Gunnels

[TheIndian]

Hi...was introduced to this site from my buddy Coldfeet...lotta great stuff here! (Thx bro!)

I have the hull of a Mad River Freedom (1995) and am just beginning to replace all of the wood trim including seats, thwarts, decks and gunnels.

I have recently cut and shaped the 4 ash gunnels and am now looking to treat them properly for outdoor exposure. Would love to hear what others are using/doing. My intention is to stain the gunnels a darker color as well. Can I use an all-in-one stain/water retarder? Or better to stain with one product, then water retard with another?

Your help appreciated as I begin this project.

Chris

 

[Jim Dodd]

I'm just about to finish just such a project.

Gunnels will rot on the hull side before the outside.

Here's what I'm doing.
Beings on this canoe, I'm not gluing the gunnels to the hull (I usually do).
I coated the hull side of the gunnels with epoxy with a little filler, just to thicken it slightly.

Now that I've screwed the gunnels to the canoe, I'll shape, sand and stain with ordinary oil stain.

Once that has dried, I will coat with Teak Watco. Some will use Spar varnish, but when you scratch the varnish, it leaves a white mark. No marks with Watco .

Others may chime in , as builders all develop their own methods. It's just up to you which you like.

By the way ! Welcome to this Great site !

Jim

 

[Canotrouge]

I did a bunch of different techniques, but the one I prefer with new install, is spar varnish, Epifanes, that I apply this way, I first "soak" the gunnels with BLO, and then the next day, I apply 2 coats of Epifanes diluted @ 50% with mineral spirit(wait 24hrs between coats and likely sand with 400 grit) Then I do 2 more coats with it diluted to 25%( 25% mineral spirit) and then an other coat or two full strength!! Let dry and instal!! When I do that, my gunnels are ready to install, so all shaped and drilled/countersunk. But sometime I just saturate them with Tung oil....

 

[pblanc]

I too have gone to treating the hidden faces of the inwales and outwales (the faces that will contact the hull) with epoxy which I feel is more durable than varnish or polyurethane and much more durable than oil. I use a "penetrating" epoxy, specifically System Three Clear Coat.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both bright finishes (varnish or urethanes) and oils. Oil finishes require enough dedication to reapply the oil as often as needed. If your canoe is stored outside and/or sees a lot of use, this can be several times per year. It is easy to say that you will keep up with it, but many do not despite good intentions to do so. Reapplying oil finishes is pretty quick and easy though, as long as you make yourself do it.

Bright finishes are more durable. Particularly durable is 2 or 3 coats of a clear penetrating epoxy followed by several coats of varnish or polyurethane. But if your canoe sees heavy use, especially whitewater use where gunwale abrasion is much more likely, the bright finish will get scratched up. Reapplication of bright finish is more involved usually involving sanding, down to bare wood if the finish is extensively scratched or checkered. Initial application is also more involved.

My approach has often been to use bright finishes on gunwales for flat water boats and oils for whitewater boat gunwales. I will often finish thwarts, yokes, seat frames, and seat hangers with bright finish as these components are more protected than the gunwales.

I have used a wide variety of oils over the years including Watco exterior, Watco Teak, Deks Olje, Gunwale Guard, pure Tung oils, and "Tung oil finishes". I would advise staying away from Gunwale Guard but the others can all give good results.

Some people add stain to the penetrating oil if that is what they plan to finish the gunwales with. I prefer to apply the stain first and get the wood darkened to my taste and then apply oil. I have found that Watco Teak oil will slightly darken ash over time.

Make sure you predrill and countersink all of your gunwale screw holes before finishing.

 

[cflcanoe]

My way is to use Watco dark walnut for color then Watco Tung oil. Always takes me a few weeks to oil the rails before installing. Making sure that I have all the oil that can in to the hull side of the rails.

Last year sanded and reoiled the gunwales on a Wildfire that had been stored outside for two years by the previous owner. The out side of the rails were in bad shape. But the side that is against the hull was in very good shape.

 

[Boatman53]

Hi Theindian, where are you located? There might be someone nearby to help. If you are on Long Island you are welcome to stop by my shop.
Jim

 

[TheIndian]

Wow...glad I created this thread! Lotta of things you guys opened my eyes to! (the details of what stain/oil to use can be put on hold for now LOL.)

First...never would have thought to predrill and countersink before conditioning the gunnels. Thx for the idea.

Second...was not aware of an epoxy that needs to go between gunnel and hull. This is done to prevent rot on hull-side of gunnel, correct? Epoxy would be cured and dried before installing gunnels, right?

Third...I thought gunnels were only screwed together with hull sandwiched in between. I would rather not glue gunnels to hull unless it provides something I am unaware of.

Yeah, I local Jim...you on the Peconic, right? Thx.

Well...off to buy some clamps...any additional pointers always welcome!

Thanks you guys...this may turn in to a lengthy thread Can't wait to learn more!

 

[coldfeet]

Chris, forgot to tell you about Jim out east. He was the one who worked on the Monarch and built that chitty chitty Bang Bang car i told you about. Jim, Chris was the guy who paddled my Monarch with a single blade really well. Good luck with the canoe, I'm off to my summer job. Will try to see Robin one Sunday up in CT. PS, nice name, TheIndian

 

[Mihun09]

Ash usually doesn't take stain well or hasn't for me at least. I don't use epoxy first on the wood, just a good quality varnish, Epifanes, several coats on the inside before final assembly. I'll drill tapered screw holes with the countersink then remove the rails to finish them before final install, you can trim and shape the ends off the boat that way as well, much easier.

Karin

 

[Jim Dodd]

Second...was not aware of an epoxy that needs to go between gunnel and hull. This is done to prevent rot on hull-side of gunnel, correct? Epoxy would be cured and dried before installing gunnels, right?

Third...I thought gunnels were only screwed together with hull sandwiched in between. I would rather not glue gunnels to hull unless it provides something I am unaware of.

Yes let the epoxy cure before installing gunnels to hull. IF you want to remove them later.

I like to glue and screw my inwhales, and glue on the outwhales. Benefits in my eyes, no screws showing, searline and gunnels are sealed. And a stronger gunnel !

I don't allow moisture to get in this way, therefore no need to take them off again, due to rot. Given normal care.

The hull I'm repairing for a friend, Is 12 yrs old. Screw holes and the wood next to the hull is so rotted, the gunnels fell apart, as I removed the screws.

I understand the thinking of wanting to be able to easily remove the gunnels ! My theory is to prolong their life to the point, the rest of the hull is near gone.

Just my reasoning !

Gunnels cut to cap the shearline. Thickened epoxy will coat the hull side of both inwhales and outwhales.

Deck is also epoxied in place.
Jim

 

[TheIndian]

Wow Jim D...that is some amazing craft you have there!
Looking back, I don't think I made it clear that I have a Royalex Hull...nothing nearly as beautiful as your friends boat there.

When I acquired the Freedom, the outwales were screwed and countersunk, not the inwales. Ultimately, would this come down to personal preference and aesthetics?

Have to run out now...when I return, I will post some pics...thx.

 

[Jim Dodd]

Sorry for the confusion ! That's one of my canoes, and the gunnels are just to illustrate how I do my gunnels !

I realize you are not going to glue yours to the Royalex. But coating the hull side of your gunnels should prolong their life.

Jim

 

[TheIndian]

OK Jim...thx. Beautiful boat you have there!

1 - (I want gunnels to be a darker color so...) Better to epoxy hull-side, let dry, then stain, correct?

2 - Jim...why an oil stain...then the Watco Teak as you mention in your first reply? Is your stain for interior use only? .

Thanks again!

 

[BWCA66]

I know it's a lot of personal preference but I will never glue on another gunnel. Prefer to coat very well in Watch Teak oil (all sides) and screw in using quality stainless screws. Whether you screw inner or outer or both is up to you. I screw the inner on first going through the hull then go threw the inner to attach the outer. End up then with a few at the ends going in from the outside throufh both and into the deck. Predrilling, countersink and waxing every screw is a must in my opinion.

 

[TheIndian]

Thanks BWCA66...like you, the last thing I want to do is glue gunnels to the hull. I might epoxy the hull-side of gunnel however.

After staining, I am considering the Watco Teak oil as well. However I read that it hardens when dry. Will the hardened Teak oil then prevent the wood from absorbing future applications of Teak?

 

[Jim Dodd]

OK Jim...thx. Beautiful boat you have there!

1 - (I want gunnels to be a darker color so...) Better to epoxy hull-side, let dry, then stain, correct?

2 - Jim...why an oil stain...then the Watco Teak as you mention in your first reply? Is your stain for interior use only? .

Thanks again!

1. Correct. I found that if I thicken the epoxy a little, it doesn't run down the side of the gunnel. A mess prevented, as cleaning up epoxy on the sides of the gunnel I want to stain, is not good.

2. I'm trying to duplicate the original color. and Teak is too light. I used Minwax's Golden Oak oil stain, right now it needs another coat, on my light Ash. Then I'll apply Watco Teak. Watco Teak takes a long time to dry, my only complaint.

In the future if it needs recoating, just lightly scuff, and reapply.

Jim

 

[TheIndian]

Since this is Royalex...it should be ok to use the same screw holes in the hull, right?

 

[Boatman53]

If you can find them, but I wouldn't stress over it.
Jim

 

[Robin]

Since this is Royalex...it should be ok to use the same screw holes in the hull, right?

Don't worry about the screw holes, trying to find the old holes would be tough. Your better off with new holes rather than almost hitting the old hole,

I've stripped royalex hulls that already had replacement gunnels on them and there was absolutely no sign of weakness in the royalex from the additionall holes.

 

[TheIndian]

Thx Boatman, thx Robin...

One more question for you experts before I start drilling...after I stain and oil each gunnel, do you think the wood will expand somewhat (length, width and height)?