Installing gunnels?

[DeniseO30]

Hi Brian !

No offense taken, or given.
I just wanted to give more thoughts to my reasonings. That ! I believe was the original reason for the post !

I've been very impressed with your beautifully built canoes, and hold your opinions in high regard ! Even though we may differ at times ! And yes you are right ! There are many Right ways to build a canoe !

Now, more thoughts, and questions.

Brian. Do you hang your seats, from the inwhales ? Guessing not, as the 45 degree angle, of the bottom of the inwhale might be a challenge.

What has always bothered me about just gluing the gunnels, on a stripper, is you are relying on the Soft Cedar between two layers of glass, to hold things together. The screw method, holds both sides of the hull , in my case to the inwhale.
Since I hang my seats from the inwhale, and I'm well over 200#, I need the security the screws provide.

Many wood canvas Builders insist on staying with Sitka Spruce for the in-rails, spruce is very light very strong but very expensive. We used AYC (Alaskan yellow cedar) it's nothing like Cedar as we know it and much more like Spruce as we know it, but yellow and very pungent smelling when cut. I used it for the in rails of my 15ft and probably will use it again if I build anymore canoes. weight savings over a hardwood in-rail? probably not a whole lot

 

[Jim Dodd]

Many wood canvas Builders insist on staying with Sitka Spruce for the in-rails, spruce is very light very strong but very expensive. We used AYC (Alaskan yellow cedar) it's nothing like Cedar as we know it and much more like Spruce as we know it, but yellow and very pungent smelling when cut. I used it for the in rails of my 15ft and probably will use it again if I build anymore canoes. weight savings over a hardwood in-rail? probably not a whole lot

Hi Denise !

By the way Welcome to the site !

I wasn't clear enough ! I was referring to the Cedar, used for strips, not gunnels. I use Western red for strips. Just to clear that up !

Jim

 

[Cruiser]

Jim, this will be the first time I try a boat without the seats hung from the gunnels. The first used a uniwale and the other 2 used glued on gunnels. I think that the one thing that gets lost sometimes, on a new build, is the possibilities for innovation and change, based on the application. On a first build, creativity can be a bit dangerous and I will concede that staying in the middle of the road is likely the best course for the first one.

I learned something on my first build, I had just joined BearMountain and had been following yours and others posts at the time. There was a discussion that mentioned uniwales and it really resonated with me as being elegant and efficient. I had an opportunity to talk to a local builder I was visiting, and suggested I was going to try a uniwale .... he laughed and said " you can read about that stuff and it sounds good, but you will never see anyone actually doing it ... it won't work". I was glad I had the support of members like you, who offered advice and thoughts, it lead me to going ahead with the uniwales and completing a successful build. What I learned is that after all the discussion and research, doing what makes sense for your goals is usually the right path to follow.

JD
"What has always bothered me about just gluing the gunnels, on a stripper, is you are relying on the Soft Cedar between two layers of glass, to hold things together. The screw method, holds both sides of the hull , in my case to the inwale."

This is a good example of bringing application into the discussion .... I am angling to come in under 40#s with this build and my gunnels are 5/16" thick x 5/8" deep, it just doesn't seem enough to give the screw a good bite ... if I had wider/thicker gunnels it starts to make more sense. So in this instance, I would suggest using screws on your wider gunnels, makes sense from an install PoV .... however with my 5/16" gunnels I would not feel confident trying screws, so the epoxy makes most sense. Two different goals, two different attachments.

Since my design goal includes an aggressive weight goal, I am scrutinizing anything added to the hull .... the finished hull is sitting at 30#s ( I believe yours is almost the same), full size gunnels run ~10#s and blow the entire budget, I will be weighing the slimmed down gunnels I used (not quite done yet), but expect them to be ~3#s.

Using thinner gunnels invariably leads to adding some material in the seat area, to facilitate hanging seats ... so on this build I have committed to minimum gunnels (they taper to just under .5" at the bow and stern) and a seat capacity ~300#s (not for me, but the intended paddler). I will be adding a cleat system, which I feel will handle the weight and make best use of weight expense ... time will tell.

The attachment system you choose needs to be consistent with the materials you choose ... and the goals for the build .... sometimes you need to get creative. Creative is sometimes good, sometimes bad .... it's how we move forward.

Brian

 

[Jim Dodd]

Ozarkpaddler1

I recommend screws, and glue . Dry fit the decks and inwhales with the screws. Remove the screws, Lather up the decks and inwhales, with epoxy mixed with filler. The screws will align everything, as well as put clamping pressure between the hull and inwhale. A few spring clamps is all that is needed. You can do both sides the same day.

 

[Jim Dodd]

one more pic

 

[DeniseO30]

Jim, this will be the first time I try a boat without the seats hung from the gunnels. The first used a uniwale and the other 2 used glued on gunnels. I think that the one thing that gets lost sometimes, on a new build, is the possibilities for innovation and change, based on the application. On a first build, creativity can be a bit dangerous and I will concede that staying in the middle of the road is likely the best course for the first one.

I learned something on my first build, I had just joined BearMountain and had been following yours and others posts at the time. There was a discussion that mentioned uniwales and it really resonated with me as being elegant and efficient. I had an opportunity to talk to a local builder I was visiting, and suggested I was going to try a uniwale .... he laughed and said " you can read about that stuff and it sounds good, but you will never see anyone actually doing it ... it won't work". I was glad I had the support of members like you, who offered advice and thoughts, it lead me to going ahead with the uniwales and completing a successful build. What I learned is that after all the discussion and research, doing what makes sense for your goals is usually the right path to follow.

JD
"What has always bothered me about just gluing the gunnels, on a stripper, is you are relying on the Soft Cedar between two layers of glass, to hold things together. The screw method, holds both sides of the hull , in my case to the inwale."

This is a good example of bringing application into the discussion .... I am angling to come in under 40#s with this build and my gunnels are 5/16" thick x 5/8" deep, it just doesn't seem enough to give the screw a good bite ... if I had wider/thicker gunnels it starts to make more sense. So in this instance, I would suggest using screws on your wider gunnels, makes sense from an install PoV .... however with my 5/16" gunnels I would not feel confident trying screws, so the epoxy makes most sense. Two different goals, two different attachments.

Since my design goal includes an aggressive weight goal, I am scrutinizing anything added to the hull .... the finished hull is sitting at 30#s ( I believe yours is almost the same), full size gunnels run ~10#s and blow the entire budget, I will be weighing the slimmed down gunnels I used (not quite done yet), but expect them to be ~3#s.

Using thinner gunnels invariably leads to adding some material in the seat area, to facilitate hanging seats ... so on this build I have committed to minimum gunnels (they taper to just under .5" at the bow and stern) and a seat capacity ~300#s (not for me, but the intended paddler). I will be adding a cleat system, which I feel will handle the weight and make best use of weight expense ... time will tell.

The attachment system you choose needs to be consistent with the materials you choose ... and the goals for the build .... sometimes you need to get creative. Creative is sometimes good, sometimes bad .... it's how we move forward.

Brian

Well if you want to get even more obsessive and not use screws you can use what are called rivet and rove fastening. Truly, most of the weight comes from the epoxy in glass. If I may ask what is the length of this forty-pound canoe?
This was my first strip build. Gil Patrick's puddle duck 14.5' solo.

And my Prospector 16ft I never weighed any of them, but the prospector weighs about the same as my 15 foot wood canvas. I was taught the proper way to roll a canoe onto your shoulders and how the load one end onto a rack so I've never really struggled with weight of the canoes even the 18 foot wood canvas I had wasn't too difficult to handle although I could not lift it outright. it

 

[Cruiser]

Hi Denise .... the boat is a 16'3" modified Freedom Solo. I used standard 1/4" bead and cove WRC/NWC strips with a solid sanding during shaping, 1 layer of 6 oz FG inside and out, with standard 3 coats of epoxy outside, 2 inside.

The sanded hull weighed in at 18.6 #s, outside glass 6#, inside glass 5.5# .... I am tracking the weights on this build and learned that the FG sheath doesn't weigh as much as I had initially thought .... having hard numbers to look at, helps figure where you may be able to save weight without compromising the canoe.

Brian

 

[DeniseO30]

Hi Denise .... the boat is a 16'3" modified Freedom Solo. I used standard 1/4" bead and cove WRC/NWC strips with a solid sanding during shaping, 1 layer of 6 oz FG inside and out, with standard 3 coats of epoxy outside, 2 inside.

The sanded hull weighed in at 18.6 #s, outside glass 6#, inside glass 5.5# .... I am tracking the weights on this build and learned that the FG sheath doesn't weigh as much as I had initially thought .... having hard numbers to look at, helps figure where you may be able to save weight without compromising the canoe.

Brian

Brian, I'm betting you're actually using electronic digital scales too! I don't think there are many strip boats out there that do not have double and triple glass on the bottom inside to prevent "oil canning" (bottom flex) but most of us don't know that until we start using the canoes, hopefully yours won't need it. Or be running white water like we did in my prospector and split it down the middle! LOL

 

[Cruiser]

If you are running whitewater then I suspect a wooden boat wouldn't be my first choice, there are much better choices. I can't imagine a standard stripper "Oil Canning" because a single layer of 6 oz glass was used. I have 4 that I know don't flex even under full load and I suspect that some people here may routinely use a partial layer on the football for abrasion, but the routine is a single layer inside and out.

 

[DeniseO30]

If you are running whitewater then I suspect a wooden boat wouldn't be my first choice, there are much better choices. I can't imagine a standard stripper "Oil Canning" because a single layer of 6 oz glass was used. I have 4 that I know don't flex even under full load and I suspect that some people here may routinely use a partial layer on the football for abrasion, but the routine is a single layer inside and out.

It was actually the blond on a rubber raft going by, my son wanted to get the canoe closer to, and he did an unannounced draw of the bow, took us right over a sharp Rock. Opened er up with a zipper like sound Lol. (Wasn't funny then) even though I've been in the HVAC business all my life after that day, I really have an appreciation for duct tape

I've watched a birch bark run through Class 2,. They were running Whitewater long before fiber glass was invented.

A strip canoe is actually a fiberglass canoe although, many of us tend to forget that.

It's all a matter of choices of how we use or abuse our boats, and that was really the only time we hit water over class 3. After that, we made the prospector better than she was before she broke, even did a graphite bottom.

 

[Jim Dodd]

I think Brian has enough cloth on his solo ! 6 oz inside and out, should be plenty.

I'm rough on my hulls, and it's not Class II rapids !

Jim

 

[DeniseO30]

The late Bill mason was my inspiration.. watching vids like song of the paddle, water walker.. I was hooked.. and wasn't going use wood or wood composite only on still water, "break em, fix em"

I don't want anyone think I'm here to be know it all or start a wizzing contest..my apologies, no malicious intent!

 

[ozarkpaddler1]

So, now a couple more questions. To the builders who have glued gunnels - how long did you leave them clamped? How long does it take for the epoxy to gain sufficient strength to hold the gunnels to the curve of the hull?

For the builders who prefer screws - do you counter sink the screws and cover them, (plug the holes) ? Do you add any epoxy or varnish to the screw holes to seal them up before or after installing the screws?

Thanks John R

 

[Cruiser]

I fall into the epoxy on the gunnels camp. The shop is kept at 18C at least when I do epoxy work and the job is planned so that the epoxy can setup overnight, after that it is strong enough to remove clamps and be worked on/with.

Just a couple of details, I put a line of 1.5" painters tape about an 1/8" below where the gunnel runs before doing the epoxy work. Once the gunnels are clamped up, I use a paper towel or a gloved finger to remove most of the excess epoxy from the bottom of the gunnel .... the tape keeps this wiping off the hull .... this saves a lot of work, soft epoxy is easier to remove than hard epoxy. Also, if you use this, make sure you pull the tape after you are finished ... you want it off before the epoxy sets.

Brian

 

[Jim Dodd]

A couple of days is long enough, according to most builders. A week in my book.

I just use screws for the inwhales. The screws, are driven flush with the hull, and then sealed by the outwhale, that is epoxied on..

Check the pics on page 2.

Great tip from Cruiser. Keeping things clean, saves a lot of work later !

Jim

 

[Fitz]

I spent last Saturday swearing at whoever thought it was a good idea to plug the screw holes on the mahogany outwales of an Old Town canoe. I had to cut the perfectly good outwales off in pieces.

 

[DeniseO30]

I spent last Saturday swearing at whoever thought it was a good idea to plug the screw holes on the mahogany outwales of an Old Town canoe. I had to cut the perfectly good outwales off in pieces.

Hi Fitz! I even use Phillips screw heads because they are easier to drill the head off Yes, lining up the slot with the grain used to be the tell tale of "good craftpersonship" my legacy will be "she used phillips screws!" lol Then there were the teak bungs (plugs) on my 30ft sailboat handrails not to tell the story kinda tells itself just by mentioning it... LOL

 

[alsg]

I spent last Saturday swearing at whoever thought it was a good idea to plug the screw holes on the mahogany outwales of an Old Town canoe. I had to cut the perfectly good outwales off in pieces.

Too late now, but you probably could have drilled out the plugs to get to the screws.

 

[Boatman53]

I modified a spade bit to drill out bungs, as I deal with them all the time on the big boats, often having to remove a couple hundred at a time. I'll try an remember to take some pics when I head to the shop next.
Jim

 

[Fitz]

We tried multiple types of bits. The bungs were glued in. Bungs should be installed with varnish only. Unearthed the screw head only to find the slot full of glue. By the time one screw was unearthed, the mahogany gunwale was all "bunged" up, and likely beyond repair. There was no way I was installing bungs to try and make it look pretty again anyway, so slice and dice a perfectly good mahogany outwale.