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Composite Materials & Skin Sensitivity

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Hey guys I was curious if anyone that has experience with various composites can chime in on the potential for skin irritation either in raw material form or during maintenance (sanding) and just all around.

What I am experienced with would be fiberglass and related splinters / irritation there so I’m familiar with that as a “baseline”. However curious regarding Innegra basalt (assume the Innegra is pretty tame, but unsure of the basalt) and carbon and Kevlar materials. How would these materials compare to fiberglass in this regard?

Thank you for any insight!
 
You might want to read this thread to see if it informs any of your questions:

 
Thanks Glenn! That one is more about resins, more curious here about the effects if any that these composites might physically have on skin. Example splinters, itchiness etc. like you can get with fiberglass sometimes.
 
Hey guys I was curious if anyone that has experience with various composites can chime in on the potential for skin irritation either in raw material form or during maintenance (sanding) and just all around.

What I am experienced with would be fiberglass and related splinters / irritation there so I’m familiar with that as a “baseline”. However curious regarding Innegra basalt (assume the Innegra is pretty tame, but unsure of the basalt) and carbon and Kevlar materials. How would these materials compare to fiberglass in this regard?

Thank you for any insight!
Both polyester/vinylester and epoxy are irritants to the skin in the liquid form, though epoxy is the worst. Many people who work with it a lot become sensitized to it and have to stop. Always wear gloves when working with epoxy and don't get any on your skin. After the resins cure, they are for all practical purposes inert and shouldn't be a problem sanding other than causing dust which can clog things up like lungs, so respirator recommended, or do it all wet sanding(?). There will be reinforcing fabric particles generated if you sand a cured laminate.

Glass is a mineral and breaks. You don't "cut" it, you break it, and micropieces fly off to increase irritation. It is just like working with fiberglass insulation. Itchy stuff, both E-glass and S-glass. Carbon is the same way, and conducts electricity to boot, so can theoretically increase irrtation because it transfers nerve impulses, though I seriously doubt it's a big factor. Basalt is just silica again. It's supposed to be a lower cost alternative to S-glass. Glass is silica. Essentially the same stuff. Basalt breaks like glass, makes microparticles like glass, etc. I don't think there's enough iron in it to conduct electricity though.

The plastic synthetics like nylon, Kevlar/Twaron ("aramid" there are other manufacturers of this, but I don't know if they have any real market share?), Innegra, Dyneema, Spectra, dynel and diolen, and a few others are all "softer" plastics and pretty non irritating. To my knowledge they are also nontoxic. Breathing the dust would just clog you up, not toxify you chemically (or shouldn't?)

Fillers for resins like microballoons, slippery graphite might be a mixed bag. They're all powders, which could irritate if inhaled. Glass microballoons could irritate with the "breakage" of individual bubbles when sanded after cure, but if they're used with fiberglass. Thixotropes, Cab-O-Sil is one brand name, are thickeners for resins that need it. It depends low-level hydrogen bonding for its properties. It can be easily stirred at lower concentrations, when the resin is in motion because those hydrogen bonds break and allow movement, but when motion ceases, they tend to grip again, sort of freeze up (temperature not involved), and the resin sort of stiffens up and will more easily stick to vertical surfaces without running down the sides. Most home builders just use it to make a putty for filling, and this property is lost in that situation. As a powder it's not a skin irritant at all because the silica in it isn't exposed, is coated with something that prevents that, but don't breathe it as it can really clog up the lungs. Pigments would depend on several things. The powdered graphite for slippery-making is a form that shouldn't irritate unless inhaled. "Carbon fiber," the reinforcement coverd above, is another form of graphite that is irritating though. Lots of forms of carbon, though we only use a couple of them. I'm pretty sure that most pigments today are relatively nontoxic (little or no lead in them for instance? "Red lead", which is lead tetraoxide, is likely not used commercially to make red pigment -- e.g. for paint -- any more? At least not legally?) but many pigments come as liquids or pastes and such are "dispersed" (suspended) in a resin, notably polyester or epoxy resin. That epoxy can be sensitizing as mentioned above. Polyester, too, though it's far less likely to be a sensitizer. Can happen. Users of pigments would want to match the pigment's dispersant with the resin system they're using for best result, though a pigment in polyester wouldn't degrage properties that much as so little pigment is usually used in a project.

What am I forgetting? It's been a few years since I've dealt with much of this stuff. Wood is relatively nontoxic, but I know a guy who built a cedar stripper and turned out to be allergic to cedar dust when sawing and sanding strips. He completed the boat but sneezed his way all the way through it. It happens! He hasn't built another one.

Good luck with the projects.
 
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Thanks Nick! I had been starting to lean towards some Innegra basalt or carbon options but a bit bummed to hear carbon and basalt are similar to fiberglass there. I think I’m only seeing Innegra combined with carbon or basalt. Perhaps Kevlar is better for this concern although not sure I like reports of Kevlar being fond of soaking up water. I do have some carbon fiber gear (not canoe) that hasn’t caused me any trouble but it hasn’t needed maintenance or suffered any abrasion.
 
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Thanks Nick! I had been starting to lean towards some Innegra basalt or carbon options but a bit bummed to hear carbon and basalt are similar to fiberglass there. I think I’m only seeing Innegra combined with carbon or basalt. Perhaps Kevlar is better for this concern although not sure I like reports of Kevlar being fond of soaking up water. I do have some carbon fiber gear (not canoe) that hasn’t caused me any trouble but it hasn’t needed maintenance or suffered any abrasion.
Wear protective clothing and few if any of these materials should be an issue unless you are one of the very few truly sensitive types (mostly liquid epoxy sensitifvity). I worked in the industry for years with no problems, wearing minimal gear at times, though not doing dumb things, either (or so I liked to think not).

The Kevlar soaking up water is not an issue in my opinion. I've been using Kevlar in boats since the '70s with no real problem. I'm primarily paddling a Kevlar Wenonah now that was purchased in the mid 1990s and it's going strong. That issue primarily comes from the fact that resins don't stick well to aramids. That is true in the respect that what the resin does instead is just encapsulate the fibers rather than really bonding to them. That allows water to wick up the fiber-resin interface some, but it's not a real problem. Performance degradation is minimal, or at least in my experience. If it was potentially a life or death issue as would happen in the aerospace industry, yeah, it matters. In a canoe? Pull over to shore before your canoe totally falls apart. I'm joking. I see Kevlar canoes older than mine all the time and no one is worried about them. I'm hoping to be able to paddle mine for another ten years. My body is giving out quicker than my canoe is (though I am older). Don't sweat the urban legend that Kevlar and water don't mix well. Innegra won't substitute for it.

I would definitely use carbon in strategic spots in canoes. I don't consider working with it any problem at all. The cutting of the fabric to size is minimal exposure for a home builder. Wear long sleeves and gloves. The guys who have to worry are the pro builders who use it day after day, and they learn how to do things with minimal contact from irritants generated with all these materials (as well as use proper protective gear). Put carbon where it doesn't need to be sanded, or not require much sanding, and it simply won't matter. The carbon fiber gear you have isn't gonna cause you any issues unless it fails catastrophically.

I'm not sure I'd bother with basalt at all. To me it sounds like an S-glass wannabe that doesn't quite make the grade. Not the structural properties of S-glass (though better than E-glass), and it seems to cost almost as much as S-glass. I've not used basalt so this is just from reading about it. Hey, if you need any raw material, I live in Oregon, volcano country, and on the slopes of an old extinct one. I've got 20 acres of it. How much basalt rock would you like? < GRIN >

I haven't used Innegra at all either. Looking at the specs, it's going to be floppy stuff in a layup, not offering much in stiffness. That's why they weave it with basalt or carbon. They complement each other. I would think that Kevlar would work with it, also.

If you're doing a cedar strip boat, you're going to be doing some sanding. Wood at minimum. Glass exterior (and some on the interior). Wear long sleeves and don a particle mask with a good seal. Change clothing and shower afterwards. If you really worry, a Tyvek jumpsuit for full coverage, though they're hot to work in. The only time I'd wear a Tyvek suit is if I was using a power sander that spewed dust all over the place like a disk sander or a belt sander. Your mileage (and sense) may vary. If you're building a composite without the wood, like using a female mold, you'll likely be doing minimal sanding. I wouldn't worry about it in that case. That's me. I'm not you. I do think you're worrying overly much about all the dangers of this. To me the only real potential problem is epoxy sensitivity. Don't do dumb things. Wear gloves and keep that stuff off your body.
 
Nick,

I appreciate your insight. Thank you for quelling some of my concerns on Kevlar. It made sense to me to look for materials that were hydrophobic for a canoe, but if it’s not an issue it’s not an issue.

As far as “itchy” stuff goes I had some experiences with a fiberglass canoe many years ago. It seemed you couldn’t get within a couple feet of that thing without getting glass on your skin. I don’t want to repeat that experience! Additionally, I will be canoeing with a partner that does have a diagnosed skin condition / sensitivity issue and is very sensitive to anything on the skin (like allergic reaction sensitive). I would hate to be out on a backcountry trip and have something like that happen. I’m wondering at this point if I should avoid carbon and basalt entirely on the boat (memories of old fiberglass canoe experience) or if these materials are better during normal use (sanding aside etc.) on the water.

On epoxy, do you have any concerns with the fully cured product?
 
Nick,

I appreciate your insight. Thank you for quelling some of my concerns on Kevlar. It made sense to me to look for materials that were hydrophobic for a canoe, but if it’s not an issue it’s not an issue.

As far as “itchy” stuff goes I had some experiences with a fiberglass canoe many years ago. It seemed you couldn’t get within a couple feet of that thing without getting glass on your skin. I don’t want to repeat that experience! Additionally, I will be canoeing with a partner that does have a diagnosed skin condition / sensitivity issue and is very sensitive to anything on the skin (like allergic reaction sensitive). I would hate to be out on a backcountry trip and have something like that happen. I’m wondering at this point if I should avoid carbon and basalt entirely on the boat (memories of old fiberglass canoe experience) or if these materials are better during normal use (sanding aside etc.) on the water.

On epoxy, do you have any concerns with the fully cured product?
On epoxy, fully cured stuff should be nontoxic, not sensitizing at all. Make sure to stir thoroughly so that it's mixed fully, and use proper proportions when mixing up new batches. Not mixed well, some could not set fully and cause problems, though I'd consider it not much of a problem. It would be difficult to sand if it did.

Old fiberglass canoes were often chopper-gun formed using el-cheapo materials, and they shed glass fibers easily, especially after age had set in, as well as sunlight exposure made other inroads. It's a matter of learning not to touch the surfaces, and if you have gear touching it, espcially fabric packs, bags, etc, not to rub against that, either, as they could pick up fibers and then you get them on you when carrying the gearbags. I don't begrudge you shying away, but it limits your building options as I consider glass too useful to ignore. A totally Kevlar layup would be an option, and light, but not the greatest if you plan on a lot of rock bashing with the boat.

What sort of paddling do you propose to do with this creation? I'll tell you what sort of layup I'd use for that use for me, but that doesn't mean it would be the best for you. And of course, interests change. I started out pure flatwater, switched a few years later to pure whitewater, and am now slowly going back to almost pure flatwater.
 
Thanks. Just FYI I am leaning towards buying but I have definitely thought of giving a build a go as well. Not sure which way I’ll go quite yet!

I have considered the all Kevlar route. I see your point in avoiding the fibers, etc., however I can imagine that being a futile exercise on a multi-day trip (doesn’t sound like fun to me).

Yes, you are correct I remember that old fiberglass canoe had some use / age / sun exposure etc….but in the end it was not fun to use.

Use would be day trips to local lakes fishing etc. and then multi-day backcountry lake chain to lake chain style of paddling. So maybe class 1-2 max and rarely. Not too much rock bashing I’d imagine.
 
Thanks. Just FYI I am leaning towards buying but I have definitely thought of giving a build a go as well. Not sure which way I’ll go quite yet!

I have considered the all Kevlar route. I see your point in avoiding the fibers, etc., however I can imagine that being a futile exercise on a multi-day trip (doesn’t sound like fun to me).

Yes, you are correct I remember that old fiberglass canoe had some use / age / sun exposure etc….but in the end it was not fun to use.

Use would be day trips to local lakes fishing etc. and then multi-day backcountry lake chain to lake chain style of paddling. So maybe class 1-2 max and rarely. Not too much rock bashing I’d imagine.
If you're buying a commercially made boat, that makes it easier. Yeah, right. It's just a matter of picking the manufacturer, model, and construction out of the hundreds on offer. As long as you stick with one of the better brands, I don't think itchies will be a problem.

Again, I wouldn't worry about it, but it sounds like you want to avoid fiberglass (or carbon) as either an outer layer or an inside layer where gear (and you) can contact it. Gelcoat outside would prevent contact with the outermost fabric layer if the rest of the hull is glass, and that's fine until you have to patch it. Just patch it using the outermost layer of the patch larger and covering any irritants, and use a plastic fabric. I don't think you'll be able to get anything other than Kevlar as an inside layer to cover glass if there is any in the boat at all. Do any other readers here know of manufacturers using nonirritating plastic fabrics other than Kevlar as an inside layer? It's possible. I haven't kept up much with what's being produced lately as I'm not in the market for another boat myself.

With your expected use (expect it to change, though maybe it won't) a light-duty (meaning ultralight) boat of all Kevlar would suffice. It's what I use for almost everything. Almost. A "bony" (low water) class 2 can cause problems, of course, where a wavy class 2 with few rocks to hit would be no problem as long as you stayed in control. If you did take a swim, that boatload of gear and water could wreak havoc still.

Now it's a matter of picking a manufacturer and model to suit. Good luck.

If you decide to build instead (or also), there's time to plan. Let us know here in the forums, and we can offer advice, though there is plenty here already.
 
Thanks, just learning what chopper gun fiberglass is all about and I remember that old canoe having that type of finish (although it also looked all rotted out, which still has me a bit on edge about going with a material that could soak up water). I can imagine that method of application contributing to the problem although I still notice it with modern tool handles, ladders etc. - not sure how those are made.

Inside the canoe I am seeing Kevlar out there for sure as an option, and I see some manufacturers using Innegra but mixed with carbon or basalt.
 
Thanks, just learning what chopper gun fiberglass is all about and I remember that old canoe having that type of finish (although it also looked all rotted out, which still has me a bit on edge about going with a material that could soak up water). I can imagine that method of application contributing to the problem although I still notice it with modern tool handles, ladders etc. - not sure how those are made.

Inside the canoe I am seeing Kevlar out there for sure as an option, and I see some manufacturers using Innegra but mixed with carbon or basalt.
Not sure how tool handles are made but they're probably usually extruded like the fiberglass ladder typically seen at Home Depot. They mix up a huge batch of the short fiber glass like comes out of a chopper gun with resin and then pressure it through a die in the shape they want. Cut pieces to length and assemble. That's what's done for ladders. Tool handles might take some finish work, sanding and polishing, and then maybe a special coating (clear or pigmented) so the fiberglass isn't contacting the hands. There are many different ways it (both handles and ladders) can be made.

It would surprise me if any canoe manufacturer has Innegra that isn't woven with either carbon or basalt or glass of one sort or another, which you want to avoid because of that possible irritation factor. I think you're stuck with a Kevlar (or some brand of aramid) as an inside layer. If you get that, chances are the rest of the boat fabric will also be Kevlar, though there are manufacturers who purportedly use other material layers with the Kevlar. For your use, all Kevlar is just fine. Don't sweat the water absorption, totally a non-issue. I beat the crap out of my boat and it's held up well. A Wenonah Odyssey, 18-1/2 feet long, 15 inches deep, and weighs only 41 pounds. It's a foam core boat. See what you can get. Heck, see what you can find used to save some money. A new one won't be cheap, in any case. Good luck again.
 
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