structural support (albeit quite limited). Definitely lighter in weight, and I plan on exchanging the ash thwarts and remaining seat with cherry to bring the weight down even more. I think adding a thwart towards each end of the boat may provide some stiffness and integrity as well. When I took it out on the water today I was so impressed by how easily this boat maneuvered. I like to paddle Canadian style, knees tucked into the hull, and the boat moved effortlessly, heeled over to the side. What I thought was a regretful impulse buy turned out to be quite a sweet boat...now I just want to personalize it a bit by strengthening it and lightening the woodwork. I'm wondering if Ed's canoes is the place to go for lighter wooden seats with extended webbing, thwarts, etc...? Many thanks for the inspiration and words of wisdom.

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I thought ash was lighter than cherry.

Regarding removing the seats and adding thwarts you have lots of options. The front/rear seats and the thwarts help minimize twisting. Since there is a thwart behind the front seat I expect that removing the front seat would affect the structure less than removing the rear seat. For lightness a 1"×2" piece of wood will be plenty strong and even pine would work.

In my experience the seats from Ed's are heavier than stock because Ed uses thicker stock thanbtge msnufacturers. Hemlock canoe offers a lightweight seat but overall I'd be surprised if you could save even one pound by changing the front and rear seats.

Personally I'm happy paddling a tandem boat solo without a full width seat but maybe you'd prefer it like Kahei does. A full width seat will add weight, probably around a pound.

Late to the show, but here's what I remember from the solo conversion I did. I've been rooting around for useful photos and will post if I find them.

1. The canoe heels quite readily so a wide seat allows you move easily to either side. Well worth it in my estimationn.
2. Replace the OT dowel hangers with ones that inhibit seat sway.

3. After removing front and rear seat, each seat location got a thwart.
4. I added a foot bar and back band(not shown here).

5. Not shown in photo but had a front cover made for the canoe, to help with windage, and shed water from using a double. Snaps for the cover show on the picture of the hull.
6. Installed a 2 inch webbing carry yoke, sufficient for getting canoe from the water edge to the vehicle. Rolls up out of the way when not in use.

kahel said:

@Brightraven

and if everything works to your satisfaction, you should think about another seat.

Why? So that you don't have to sit so much on the pieces of wood when you are sitting on the edge of the board. This is very uncomfortable in the long run.

A seat with a wider seat surface is much more comfortable.

before with the original seat.

View attachment 146975

here with the modifid original seat

View attachment 146976

and then the last stage with the self-made seat. That one works quite well.

View attachment 146973

View attachment 146971 . View attachment 146972 . View attachment 146974

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Yes! That is exactly what I plan to do...get a different seat. Yours is beautiful! Nice work... I do not have that skillset to make one, and I have been looking all over trying to find a wide seat that matches the dimensions of the one already in there (so I don't have to make new holes directly next to the established ones). I like to go as close to the edge as possible when I paddle, and my butt was hurting after an hour of sitting on the edge of the original seat.

Will Derness said:

Late to the show, but here's what I remember from the solo conversion I did. I've been rooting around for useful photos and will post if I find them.

1. The canoe heels quite readily so a wide seat allows you move easily to either side. Well worth it in my estimationn.
2. Replace the OT dowel hangers with ones that inhibit seat sway.View attachment 146981

3. After removing front and rear seat, each seat location got a thwart.
4. I added a foot bar and back band(not shown here).
View attachment 146996
5. Not shown in photo but had a front cover made for the canoe, to help with windage, and shed water from using a double. Snaps for the cover show on the picture of the hull.
6. Installed a 2 inch webbing carry yoke, sufficient for getting canoe from the water edge to the vehicle. Rolls up out of the way when not in use.

Click to expand...

I appreciate the photos and tips...Is it necessary to add thwarts in the same place as where the old seats were? I'd like to have some more room in the boat for my dog and gear, and was thinking of adding some lighter weight thwarts closer to the bow and stern...Wondering if there is an art or science to thwart placement...Does it matter if I put one about 18" from the bow and another the same length from the stern...? Or further out? Many thanks!

...Wondering if there is an art or science to thwart placement...Does it matter if I put one about 18" from the bow and another the same length from the stern...? Or further out?...

Click to expand...

I'd clamp something (like a wooden furring strip?) to the hull at your desired locations and see how it behaves. If the flex / support seems reasonable, drill some holes and add the thwart(s). I'm sure there is an art (and, probably a science) to thwart placement but I'm a "trial & error" guy as long as trials can be done in a removeable manner that does not add holes until you're ready.

I think when it comes to thwarts the necessity, if there is one, will depend on usage. If you're running rapids, paddling in big wind and waves, or traveling over tough portages where the boat might get dropped then maybe it would be a good idea to put in some extra ones. If you're just going out for day paddles or light trips in good conditions then probably not necessary at all.

I would personally not add any thwarts until I paddled the boat for a while to see how it does. If I saw more flex than I was comfortable with I'd think about what to add and where. If everything seemed fine during regular use then I'd let it ride.

Alan

kahel said:

A seat with a wider seat surface is much more comfortable.

Click to expand...

Will Derness said:

The canoe heels quite readily so a wide seat allows you move easily to either side.

Click to expand...

Brightraven said:

I have been looking all over trying to find a wide seat that matches the dimensions of the one already in there (so I don't have to make new holes directly next to the established ones).

Click to expand...

I agree that a wide seat will be more comfortable for paddling heeled, Canadian style, as you say you intend to. Ed's and Essex Industries make wide cane and webbed seats for sale, and you can probably contact them to get an idea of weights.

If you want a wide, lightweight, aesthetic and very comfortable curved seat, @Conk makes them for Hemlock and may be willing to make you a custom seat to fit your dimensions if you contact him. Sending him a DM from this site will also generate an email to him.

Brightraven said:

I appreciate the photos and tips...Is it necessary to add thwarts in the same place as where the old seats were? I'd like to have some more room in the boat for my dog and gear, and was thinking of adding some lighter weight thwarts closer to the bow and stern...Wondering if there is an art or science to thwart placement...Does it matter if I put one about 18" from the bow and another the same length from the stern...? Or further out? Many thanks!

Click to expand...

Well to minimize my conversion work I used the gunwale holes of the old seats closest to the ends of the canoe for the thwarts. I didn’t notice any flex in the hull after adding the thwarts. However I don’t have a dog so I’m not sure if those locations will work for you. There shouldn’t be a problem locating the thwarts closer to the ends of the canoe. I use inexpensive 1X2 lumber to make a sacrificial first thwart to get everything the way I like it. Once satisfied with the sacrificial thwart I use it to trace the length and seat holes on to the finished thwart. Don't forget to seal the cut ends and seat holes, significantly adds to thwart/seat life.

Northstar makes a laminated wide center seat in ash or walnut. If you get a center seat other than from OT, you may have to drill new holes as, for some reason, there is no standard distance between front and rear seat stays. In the past Ed’s Canoe has made me a seat whose front and rear seat stays match the holes already drilled in the gunwales.

The center seat on your Penobscot appears to placed where I like it, about 8-10 inches aft of the center line. Sitting with no gear in the canoe has me riding bow high. If I feel the need for more stability I can kneel and have my body weight just behind the horizontal centerline and leaving the canoe still riding slightly bow high.

This photo should help you visualize how these alternative seat drops help with inhibiting seat back and forth sway. Compared with dowel seat drops there is much more surface contact area on both the gunwale and seat stay. Much less precision needed during installation than truss drops.

I like having only one seat in a solo boat that once was a tandem. It seemed so roomy with plenty of places to put gear and a dog.