Self-learning to pole upstream - bow control and other tips?

Glenn MacGrady said:

Overall, I'm still not clear whether one generally wants to be bow light or bow heavy when poling up or down a river, other than you want to be bow light when trying to ascend upstream over a ledge.

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Tsuga8 said:

Seems like the answer is: "it depends". Thankfully when poling, trim is easily adjusted on the fly by means of hopping.

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This is why discussing it will never be as helpful as getting the boat in the water and practicing. Learning by repeated failure is the way. It does depend on a lot of variables, including which boat you're standing in.

I break these bow light/heavy "rules" all the time, depending on the situation. They don't even seem to apply much in hulls like the NC Prospector and MR Guide, in which I pretty much just hang out close behind the yoke or just ahead of the seat, respectively.

Moderate symmetrical rocker kind of makes it irrelevant - but tends to come with a less efficient hull.

And you can easily carry this past the point of diminishing returns. It's good to have all these things in mind, but ultimately, it takes time in the boat pushing your limits (and failing) to drill this into your brain/body. I remember being told years ago by someone on the old P.net - "If you aren't swimming, you aren't learning".

Steve in Idaho said:

Standing farther back does make it easier to avoid introducing yaw while pushing hard, but also reduces your leverage for heeling. Sometimes it's an advantage, sometimes not.

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I can get more leverage for heeling from the stern while seated because my weight is resting higher on the hull as apposed to it being on the bottom of the boat. You could try standing on the stern seat. Hahaha.

I think keeping the upstream end of your boat as light as possible in a current makes it easier. You need to keep two things in mind though. First you still need to be stable and second you need to be aware of any downstream breeze and weight your bow accordingly. I've seen old photos of Maine guides with a client sitting on the floor of the boat just ahead of the center thwart instead of on the more comfortable bow seat. I thought this would be unnecessary in my 20' EM White because of how easy the boat spins when loaded with a pretty level trim. I found out otherwise when poling on the Delaware. With my wife in the bow seat I was unable to control the bow even with her doing an appropriate draw to help out. When I had her move back behind the bow thwart I got up with no problem. My conclusion was that when you think your bow light, lighten it some more.

I personally don't think being bow heavy has any place in poling unless it's to briefly pin your bow for a maneuver. Pretty much the same for paddling. When the wind is strong enough that I need to be continually bow heavy, that's about the same time I get off the water.

lowangle al said:

I think keeping the upstream end of your boat as light as possible in a current makes it easier.

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Definitely makes it easier to control the bow going against the current. But requires more thrust per FPS.

lowangle al said:

....you need to be aware of any downstream breeze and weight your bow accordingly.

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Wind complicates things for sure.

lowangle al said:

I personally don't think being bow heavy has any place in poling unless it's to briefly pin your bow for a maneuver. Pretty much the same for paddling. When the wind is strong enough that I need to be continually bow heavy, that's about the same time I get off the water.

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I was fighting a headwind while poling down the lower Payette in the Coho one day. Current was strong and the wind kept increasing. Eventually, I was clear up in the bow (ahead of where the seat would be if there was one) and kayak-stroking. That was working well until I tried to catch an eddy on river right. With the sudden stop and the whole boat swinging around behind me, I did a clean dive over port bow.

Tsuga8 said:

Let me see if I understand correctly. Say you're facing upstream in an eddy on river right (so the shore is on your left). Is your pole on your left (shore) side, or on your right (towards the main current)? Assuming a straight reach with an eddyline parallel to the main current, how much angle does your boat have relevant to the current? Almost sounds like setting a ferry angle to come back into the eddy as opposed to towards the opposite bank?

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My pole plant would be on the eddy side, whether exiting a bank or midstream eddy. The ferry angle relative to the eddy line is low. I want the stern to cross just before the bow. If I try to cross the eddy line bow first, even bow light, the current will try to spin me downstream.

Glenn MacGrady said:

I'm a bit unclear, Rick, about how the stern crosses the eddy line before the bow when breaking out of an eddy, which would be quite unusual when using a paddle. Is breaking out of an eddy with a pole a different technique?

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The pole's force to the canoe is very different than that of a paddle. You are in physical contact with the bottom of the river. The pole is a magnificent pushing machine. I can sneak up parallel to the eddy line and then push across it, stern slightly first, with control and confidence.

I am very much a novice poler so take these thoughts with that in mind. So much of what we do is hard to describe. Poling is a useful complement to paddling. It opens doors.

@RickR - I would encourage you to try exiting the eddy bow first, taking advantage of all the momentum aided by the eddy, and immediately edge hard on the stream side to bring the bow up. A pole plant on the downstream side as you carve your turn into the current keeps you moving up. It's an aggressive move that pays well, once you've mastered it.

Thanks for the explanation, Rick, that makes sense.

Steve, it sounds like you're describing a turn almost broadside to the current, but perhaps the angle of boat to current is much shallower than the word 'turn' implies? But if I follow, your pole is on the main-current side in the eddy as you build speed, which becomes the downstream side as you come out of the eddy? Or do you switch sides with the pole as you're leaving the eddy?

Tsuga8 said:

Thanks for the explanation, Rick, that makes sense.

Steve, it sounds like you're describing a turn almost broadside to the current, but perhaps the angle of boat to current is much shallower than the word 'turn' implies? But if I follow, your pole is on the main-current side in the eddy as you build speed, which becomes the downstream side as you come out of the eddy? Or do you switch sides with the pole as you're leaving the eddy?

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I'll try to describe it better. I was actually thinking about describing this as I was doing it yesterday.

Picture a midstream eddy below a rock. If I want to go up to my left of the rock, I'll push off on my right, in the eddy. The angle of attack will look almost like I'm going to peel out - and that's exactly what will happen (poorly) if I don't take immediate action as my bow crosses the line. As I come up out of my "power pole" push, I switch sides with the pole and unweight my right foot and edge the left side of the boat hard.

Here's where you have to get aggressive and commit. If I blow the pole plant, I may very well be quickly out of the boat. If the current is at all pushy, my pole plant will be pretty far from the canoe and I will even be leaning over the rail. Another "rule" broken. But this gives the leverage to drive my left foot forward and carve into the current.

That first push in the eddy has to be solid, and the switch has to be in the modern technique as described by Harry Rock. It all has to happen quickly and fluidly, and requires a double ended pole - along, of course, with a good knowledge of the river bottom where the pole will plant.

Sounds intense! Given that I'm usually by myself poling, I might hesitate to try such a move. But maybe with other folks around

Tsuga8 said:

Sounds intense! Given that I'm usually by myself poling, I might hesitate to try such a move. But maybe with other folks around

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Yeah, don't take dangerous risks pushing your limits when alone. But I've done a lot of learning by mistake on features just above pools where a swim is easy to recover from. Sometimes with witnesses, sometimes not.

Something to think about is a canoe pole is also called a "setting" pole. If I remember correctly it is called that because you "set" yourself in the eddy as opposed to doing an eddy turn. I would think it more closely resembles a ferry then a turn so you don't want too much angle relative to the current. The more bow light you are the less hull can be grabbed by the current and the more weathervaning you will get from the stern.

RickR said:

I can sneak up parallel to the eddy line and then push across it, stern slightly first, with control and confidence.

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Ah, now I get it. However, as Idaho Steve points out, you will not have any foward momentum as you cross the eddy line into the current. But if it works . . . .

Steve in Idaho said:

I would encourage you to try exiting the eddy bow first, taking advantage of all the momentum aided by the eddy, and immediately edge hard on the stream side to bring the bow up.

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That's how I would envisage breaking out of an eddy with a pole—just like with a paddle into an an upstream ferry. Power out of the eddy at about a 10:30 o'clock angle and then, instead of staying at that angle to ferry across the river, turn the canoe head on into the current.

Steve in Idaho said:

If I want to go up to my left of the rock, I'll push off on my right, in the eddy.

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Steve, why not push off on your left so you can just stay on that side for your power/heel turn into the current? Can't get enough momentum with a left side push? Harder to get the proper angle with a left side push?

lowangle al said:

Something to think about is a canoe pole is also called a "setting" pole. If I remember correctly it is called that because you "set" yourself in the eddy as opposed to doing an eddy turn.

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"Setting" is how canoe and and kayak paddlers used to enter eddies before Milo Duffek and others invented the eddy turn around 1950. You would slowly back paddle slightly past the eddy, then angle the stern toward the eddy, and finally back paddle strongly out of the current into the eddy. The sustaining virtue of back-setting into an eddy is that you don't have to peel out to exit it; you can just paddle forward since you are already pointing downstream.

Glenn MacGrady said:

Steve, why not push off on your left so you can just stay on that side for your power/heel turn into the current? Can't get enough momentum with a left side push? Harder to get the proper angle with a left side push?

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It can be done that way, and if I happen to approach the rock with the pole already on that side without stopping or if there's a deep hole below the rock that I can't find the bottom I might. But it's often easier to to plant the pole in the eddy water, and a hard push off that side naturally angles the boat to the left side of the rock.

Glenn MacGrady said:

"Setting" is how canoe and and kayak paddlers used to enter eddies before Milo Duffek and others invented the eddy turn around 1950. You would slowly back paddle slightly past the eddy, then angle the stern toward the eddy, and finally back paddle strongly out of the current into the eddy. The sustaining virtue of back-setting into an eddy is that you don't have to peel out to exit it; you can just paddle forward since you are already pointing downstream.

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But peeling out is so much more fun! I live for the peel out.

Speaking of peeling out....
I prefer pushing off with the pole on the eddy side again, so I can then lift the pole forward and over for a crossdraw/Duffek? into the current. With the pole, that's much easier than doing it onside. So much more leverage, with less effort.