Outer Vinyl Coating Of RoyalEx Canoe

[MidwestCanoer]

SO (all caps are purposeful). The reason I feel the vinyl was so easy to peel of was because it was sitting in warmer temps as well as under the sun for who knows how long.

I went back to the garage to test the integrity of the canoe. All is good with that. It gives just as a canoe normally would. Just recoils but it isn't soft anywhere and there are no major cracks.

When I started to sand down the edges of the remaining vinyl, that's when something interesting happened. It makes sense as to why it happened since it is a form of plastic. Plastic under friction is exposed to heat. The heat, like the sun's warmth, expanded and loosened the vinyl away from the ABS and the rest of the boat.

I did a test on video of which will be shown in the next video. But do seriously note, unless you're either intending on taking the entirety of the vinyl off I do not recommend sanding the vinyl unless you're doing it by hand with loads of friction less. And even that, I'm not sure would turn out too well.

I have a new bare spot from where the vinyl basically heated and melted. A pain in the butt.

 

[pblanc]

I believe the third letter is a Q, not an O or 0.

If so, you can input the HIN here and get a lot of info:

Free HIN number Decoder for any Boat, Hull, or Vessel - HINDecoder.com

hindecoder.com

The canoe was manufactured in July 1994 by Watermark Sports Inc. (which is probably Dagger Canoe) and the model is speculated to be a Reflection 15 or Passage. Measure the length and max width (beam) of the canoe to zero in on the model issue.

I, too, have never seen a Royalex canoe peeling vinyl. I would concur with coating the non-vinyl areas with epoxy before painting. This would give a protective abrasion layer over the ABS when the paint eventually scratches off. I have no experience with paints for Royalex, but Mike McCrea and pblanc have.

The big holes drilled in the stems of the canoe are a mystery to me. Something must have been attached to them. I suppose they would need to be plugged with something, which others might recommend.

Yes, the third character in the HIN is a Q. DAQ is the manufacturers identification code for Dagger Canoe. It will now come up as Watermark because Dagger was acquired by Watermark so the MIC transferred. And if you look at the video at the 4:10 time mark, you will see a Dagger sticker on the side of the boat. So no doubt about who made the canoe.

As for the model, if you look at the third photo posted 8 posts earlier, you can see a model identification sticker near the stem of the canoe. That looks to me to most likely say "Legend" although I can't be certain. It doesn't look like a word with enough letters to say "Reflection" and it looks to me as if the last letter is an "N" although again, I can't be certain. The OP can surely tell us what it says.

 

[pblanc]

The first, second, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh eighth, and tenth photos you posted above all show what appears to me to be perforations through the outer solid layer of ABS of the Royalex exposing the foam core. Most are circular. Some are linear. The foam core of Royalex is also ABS but formulated in such a way that it is a thermoset plastic that expands when cooked in an oven, and then retains its shape when it cools over or inside of a mold.

Rest assured I have seen and worked on many Royalex canoes including a fleet of livery boats that spent the entire Summer months sitting upside down on trailers year after year in the pretty hot climate of southern Indiana. I have also sanded on plenty of Royalex boats and found that it usually takes quite a bit of time and effort to sand off the outer vinyl layer. And I have never seen prolonged sun exposure or the heat generated from the friction of an electric sander loosen vinyl to the extent it could be peeled off like that. There is something else going on but I can't tell you what it is. If Mike, Glenn, and I have never seen that kind of thing it is the result of something very unusual and probably unique to that boat.

The amount of fiberglass cloth that would be required depends on the width of the fabric you buy. One yard of fabric that is 60" wide will be 3 feet by five feet, obviously. It also depends on whether you cut the fabric on a bias. Bias cuts always require more fabric. Bias cutting will facilitate the fabric lying down over a sharply curved surface like over a stem. But you can probably cover most of the hull cutting the cloth along the fibers of the weft and weave and if you need to cover over the stems use a separate piece of fabric cut on the bias. So if you measure the outer circumference and the length of hull that needs to be reinforced you will be able to get a reasonable estimate of how much fabric you would need. Judging from what I see in your photos and videos I am guessing two yards of 60" wide fabric would be sufficient but I can't say for certain.

Regarding pretreatment of ABS with flame oxidation, yes West System conducts test of adhesion of their epoxies on a variety of substrates and their data does show some enhancement of bond strength to ABS with flame oxidation compared to without. But the bond strength without preoxidation of G Flex to ABS is really pretty good to the extent that they say that flame oxidation of ABS is "optional". It is easy enough to do with an inexpensive hand-held propane torch. If you do flame oxidation you should do so within 30 minutes of epoxy application and the less time the better, because the effect is transitory. My recommendation would be to go ahead and flame treat the exposed solid areas of ABS but not areas of exposed foam core. The little interstices of the exposed cells of the foam core will provide plenty of "footing" for a strong mechanical bond with or without flame oxidation, and the foam core is easy to melt if you linger a bit too long over it with the propane torch.

Do the flame oxidation in dim light so you can clearly see the tip of the inner blue cone of the flame because you want that tip to just touch the surface of the hull as you pass over it. And make sure you allow enough time for your denatured alcohol to fully evaporate, especially any that runs between the hull and the gunwale skirt, before you take a torch to the boat. Otherwise you might wind up with a canoe flambe (don't ask me how I know this).

 

[MidwestCanoer]

I'm not going to lie, I am not boat savvy and don't completely understand the fourth paragraph all too well. I'll have to re-read it a few times and google stuff.

For the perforations, how would you recommend patching or fixing them? I've considered laying the fiberglass over the vast majority of exposed ABS then using G-Flex epoxy. Sanding and applying a second coat if it's not thick enough. Sanding again, and painting.

 

[pblanc]

I'm not going to lie, I am not boat savvy and don't completely understand the fourth paragraph all too well. I'll have to re-read it a few times and google stuff.

For the perforations, how would you recommend patching or fixing them? I've considered laying the fiberglass over the vast majority of exposed ABS then using G-Flex epoxy. Sanding and applying a second coat if it's not thick enough. Sanding again, and painting.

As for flame oxidation it will modestly enhance bond strength of G Flex to ABS but it is not vital. I have applied skid plates to a bunch of canoes using G Flex without doing this and they have held up fine. All you need to have to do this is one of those torch attachments that screws onto the top of a liquid propane canister that you can find at just about any hardware store.

Exposed foam core is easy to recognize. It looks a bit like Swiss cheese and it has a very rough surface unlike the smooth surface of the solid ABS layers of Royalex. I prefer to fill in any areas of exposed foam core with G Flex that is thickened a bit with silica powder. You mix the resin and the hardener in equal volumes, which can be done by eye, and then sprinkle in the silica powder and stir it in until the mixture is moderately thickened, say to a Mayonnaise consistency. You often have to apply a little more epoxy as the mixture settles into all the little crevices of the open cells of the foam core. Once the epoxy has cured you can sand it fair and flush with the hull to restore the normal contour of the hull. You can treat deep gouges and dents in the same way. You can mix up G Flex in any size volume by eye so you can mix very small batches which is convenient when doing this type of work. I would work on only one area at a time, turning and supporting the boat in a position such that the epoxy settles down into the defect. Once the epoxy has cured "green" so that it no longer runs or sags, you can reposition the boat and work on another area.

Fabric such as fiberglass should be wet out using unthickened G Flex. I apply a thin coat of epoxy to the hull before laying the cloth on then you need to apply enough epoxy to the fabric to fully wet it out, meaning all of the fibers are saturated. There will usually still be a significant texture to the surface after the initial wetting out application of epoxy has cured. So if you want a smooth surface you will need to apply more epoxy, although much less will be required for this second application. If there are any sags, runs, or surface irregularities after this application of epoxy cures, you can wet sand the cured epoxy before painting.

 

[MidwestCanoer]

As for flame oxidation it will modestly enhance bond strength of G Flex to ABS but it is not vital. I have applied skid plates to a bunch of canoes using G Flex without doing this and they have held up fine. All you need to have to do this is one of those torch attachments that screws onto the top of a liquid propane canister that you can find at just about any hardware store.

Exposed foam core is easy to recognize. It looks a bit like Swiss cheese and it has a very rough surface unlike the smooth surface of the solid ABS layers of Royalex. I prefer to fill in any areas of exposed foam core with G Flex that is thickened a bit with silica powder. You mix the resin and the hardener in equal volumes, which can be done by eye, and then sprinkle in the silica powder and stir it in until the mixture is moderately thickened, say to a Mayonnaise consistency. You often have to apply a little more epoxy as the mixture settles into all the little crevices of the open cells of the foam core. Once the epoxy has cured you can sand it fair and flush with the hull to restore the normal contour of the hull. You can treat deep gouges and dents in the same way. You can mix up G Flex in any size volume by eye so you can mix very small batches which is convenient when doing this type of work. I would work on only one area at a time, turning and supporting the boat in a position such that the epoxy settles down into the defect. Once the epoxy has cured "green" so that it no longer runs or sags, you can reposition the boat and work on another area.

Fabric such as fiberglass should be wet out using unthickened G Flex. I apply a thin coat of epoxy to the hull before laying the cloth on then you need to apply enough epoxy to the fabric to fully wet it out, meaning all of the fibers are saturated. There will usually still be a significant texture to the surface after the initial wetting out application of epoxy has cured. So if you want a smooth surface you will need to apply more epoxy, although much less will be required for this second application. If there are any sags, runs, or surface irregularities after this application of epoxy cures, you can wet sand the cured epoxy before painting.

"Exposed foam core is easy to recognize. It looks a bit like Swiss cheese and it has a very rough surface unlike the smooth surface of the solid ABS layers of Royalex."

The perforations and the dryness of the outer ABS kind of resemble foam core with the way you described it but it is at the literal level or depth of the actual internal foam core. It's still superficial and only dips a little bit.

"Once the epoxy has cured "green" ..."

Do you mean the epoxy clears up and shows the green undercoat of the actual ABS?


Seeing the open naked area of the ABS do you think 32 fl oz will be enough to cover the entire (non PVC covered bottom) of the hull with fiberglass and be able to give a second coat to smooth it out?

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I'm not a repair expert, but I'll summarize what I think Mike and Pete are recommending.

To repeat, Royalex is a five layer sandwich. On the outside is a thin hard layer of vinyl, which you have partially peeled off. Next is a thin hard layer of ABS plastic. In the middle is a thick layer of foamed ABS, which has micro-air cells throughout. That's why Royalex floats. Then there is another thin ABS layer, and last a vinyl layer on the inside. The deeper the scratches, holes or perforations into these layers, the more serious the damage is.

The collective recommended steps seem to be:

1. Peel, sand or chisel off as much of the semi-loose vinyl you can, as well as the Kevlar skid plates if you want to.

2. If any of the circles or elongations or anything else are actual holes or gouges, especially if they go down to the foam layer, fill them with a mixture of West G/Flex epoxy mixed with a silica filler. Sand when hardened to fair with the curve of the hull.

3a. If there are no structurally damaged, weak, flexy or soft spots on the hull after this, no fiberglassing may be necessary. Just coat all the exposed ABS with G/Flex, overlapping slightly the remaining vinyl edges. Sand.

3b. If there are small structurally damaged soft spots, you could just patch those small spots with fiberglass. Then do step 3a above.

3c. If there are large areas of structural damage/softness, you could fiberglass the entire hull, but that could become very expensive, to say nothing about all the weight it would add to an already heavy canoe. It might not be worth it, but it's your time, money and decision.

4. Paint.

If I've misunderstood, I will be corrected.

 

[MidwestCanoer]

That clears up a lot. Thank you, Glenn. Simple question: for the G-flex on the hull, what do you recommend using to apply it since it does seem to harden so quickly? I was planning on placing the fiberglass over the exposed ABS then the G/Flex to seal and waterproof.

And do you think 32oz of the G/Flex will be enough for the entirety of the bare hull without and with the fiberglass?

 

[pblanc]

"Exposed foam core is easy to recognize. It looks a bit like Swiss cheese and it has a very rough surface unlike the smooth surface of the solid ABS layers of Royalex."

The perforations and the dryness of the outer ABS kind of resemble foam core with the way you described it but it is at the literal level or depth of the actual internal foam core. It's still superficial and only dips a little bit.

"Once the epoxy has cured "green" ..."

Do you mean the epoxy clears up and shows the green undercoat of the actual ABS?


Seeing the open naked area of the ABS do you think 32 fl oz will be enough to cover the entire (non PVC covered bottom) of the hull with fiberglass and be able to give a second coat to smooth it out?

I really don't understand your statement above "The perforations and the dryness of the outer ABS kind of resemble foam core with the way you described it but it is at the literal level or depth of the actual internal foam core. It's still superficial and only dips a little bit.".

Looking at the first and ninth photos in your post #14 there are what looks to be circular and oval perforations in the light green solid ABS layer showing brownish material with a rough texture in the centers. If that isn't foam core, what do you believe it to be?

As Mike said earlier in this thread, the thickness of the overall Royalex sheet as well as the individual ABS layers will vary in different places on the same canoe as well as from canoe to canoe. In some areas the outer solid layer of ABS may not be much more than a millimeter or so thick. A perforation of the outer solid ABS layer exposing the underlying core would therefore dip only a little bit.

When we talk about epoxy curing "green" it is sort of like talking about green firewood. It means the epoxy has cured to the extent that it does not sag or run but is far from completely cured. The cure of epoxy is the result of a chemical reaction between the resin and the hardener and the rate of cure is therefore very temperature-dependent as for any chemical reaction. But a complete chemical cure may take up to a couple of weeks in some instances.

I suspect that 32 ounces of G Flex would be enough to apply a blanket of fiberglass to the exposed ABS portion of the hull of the boat, so long as there is not a lot of wastage. A second application of epoxy to fill the weave of fabric typically requires only a fraction of the amount required to bond and wet out the cloth.

There are lots of potential application tools for applying epoxy and wetting out fabric. Most of the time I will use a combination of disposable foam brushes and plastic squeeges. Some people use the metal handled "acid brushes" that you can buy at the hardware store or cheap "chip brushes". I find that these frequently shed bristles. If you try to use a foam brush past the point the epoxy has begun to "kick" it will start to shed little pieces of foam. But I find foam brushes (usually 1" wide) to be convenient to apply an initial coat of epoxy to the hull before laying on cloth. Some people will simply pour the mixed epoxy onto the hull and spread it with a plastic squeege.

When wetting out fabric the important thing is to be patient and gentle. Obviously, you have to consider the pot life and working life of your epoxy which will depend on ambient temperature. So if you are wetting out a large piece of cloth you have to "make haste slowly". The mixed epoxy also generates heat (exothermic reaction) so I keep the batches as small as practical since larger batches generate more heat and kick more quickly. Another batch can be mixed up pretty quickly with G Flex epoxy. If you need to mix up additional batches of epoxy to wet out a piece of cloth fully try to maintain a "wet edge" on your fabric.

Start applying epoxy in the center of your patch or fabric either by pouring it on a little at a time, or dabbing it on with a brush and gently work it out toward the edge of the cloth. It takes time for the fibers to take up the epoxy so don't try to rush it too much. Be especially gentle at the edges of your cloth to minimize fraying. You may have to gently tug at the edges of your wetted cloth to eliminate pleats and wrinkles. Do so gently. Mask off with masking tape any portion of the hull you don't want to get epoxy on.

 

[MidwestCanoer]

I really don't understand your statement above "The perforations and the dryness of the outer ABS kind of resemble foam core with the way you described it but it is at the literal level or depth of the actual internal foam core. It's still superficial and only dips a little bit.".

Looking at the first and ninth photos in your post #14 there are what looks to be circular and oval perforations in the light green solid ABS layer showing brownish material with a rough texture in the centers. If that isn't foam core, what do you believe it to be?

As Mike said earlier in this thread, the thickness of the overall Royalex sheet as well as the individual ABS layers will vary in different places on the same canoe as well as from canoe to canoe. In some areas the outer solid layer of ABS may not be much more than a millimeter or so thick. A perforation of the outer solid ABS layer exposing the underlying core would therefore dip only a little bit.

When we talk about epoxy curing "green" it is sort of like talking about green firewood. It means the epoxy has cured to the extent that it does not sag or run but is far from completely cured. The cure of epoxy is the result of a chemical reaction between the resin and the hardener and the rate of cure is therefore very temperature-dependent. But a complete chemical cure may take up to a couple of weeks in some instances.

I suspect that 32 ounces of G Flex would be enough to apply a blanket of fiberglass to the exposed ABS portion of the hull of the boat, so long as there is not a lot of wastage. A second application of epoxy to fill the weave of fabric typically requires only a fraction of the amount required to bond and wet out the cloth.

My bad, what I meant was, the perforations are superficial and not at the depth of the foam core that makes the canoe actually float.

I believed it to be discoloration to the ABS from the UV from where the initial peeling and flaking took place from the vinyl prior to my purchase of it. You can't really tell in the photos but when you run your finger over it, it doesn't dive to the level of the foam core. It just dips a millimeter or so and is rough. Actually reading back, it definitely could be the foam core. Hope it isn't but y'all are more knowledgeable about this.

 

[pblanc]

My bad, what I meant was, the perforations are superficial and not at the depth of the foam core that makes the canoe actually float.

I believed it to be discoloration to the ABS from the UV from where the initial peeling and flaking took place from the vinyl prior to my purchase of it. You can't really tell in the photos but when you run your finger over it, it doesn't dive to the level of the foam core. It just dips a millimeter or so and is rough. Actually reading back, it definitely could be the foam core. Hope it isn't but y'all are more knowledgeable about this.

It would only need to dip a millimeter or so in some areas to reach the foam core since the outer solid layer isn't all that thick in many areas and the exposed solid layer of ABS may well have been thinned out as a result of photodegradation.

I don't know if it will help but the photo below shows the stem of a Royalex canoe where the red vinyl has abraded off a sizable area exposing the tan solid ABS layer underneath. In the center of that is an irregular defect in the outer solid layer of ABS where the darker brown foam core has become exposed. Perhaps you can get an idea from the photo how thin that outer layer of ABS is in this case.

 

[MidwestCanoer]

It would only need to dip a millimeter or so in some areas to reach the foam core since the outer solid layer isn't all that thick in many areas and the exposed solid layer of ABS may well have been thinned out as a result of photodegradation.

Well that's unfortunate. Looks like like I'll be G/Flexing those areas, fiberglass, more G/Flex and the big layer of Fiberglass over that.


So,

1. Peel, sand or chisel off as much of the semi-loose vinyl you can, as well as the Kevlar skid plates if you want to.

Sanded with 220 and need to re-sand with 120 grain and wash canoe again.


2. If any of the circles or elongations or anything else are actual holes or gouges, especially if they go down to the foam layer, fill them with a mixture of West G/Flex epoxy mixed with a silica filler. Sand when hardened to fair with the curve of the hull.



3a. If there are no structurally damaged, weak, flexy or soft spots on the hull after this, no fiberglassing may be necessary. Just coat all the exposed ABS with G/Flex, overlapping slightly the remaining vinyl edges. Sand.



3b. If there are small structurally damaged soft spots, you could just patch those small spots with fiberglass. Then do step 3a above.



3c. If there are large areas of structural damage/softness, you could fiberglass the entire hull, but that could become very expensive, to say nothing about all the weight it would add to an already heavy canoe. It might not be worth it, but it's your time, money and decision.

4. Paint.



How would you coat all of the ABS with G/Flex without the fiberglass to help keep it in place?

Coat, spread/smear/, harden, and sand?

 

[MidwestCanoer]

I sanded the hull down with 120 as recommended. Can confirm that those spots have reached the foam core. Will be filling those with G/Flex and covering them with S Glass Fiberglass once I get it all here.

Also washed and rinsed with Dawn and hot water.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I was planning on placing the fiberglass over the exposed ABS then the G/Flex to seal and waterproof.

Your canoe is still waterproof unless you have punctures through all five layers of the Royalex. There's no indication of that from what you've said. Hence, you don't need fiberglass to waterproof anything.

You also said:

I went back to the garage to test the integrity of the canoe. All is good with that. It gives just as a canoe normally would. Just recoils but it isn't soft anywhere and there are no major cracks.

If that's all so, I would just fill the holes and gouges with G/Flex, perhaps mixed with silica powder for deep gouges, and forget fiberglassing, because it's probably not needed for hull structural support. Then sand down the G/Flex deposits smooth with the hull.

After that, and sanding all the ABS lightly to rough it up a little for epoxy adherence, I'd just "paint on" G/Flex all over the exposed ABS areas as discussed above. This would just be an abrasion protection coating to mimic the protection of the removed vinyl. I've never spread epoxy over so much surface area before, so I defer to Pete and Mike or anyone else as to how many coats and what kind of brush to use.

Finally, sand lightly again for paint adherence and then paint.

My motivation would to be to avoid the cost, weight and potential novice mess of fiberglassing such an old and beat up canoe, unless it was absolutely structurally necessary. YMMV.

 

[MidwestCanoer]

https://www.nrs.com/assets/downloads/legacy/repair/2270_gflex_epoxy.pdf

 

[Mike McCrea]

Tristan, I think I noticed something unusual about the canoe; whoever installed the kevlar felt skid plates kit appears to have put them on backwards, with the wider, more bulbous end high on the stems and the narrow tapered ends towards midships. Never seen that before either.

I’m not sure I would try chiseling or grinding off the old skid plates. If they were put on with something like urethane resin they may be a bear to get off, and then you’ll want to install new skid plates, maybe using Dynel fabric instead.

 

[pblanc]

If your impression is that the hull is basically sound I would fill surface imperfections and paint the hull. I probably would not apply a coat of epoxy to the entire exposed ABS area. Cured epoxy without some type of fiber reinforcement really does not have a lot of strength. I would save the epoxy in case you find that your initial assessment regarding the hull is incorrect. It would be possible to sand off the paint and fiberglass the hull at a later date.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

If your impression is that the hull is basically sound I would fill surface imperfections and paint the hull. I probably would not apply a coat of epoxy to the entire exposed ABS area. Cured epoxy without some type of fiber reinforcement really does not have a lot of strength.

I was thinking that, also, to save even more time, money and weight, but the condition of this canoe is so alien. I think Mike was suggesting earlier that it might be worth applying some epoxy over the edge of the remaining vinyl to help keep that edge from beginning to peel away from the ABS. Not sure, though, how much "anti-peeling" strength epoxy would have by itself.

 

[MidwestCanoer]

I was thinking that, also, to save even more time, money and weight, but the condition of this canoe is so alien. I think Mike was suggesting earlier that it might be worth applying some epoxy over the edge of the remaining vinyl to help keep that edge from beginning to peel away from the ABS. Not sure, though, how much "anti-peeling" strength epoxy would have by itself.

I was thinking the same thing. My plan was initially to fiberglass the entire naked ABS and obviously coat it. Now I'm thinking more so, g/flex and fiberglass the spots where the foam core is showing, and fiberglass where the lines are showing across the low sides of the canoe. I might also fiberglass the bottom center of the canoe to give it a little extra strength just incase it hits some rocks direct bottom. I'll paint g/flex across the entire bottom that is naked as well an inch or two over the edges of the vinyl, sand with 120 or 220 (whichever is recommended), and paint with a good marine/enamel paint to protect from UV.

 

[MidwestCanoer]

Spots to be have g/flex and fiberglass placed.

Would you recommending the spots where the foam core is visible to get more exposure and area for the g/flex to adhere to?