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Wind + Distance = Reality Check?

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Oct 20, 2016
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Hi Everyone,

I finally had the opportunity to spend a day in the little Prospector and had an absolute blast. Played in a little bit of current with ferry angles, s-turns, etc. Luv'n the boat. I had a great time but sort of wanted to die by the end of the day.

The situation was:
Current - headed the appropriate direction @ approximately 1/2 knot.

Headwind: morning 5-8 mph (4-7 knots), afternoon 8-10 mph (7-8.7 knots) gusting to 15 mph (13 knots).

My friends were tandem in an We-no-nah Adirondack, I was solo in the Prospector.

We ended up traveling 11.5 miles downriver in total.

I'm really looking for some feedback on what a reasonable distance is in those conditions.

Also, at what wind speed is it no longer prudent to head out on the water? I can tell you it wasn't fun at 10-15 mph, especially solo. It didn't seem to be to big of an issue for the tandem pair.

My experience in sea kayaks doesn't really seem to apply as I've paddled in headwinds like that before and it seemed a great deal more manageable. So, was I too ambitious (it rather felt that way), do I need to work more on technique in wind or??

Thoughts and feedback are truly welcome!

Kathy
 
I know I wouldn't like paddling an empty tandem canoe solo in those conditions but in most dedicated solos it wouldn't be that big of a deal.

Alan
 
Yep. There's a huge difference between paddling a tandem solo and a dedicated solo in the wind. It's usually windy where I live and high sided river boats especially unloaded always put up a fight. I understand your frustration. I don't know what your terrain surrounding the river is like, but I will hug as close to the bank as possible in the wind. There's usually a windbreak caused by the trees even in a straight headwind. As far as prudency, just stop if you feel uncomfortable. I've been out in 30 to 40 mph on the river, didn't really have a choice as it was in the middle of a trip. The white caps were very frustrating, and we ended up wading with the canoe in tow. The river I was on is rarely more than chest deep and easy going, so there really was no danger if we capsized. You might consider decking the canoe with tarps or whatever works. That will help cut the wind a lot.
 
That makes sense, the prospector is a tandem and while I had 'stuff' in it, it wasn't enough to equate to the weight of another person.

The dedicated solo canoes would also be narrower and have less freeboard as well?
 
I don't know your experience level Kathy but paddling a canoe in the wind is not as intuitive as paddling a kayak. There are certain things you would need to know about boat trim, and paddling technique that could make the difference between that trip being realatively easy to it being brutal.

As far as how windy is too windy I would say that when you can't make forward progress it is too windy. I can enjoy paddling into the wind if I have no place to go. When the wind is up I enjoy paddling in one place like I was on a threadmill doing the equivalent of upstream ferries into the wind like it was a current. After enough practice you can feel how best to angle your hull for the least wind resistance and what type of strokes you need to be doing.
 
....I finally had the opportunity to spend a day in the little Prospector....

How little is "little"? You say it's a tandem, so I'm assuming 15' or more. Anyway - I like my Prospector a lot, but of all the tandems that one might choose to paddle solo in the wind, the Prospector type is high on my list of least favorite. Having such a light current doesn't help - although a strong current with a strong headwind presents it's own problems. You can mitigate things by adding ballast to the boat, which will aid in control but make the canoe less responsive. Adding a spray skirt can help, but really, with all that freeboard and high stems, it isn't going to help that much on a Prospector. A dedicated solo that is suitable to the water conditions is almost always going to be easier to handle in the wind, but then so is a tandem with less freeboard and lower stems (such as a MR Malecite, OT Penobscot, or Wenonah Adirondack). Were I in your place on that trip, I would have tried to convince one of the Adirondack paddlers to either join me in my boat or switch boats with me.
 
A Prospector is an excellent sail with high winds. I know I would be tired. More in that than a dedicated solo. Not all tandems are as unwieldy as the Prospector as there are other more wind friendly designs with lower sheer
It's difficult to comment on freeboard. If you are an average size gal you had to paddle it heeled over which reduced freeboard
Most solos have 12-15 inch freeboard. My Dragonfly is only 27 inches wide max and has 15 inches of depth
 
It is a 15' tandem, and I think it's 36 inches max width. The stems are high (24"), 2 1/2" of rocker, and the center depth (14"). (yes, it is a sail)

As far as my experience in a canoe - very little. This is the first time I have spent any meaningful time in a canoe in years. My past experience was down the Rogue River (tame section) in college. So, I am learning - albeit sometimes the hard way.
I picked up the Prospector hoping for a boat that was versatile and forgiving enough to learn in and eventually so that I could run some class II and class ii+ in it down the road. I had heard it might be a bit of a beast to manage in the wind and from the sounds of it - there might be a technique to learn that will help? Lowangle al - if there is anything you can point me towards - YouTube videos or books as a starting point I would be forever grateful. If I have some ideas of things to try, that would be great.

There was about 12 liters of water in the bow, courtesy of one very beefy dry bag (keeps water out and in). While that made a world of difference but it wasn't really enough when faced with the headwind later in the day. The section of river we were on was rather wide and twisty. I'm not sure running back and forth across it would have been worth it? Might try that when I have more time. Interesting idea about using the wind to do ferrying - I'll have to try that when I have no particular place to go. That might also be the best way to work out where (kneeling thwart or seat) works best as well.

Comfort level as far as the wind wasn't really an issue (30-40 mph would have been an issue), it was just the proverbial treadmill and energy level became the issue after about 4-5 hours.

Thank you all for the ideas - please keep them coming if you think of anything else.
 
Well Kathy since you own a Prospector I would have to direct you to Bill Masons "Path of the Paddle" and you may as well pick up a copy of his "Song of the Paddle" and you will never be the same again.
 
where were you sitting? One trick in wind is to let the canoe "weathervane". If you are running up wind, you can shift forward, letting the stern rise to catch the wind- the wind will force the stern to face away from it and keep the bow pointing upwind. It also lowers the bow so there is less force on it, but it may be wetter with the low bow. Running down wind is the opposite- move back slightly and allow the bow to rise to catch the wind. even going across the wind is possible- shift slightly to the side to let the upwind gunwale catch the wind, rudder the canoe, and you can actually run at about 80degrees to it. It's very counter-intuitive, and a little scary to start (we're all taught to trim level) but, with practice, it can be fun and effective! just start with small increments (a couple of inches) until you find the point that it weathervanes.
I do it all the time with my 16'9" swift Kippawa and 16'Scott echo.
 
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On day three of our Outers trip this June, one of our participants became ill and had to leave. I was left to solo a Nova Craft 16' prospector for the remaining five days. For the first two days, with the canoe heeled over, I was able to stay with the pack, we were cruising between 6 and 7 k an hour. However, each day the kids got stronger, and I got weaker, so by the third day I was a distant dot. As you say, wind was a major culprit too. As soon as it came up, any hope of staying with the pack was dashed.

It would have been a different story if I had my solo canoe.
 
It is a 15' tandem, and I think it's 36 inches max width. The stems are high (24"), 2 1/2" of rocker, and the center depth (14"). (yes, it is a sail)

Comfort level as far as the wind wasn't really an issue
it was just the proverbial treadmill and energy level became the issue after about 4-5 hours.

Thank you all for the ideas - please keep them coming if you think of anything else.

That is a wide, deep hull to catch in wind when solo, and anything you can do the lessen the breeze effect will help; heeling, trim, technique. I paddle 16+ foot soloized tandems as often or more than our solos, and a lot of that is on open water and wind. Two ideas.

First, I firmly believe a spray cover, even open-center partials bow and stern, helps noticeably in the wind. In any direction.

Spray covers keep some wind out of the open hull catch, and prevent me from poor loading jobs with gear protruding even more sail-like above the gunwale line. See also rain, spray, splash and sun. Spray covers are pricey (unless DIY’ed), but no more so than a high end paddle. For comfort and efficiency amortized over the life of a boat they are well worth the cost.

Second
Headwind: morning 5-8 mph (4-7 knots), afternoon 8-10 mph (7-8.7 knots) gusting to 15 mph (13 knots).
We ended up traveling 11.5 miles downriver in total.

I know this is anathema to some, but against a gusty 10 mph breeze on open water I would be using a (lightweight, composite) double blade. And a long double blade at that, at least 260cm.

I can feel folks cringing at that, both the double blade, and the suggested length. To each their own; a low angle 270cm works best for me in the (wide center seat) soloized Penobscot, Explorer or Cronje. Bow backwards in a tandem I can squeak by with a 250.

I'm really looking for some feedback on what a reasonable distance is in those conditions.

Also, at what wind speed is it no longer prudent to head out on the water? I can tell you it wasn't fun at 10-15 mph, especially solo. It didn't seem to be to big of an issue for the tandem pair.

My experience in sea kayaks doesn't really seem to apply as I've paddled in headwinds like that before and it seemed a great deal more manageable. So, was I too ambitious (it rather felt that way), do I need to work more on technique in wind or??

All unanswerable questions, except that low slung sea kayaks don’t apply.

A reasonable distance is some unknown X times Y times Z. Hull efficiency, length-to-waterline ratio, wetted hull surface. Strength, stamina, desire, necessity, conditions, etc.

11.5 miles is a decent distance for me most tripping days, even without a headwind. The longest I have done are a couple 30+ mile days, but that was current assisted (though into a stiff wind). The fastest, unaided by wind or current, was 12.5 miles at a sub-three hour race cadence (I had nothing left each time at the finish line, and the last mile or so was sheer willpower).

Prudence is likewise X times Y times Z. Away from the comfort of shore in an open canoe, especially in fast, deep or cold waters, I am pretty dang cautious about conditions; I’ll pay the mileage price to hug the banks and look for wind and wave protection before I approach my limits. Those limits are significantly higher in a decked hull, and higher still with a rudder.

My wind and wave limits are obvious by vocalization; when I start muttering “crap. . . . oh, crap. . . .” I know I have surpassed them.

Lastly, about “energy levels” – hydration plays a part, and it’s hard to keep watered battling into a headwind. So does caloric intake for fuel source, which is even harder than hydration while out in the wind. A 15 minute shore break to stand up and stretch, have a sip and nosh is often faster than keeping on keeping on.
 
Well Kathy since you own a Prospector I would have to direct you to Bill Masons "Path of the Paddle" and you may as well pick up a copy of his "Song of the Paddle" and you will never be the same again.

Bill Mason's books are on order! :)

Will look into a proper tilley hat, since that will make all of this better. :-D

As far as the location where I was sitting, generally on the kneeling thwart (see below); when the wind was down, the back seat (not often). This picture was taken when I still had the bag of water in the front. It looks pretty well trim, but with a headwind I can see why you'd want to be even farther forward... now, achieving that is another story (sit backwards on the kneeling thwart?).

0

(This picture was taken on the Pudding River, a small tributary of the Willamette River which was the main body of water we were on.)

So a long double blade, and possibly sitting backwards on the kneeling thwart. Spend time learning how to ferry the thing around with the wind and look into spray covers. And explore how much I can avoid the wind by hugging the banks, mileage penalty and all. That is an awesome start - thank you! (And read a few Bill Mason books when they come in).

My limits are more likely to be reached with respect to energy when I am out solo with a tandem pair. I've seen quite a bit in the sea kayak and know the canoe is a very seaworthy little boat. Impending collisions with rocks, class iii whitewater and the aforementioned 30-40 mph winds would have me repeating your phrase at various volume levels. They would also see me tucked into a cove somewhere under a shelter with a cup of tea. As a group we are generally pretty good about stopping for a variety of breaks and I snack / drink every time we stop.

Thanks again, Robin, I so appreciate this site and all of the people you have on it. Truly appreciate the help!
Kathy
 
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I have a bear Mountain designed stripper that is a modified prospector, 15.5 feet. I feel your pain for sure. It is a beast to paddle in the wind solo. I can only say that the answer to your problem is having both a tandem and a solo to use as the situation arises. It makes a huge difference.

It's not the length per se but rather the hull shape that gets you into trouble here. Our solos are 15 footers as well but the Chum and Huron are much easier to handle by myself, especially the Chum. If you are at all handy, consider building a Jacks Special for your solo boat. It is a winner.

On the other hand, if you and a friend are planning an extended trip then the prospector rules the waves. I am sure most paddlers here will agree that it is far easier to have the right boat for the trip than it is to try to make do with what is available, although we all end up doing that at some point.

Case in point....we tandem a Swift Mattawa, which is not exactly what you might call a tripping canoe. That boat has been more places than I can name and it has served us well but we always are tempted to try others. After a 10 year love affair with the Mattawa, we have added two solos and a Y stern to the fleet.

Just my thoughts. I could be wrong but, that would be a first eh.

Christine
 
I agree with Christine about having the right canoe for the right place and conditions. I am not a huge fan of Prospectors outside of moving water rivers with a gear load, where the design shines.

and look into spray covers.

A caveat on spray covers: Some folks love them, some detest them. Spray covers do add another installation element to loading and unloading, but I’ll happily pay that price with a big boat in the wind solo, with or without a gear load.

For manufactured spray covers your choices are pretty much limited to Cooke Custom Sewing or Northwater. Depending on the make/model of your Prospector either vendor may already have a template.

CCS
http://www.cookecustomsewing.com/canoecovers.htm

Northwater
https://northwater.com/products/canoe-spray-deck

CCS uses snaps, Northwater uses a hook and lashing system. There are pluses and minuses and preferences for either system.

I have CCS covers on a couple canoes. Custom covers (Cooke Custom Sewing); long bow and stern partial covers leaving an open cockpit area. I am not an entry or egress fan of wearing a tunnel skirt in a canoe wide hull.

If you can sew, a DIY cover, either snaps or hooks, becomes materials-cost inexpensive.
 
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