Tips on float bag installation

[FartherWest]

So I guess this is my response to Alan's question about what is going on in my shop (garage) this winter. Outfitting the new boat.

The Prospector is made of Tuffweave and although I asked Wenonah where I should install the rivet/lashing kit, a friend who has a Kevlar Wenonah also did so in a separate email and we received two different responses.

We plan on riveting the padded loops (pic below) to the inside of the canoe so the lashings and bags can be easily removed.

Typical options are to rivet the lashing kit through the gunwales, just under it or about an inch under it. I was told, with either Kevlar or Tuffweave, to mount the kit just under the gunwale. My friend was told to mount it through the gunwale on either boat.

Gunwales are there to stabilize the structure of the boat and my concern is that riveting through aluminum gunwales will in some way weaken them. Apparently there isn't much maintenance that needs to happen with them so that shouldn't be the issue (So I was told).

Riveting just under the gunwale makes sense to me, but the idea of a rivet getting pulled through the hull (someone grabs the lashings to carry the boat or in a rescue situation) is enough to wake me up at 3AM. I thought about adding a strip of flashing of some kind on the inside the hull (single strip that all rivets pass through, might possibly 'share the load' more evenly) but haven't been able to come up with a suitable material (aluminum might be to sharp, etc) that might make that feasible.

So, please weigh in - all suggestions and ideas are welcome!

Thanks - Kathy

 

[Guest]

First, skip the flashing idea. Maybe a strip of fiberglass tape epoxied under the inwale for reinforcement, but even that is unnecessary.

I have never used pad eyes for canoe float bag lashings. Seems like a lot of 2-per-pad-eye extra holes. Two pad eye holes and pop rivets through the hull every 6 inches, eeesh, that seems a little Swiss Cheesy.

Pad eyes attached to the aluminum gunwale would be better, but to drill those pad eye holes on the underside of the gunwale you will need a 90 degree drill adaptor:

http://www.sears.com/craftsman-dril...gclid=CPadxMvE-dECFYpWDQodc1ADXw&gclsrc=aw.ds

I usually just drill the hull under the gunwale every 6 inches or so and either A, laced a continuous length of cord back and forth across the hull (for boats that usually have float bags cage secured), or B, linear laced along the inside of the hull in and out those hole (for canoes that more often see gear loads, when I need to put in the bags run I can run additional line to cage them under that side lacing).

If you plan to install D-rings for straps or hull side-anchor points it pays to think ahead about where in the boat those D-rings might be best placed to serve double duty for securing dry bags, packs or barrels.

If you have machine screws attaching yoke, thwarts or seat drops a simple loop of webbing, attached to the shank end of that bolt with the washer/nut back in place is as sturdy a tie point as exists.

http://www.canoetripping.net/forums...ons/diy/43895-time-to-make-some-webbing-loops

If you really want anchors under the inwales a webbing loop every six inches would be half as many holes as a pad eye. It takes a lot of force to rip even a single 3/16 pop rivet out of an aluminum gunwale, and 8 or 10 of them spaced along the inwale would share that load.

Mike Yee is the master of float bag outfitting for serious whitewater runner, and his system(s) have been years in perfection. You might want to have a look at his installation instructions and gallery for ideas.

http://www.mikeyeeoutfitting.com/

 

[pblanc]

If you don't want to make so many holes, you can use P-clips of the type used to secure coaxial cable, instead of the pad eyes. These require only one hole each. If you use P-clips it is best to get the ones with a strip of aluminum reinforcement. Some of the cheaper ones can break under tension.

To reduce the number of holes, you can also drill out the existing rivets securing the gunwales and use that same hole to secure an anchor with a longer rivet. The extruded aluminum gunwales used by Wenonah are shaped such that securing anchors to the under surface of the inwale portion is awkward, although it can be done. But I would be more concerned about weakening the gunwale itself and creating a potential kink point than I would be weakening the aluminum skirt that secures the gunwale to the hull, or the hull itself.

When I have secured anchors to a boat of that type, I have always drilled the holes through the aluminum skirt at the bottom of the gunwale itself. I have never seen a rivet pull out of the hull, unless the boat was completely folded, and even then rarely. I don't suppose there is any reason you couldn't position them below the skirt, but I think it would be somewhat ugly.

 

[Canotrouge]

Since I got my first Millbrook boat, I use the same method John uses on is boats, simple efficient, cheep and fast!! https://www.facebook.com/3630167403...63016740342/10156616305465343/?type=3&theater
That's the way I do it now!!

 

[Nodrama43]

No Title

When I bagged my Swift I used the method described by Mike McCrea. I was able to turn the canoe up on it's side and drill using a regular battery powered DE Walt. I used most of the parts from the NorthWater kit and it worked perfectly in the royalex boat. I had never done it before but it worked out just fine.

 

[Guest]

If you don't want to make so many holes, you can use P-clips of the type used to secure coaxial cable, instead of the pad eyes. These require only one hole each. If you use P-clips it is best to get the ones with a strip of aluminum reinforcement. Some of the cheaper ones can break under tension.

Beware the cheap P-clips sold in the electrical isle of hardware stores; not only are they flimsy, but the hole on many (most) of them is too small to accommodate a 3/16 inch pop rivet.

If you go with P-clips bring a pop rivet to check the hole size.

 

[FartherWest]

"Swiss Cheesy" Exactly! It's hard enough to contemplate drilling holes in a new boat, but impossible to think of doing that many.

The pad eyes and a variety of other things have been in the garage for awhile but... well... there had to be a better way which is why I finally asked for ideas here. The p-clips are a great idea but I really like the idea of using small nylon loops instead. That is a DIY project I can do at home fairly easily.

Stealing this picture from Alan Gage's post back in March of 2016:

Would you suggest mounting them in this location or along the skirt(?)? (Please forgive me, I am still learning vocabulary).

Thank you all for your input - I am beginning to feel a lot better about this.

Mike - regarding the webbing loops, do you have any pictures of where you have them mounted? Also went and looked at Mike Yee's page, you are correct, lots of good information there.

 

[FartherWest]

When I bagged my Swift I used the method described by Mike McCrea. I was able to turn the canoe up on it's side and drill using a regular battery powered DE Walt. I used most of the parts from the NorthWater kit and it worked perfectly in the royalex boat. I had never done it before but it worked out just fine.

That is a beautiful job! Where did you get those bags?

 

[Canotrouge]

That is a beautiful job! Where did you get those bags?

Shawn Alexender, Fall Line canoe/bomber bags!! http://www.falllinecanoes.com
No affiliation, He's just a great guy to deal with and make the best bag available!!

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I have no idea where and what kind of waters you are going to paddle or what your experience level is, but I'd question whether you need bags at all. The vast majority of flat water paddlers don't use them. Whitewater paddlers do. Too many paddlers buy too much stuff they don't really need and rarely use. (Mea mea mea mea culpa.)

I've never drilled holes through the hull of a composite canoe, and wouldn't, especially an expensive hull. It's a different story for a dedicated whitewater canoe, the hull of which will be pummeled relentlessly by rocks and hard places and in which float bags will permanently reside.

If you are married to the idea of bags, you could glue loop tracks under the inwales to avoid any drilling whatsoever, although I question their aesthetics:

If you want to drill holes to thread line through, I'd do it through the metal skirt (flange?) on the underside of the gunwale itself.

If you want to use some sort of eye hardware, pblanc's idea of drilling out the existing rivet holes is a reasonable one.

I've never had aluminum gunwales, but for purposes of not drilling holes in the hull and having minimal visual intrusion, I'd go with nylon sleeve eyes (p clips) underneath the inwale. You can see different approaches to this in THIS THREAD from the Song of the Paddle website, which is probably where Alan Gage got the photo you copied.

 

[Nodrama43]

Shawn Alexender, Fall Line canoe/bomber bags!! http://www.falllinecanoes.com
No affiliation, He's just a great guy to deal with and make the best bag available!!

I flipped that 60 lb royalex boat in my pond and I was not happy with how little of the canoe was actually out of the water. I bought it for river trips and wanted a little extra for the class 2+ - 3 stuff I might run into. The bags are VERY nice and the owner (Shawn) of Fall Line was super to deal with. I still have enough room in the Raven for all my stuff and Rex the dog.

I glued in a loop on each side and one in the floor that I can also use an another tie down point for gear. I have several other loops left that I will eventually put in the canoe as well. When I am on river trips I tie everything in so I do not have to go searching for it. The bags are a great addition for my needs. If you saw me paddle a canoe in rapids you would understand....... I hope to get better as I paddle more.

 

[Canotrouge]

I flipped that 60 lb royalex boat in my pond and I was not happy with how little of the canoe was actually out of the water. I bought it for river trips and wanted a little extra for the class 2+ - 3 stuff I might run into. The bags are VERY nice and the owner (Shawn) of Fall Line was super to deal with. I still have enough room in the Raven for all my stuff and Rex the dog.

I glued in a loop on each side and one in the floor that I can also use an another tie down point for gear. I have several other loops left that I will eventually put in the canoe as well. When I am on river trips I tie everything in so I do not have to go searching for it. The bags are a great addition for my needs. If you saw me paddle a canoe in rapids you would understand....... I hope to get better as I paddle more.

I just sent Shawn an order for some bag to put in the new boat I ordered today. I should have everything ready for the beginning of the season in may!!

 

[FartherWest]

I flipped that 60 lb royalex boat in my pond and I was not happy with how little of the canoe was actually out of the water. I bought it for river trips and wanted a little extra for the class 2+ - 3 stuff I might run into. The bags are VERY nice and the owner (Shawn) of Fall Line was super to deal with. I still have enough room in the Raven for all my stuff and Rex the dog.

The bags are a great addition for my needs. If you saw me paddle a canoe in rapids you would understand....... I hope to get better as I paddle more.

I learned years ago that I can sink almost anything, including those things which are not supposed to be sinkable (a lesson my 4-H leader learned the hard way). Class 2-3 are the goal with the boat, and given that, rocks are more possible then I would like to admit. Self-rescues are also a must and floating just a tad higher in the water makes that easier too.

Think I'll be saving up some $$ for a new set of bags down to road. When that times comes hopefully I will have saved enough to be in contact with Shawn.

I will look into the p clips more this evening.

The existing spacing between the rivets which hold the gunwale to the hull are about 9 inches apart, just a tad too far for my liking. If I add a rivet in between, then I have 4.5 inch spacing which seems reasonable but perhaps a tad close together but might involve fewer holes. Of course, if I mount p-clips to the bottom of the gunwales the way several pictures illustrate that isn't an issue. Decisions.

Please keep the ideas coming, they are appreciated.

PS - Glenn, I have those exact straps in my garage. Their use is as yet to be determined.

 

[Nodrama43]

at this time I have no plans to bag the carbon Northstar Polaris tandem or the new Shearwater. I am also not planning on getting them to awfully close to rocks either.

 

[pblanc]

I learned years ago that I can sink almost anything, including those things which are not supposed to be sinkable (a lesson my 4-H leader learned the hard way). Class 2-3 are the goal with the boat, and given that, rocks are more possible then I would like to admit. Self-rescues are also a must and floating just a tad higher in the water makes that easier too.

Think I'll be saving up some $$ for a new set of bags down to road. When that times comes hopefully I will have saved enough to be in contact with Shawn.

I will look into the p clips more this evening.

The existing spacing between the rivets which hold the gunwale to the hull are about 9 inches apart, just a tad too far for my liking. If I add a rivet in between, then I have 4.5 inch spacing which seems reasonable but perhaps a tad close together but might involve fewer holes. Of course, if I mount p-clips to the bottom of the gunwales the way several pictures illustrate that isn't an issue. Decisions.

Please keep the ideas coming, they are appreciated.

PS - Glenn, I have those exact straps in my garage. Their use is as yet to be determined.

I would consider 9" between laces to be too far. Four and a half is perhaps a bit closer than necessary, but is very good. On whitewater boats I will frequently space the laces 4" apart to keep the flotation bags well restrained within the hull.

Remember that when water gets in your hull, it will layer out and float and try to float lighter than water items. This may not affect large items like packs and barrels because there won't be enough water displacement to float the weight, but it will definitely affect items like float bags. It will cause them to pooch up between the laces.

 

[Uncle_Skwid]

I vote for taking giant pieces of sheet metal and riveting a storage compartment over your bow and stern bags to seal them in your boat. It might add a little weight to your setup but hey, when you finally get sick of lugging the boat around and abandon it beside the river, future paddlers will make honorary pilgrimages to visit what will then become known as the Folly Of FartherWest. It's even got a nice literary ring to it.

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[Glenn MacGrady]

Here is another option I stumbled across while talking to Clipper Canoe today about D-rings. They have sewable D-rings with a swivel plastic base -- the black ones in this picture:

Lynn there tells me they can also be effectively used for bag lashing on aluminum gunwales. The rectangular tab can be slipped up between the gunwale skirt and the hull. It can then be pop riveted from the outside through the skirt. I assume these would dangle down unobtrusively when not used for lashing and swivel horizontally when lashed. Lynn seemed very knowledgeable about this.

I was looking for these gray D-rings for hull floor gear and bag lashing, which I found at Clipper thanks to an old post by pblanc on pnet:

 

[Canotrouge]

Here is another option I stumbled across while talking to Clipper Canoe today about D-rings. They have sewable D-rings with a swivel plastic base -- the black ones in this picture:

Lynn there tells me they can also be effectively used for bag lashing on aluminum gunwales. The rectangular tab can be slipped up between the gunwale skirt and the hull. It can then be pop riveted from the outside through the skirt. I assume these would dangle down unobtrusively when not used for lashing and swivel horizontally when lashed. Lynn seemed very knowledgeable about this.

I was looking for these gray D-rings for hull floor gear and bag lashing, which I found at Clipper thanks to an old post by pblanc on pnet:

The first one mention, the sewn in, are not really good, they tent to rip from the rivets or screws! I don't use them anymore.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

The first one mention, the sewn in, are not really good, they tent to rip from the rivets or screws! I don't use them anymore.

I can picture this happening if the rectangular base just by itself is riveted through the hull or onto the inside face of the metal gunwale skirt. But if the rectangular base is wedged completely up and sandwiched between the hull and the metal gunwale skirt, it would seem impossible for it to rip out at the rivet. Excessive force should break the D-ring off the plastic base. No?

 

[pblanc]

I have the Clipper D ring lash tabs in my Clipper Viper12 and they have been good so far.