Thoughts on Grasse River/GRB Newman Classic?

[tketcham]

Anyone have experience paddling a GRB Newman Classic 15' 8"?

I'm thinking of adding a fast solo touring canoe to the quiver and was wondering if anyone has experience with the Grasse River Boatworks / Newman Classic (not Classic XL) canoe. There's a fair amount of discussion of the XL version but I haven't found as much information regarding the Classic. I owned a Wenonah Advantage for many years and really enjoyed that canoe but sold it to make room for a solo tripping canoe, a Hemlock Kestrel. I also have two sport canoes and I'm going to sell one of them to make room for a boat like the GRB Classic, which should be a nice canoe for fast day trips, which I miss.

The Classic appears to be a bit more seaworthy and predictable than the Advantage with better touring potential, but that’s speculation on my part, thus the question. I've taken a Classic XL out for a spin in some wind chop and loved it's potential but would prefer a shorter boat that's a bit more maneuverable and better suited to my <150 lbs weight.

Your thoughts?

 

[SouthernKevlar]

I can't exactly speak for the GRB Classic 15'8" as I have the GRB Classic XL (16'8"), but I can say that the canoe is surprisingly versatile. I bought it as a fun "go fast" canoe for day trips, but have also loaded it for a 4-5 day trip in the Adirondacks. It handled the extra load just fine. The build quality that I have seen on the GRBs is top notch and the weights are amazingly low. My 16'8" XL weighs 25 lbs. on my bathroom scales.

For a bit more maneuverability, you may want to check out the GRB Legend. At 14'7" it may have a bit less carrying capacity and less speed, but may be better for twisty rivers. My XL is fast on the straight, but not fast in the turns.

 

[tketcham]

... I can say that the canoe is surprisingly versatile.

Thanks for the reply. I have a Northstar Firebird for twisty streams (if that's a big part of the trip) and the Hemlock Kestrel is good for lakes and ponds and negotiates streams fairly well. But I'm wanting a canoe that is more for fast day tours; the ability to do multi-day trips covering lots of miles would be a bonus. The Classic might be what I'm looking for. I don't weigh much and pack lightly so I think the Classic should be fine and the shorter length will help on the stretches of twisty stream.

 

[captainkirk]

I may have missed it on their website, but are the GRB boats all carbon or some other laminate? I am looking at the legend as a possible fit, but most of my water bodies have rocks and I don't want to destroy it.

Thanks

 

[gumpus]

Just a few comments tketcham...

Overall I think you're wise to look for a boat that fits you. I haven't paddled either GRB (classic or XL) but I've never seen a bad word posted about them.

I'm curious if you kneel or sit in your Firebird and Kestrel. I'm primarily a kneeler and kneeling has always felt like a much more powerful position than sitting to me. Could just be conditioning.

I have an Advantage that I like a lot. I like the size (medium volume, like me...I'm around 180), the adjustability (sliding seat and foot brace), the manufacturing quality, and I like it's personality...it seems to hum along and tease you into paddling a little harder. One time I compared it to my low volume Blackhawk Zephyr paddling hard over 5 miles and the Zephyr averaged 4.6 mph (kneel and switch) vs 4.4 in the Advantage (sit and switch). Lots of variables so my only conclusion is that the Zephyr feels fast because it is. I owned a Kestrel years ago (mine cost $1500) and my take is that it's a fast boat too. My buddy beat a C1 over a mile in his Trillium; I consider Trillium to be fast.

I also have a Rapidfire. It is clearly faster than Advantage and far more seaworthy, although the only time I avoid using the Advantage is in high river current. Rapidfire also turns way better than Advantage (and better than Kestrel). Rapidfire squirts forward like a water bug while Advantage feels like an electric boat that you charge by paddling. Rapidfire is so efficient that it seems difficult to get a workout.

But my butt hurts paddling the Advantage or Rapidfire for more than an hour while I can paddle a kneeling boat for 6-8 hours comfortably so for me if I plan to cover miles I use a kneeling boat.

Hopefully the Classic is small enough that you don't get the skin friction feeling that I get with some zero rocker go-fast boats. I tend to prefer boats like Kestrel (I often paddle a Merlin II and Ive put a lot of miles on a Peregrine) that may not feel like they glide like Advantage but they also feel like they have zero skin friction and just squirt forward with every stroke.

Also just FYI I'm told there are 3 different versions of Advantage, I think each was "detuned" to make it more friendly. I don't know how big the differences are. Mine is a recent version and I consider it well behaved.

Even if the Classic doesn't give you a big speed advantage over your Kestrel I think you may enjoy having an entirely different type of boat. Maybe we can race some time; I'll use your Kestrel.

 

[SouthernKevlar]

I may have missed it on their website, but are the GRB boats all carbon or some other laminate? I am looking at the legend as a possible fit, but most of my water bodies have rocks and I don't want to destroy it.

Thanks

I think that I remember reading that they are a Carbon/Kevlar laminate, but I am not 100% positive on that; my memory banks are filling up after all these years.

As light as it is, I do all I can to avoid rocks with it but I've got a Royalex canoe for that rocky river paddling. I do wet-foot it and choose my landing sites a bit more carefully with my carbon boats than I do my heavier lay-ups. For my composites and Royalex canoes I go by "The heavier the canoe, the rougher the use" rule of thumb and the GBR isn't heavy.

 

[tketcham]

I'm curious if you kneel or sit in your Firebird and Kestrel. I'm primarily a kneeler and kneeling has always felt like a much more powerful position than sitting to me. Could just be conditioning.

I have an Advantage that I like a lot. I like the size (medium volume, like me...I'm around 180), the adjustability (sliding seat and foot brace), the manufacturing quality, and I like it's personality...it seems to hum along and tease you into paddling a little harder.

I kneel almost exclusively in the Firebird, mainly because I use the canoe more for functional freestyle and twisty streams than for touring, although I have done some tripping with the Firebird. I preferred to kneel even then. In the Kestrel it depends on what I'm doing at the time, functional freestyle or cruising. For cruising I sit-and-switch and use a bent shaft paddle to go from point A to point B but then kneel with a straight shaft paddle for exploring marshy areas or interesting shorelines or streams. I also kneel in the Kestrel if the wind/waves are building and I'm paddling along a sketchy stretch of shoreline with no place to land. The Kestrel does go right along for a touring canoe but it's not the same as cruising in an Advantage, built in 1999 I believe. I never did take the Advantage out on trips though, for that I had a Clipper Sea-1. Basically I sold both the Sea-1 and the Advantage and bought a Kestrel to serve as a sort of, kind of, hybrid surrogate. If I could own only one solo canoe it could easily be a Kestrel or Trillium.

The Classic is just rising to the top among several cruising canoes I've been considering, including the GRB/Newman Classic, Savage River Blackwater 15, and Swift Cruiser 15.8. I've done quick paddles with the Classic XL and Blackwater 17 and they both seem to accelerate fairly well and maintain a decent speed without too much effort. I think I'll appreciate the shorter length for either model. Haven't tried a Cruiser 15.8. I do notice a difference in acceleration between the Firebird and other, longer hulls I've paddled; the 13.5' Firebird practically jumps off the line. (It even seems faster off the line compared to canoes of similar hull shape and length.) But for me, in considering a cruising/tripping canoe, acceleration is not as important as efficiency in maintaining speed. You know, for when we're racing.

 

[tketcham]

... Advantage feels like an electric boat that you charge by paddling.

I know what you mean but that can also be a good thing if the charging effort is fairly consistent and maintainable over time, like peddling a bicycle up a moderate hill with the right gear ratio and cadence. It doesn't seem like much effort considering you're going uphill. Plus, the feeling of rapid acceleration can also mean the canoe slows down faster or goes off course easier, not a given, but I've noticed it. The Advantage and Kestrel don't accelerate particularly quick but they do carry their speed/momentum better than the Firebird for example. I've always wanted to try a Wenonah Whisper, the smaller sibling to the Advantage.

Wenonah Whisper 15' 6"

 

[Alan Gage]

I've always wanted to try a Wenonah Whisper, the smaller sibling to the Advantage.

Wenonah Whisper 15' 6"

They must not have sold very many of those. A friend of mine bought one used quite a few years ago. I remember researching it at the time and found virtually nothing. I paddled it a bit and enjoyed it (I'm 165). I did not find it tippy but I was racing at that time and "tippy" is relative. It was a nice flatwater day paddling boat, which is what she uses it for.

Alan

 

[M Clemens]

I know what you mean but that can also be a good thing if the charging effort is fairly consistent and maintainable over time, like peddling a bicycle up a moderate hill with the right gear ratio and cadence. It doesn't seem like much effort considering you're going uphill. Plus, the feeling of rapid acceleration can also mean the canoe slows down faster or goes off course easier, not a given, but I've noticed it. The Advantage and Kestrel don't accelerate particularly quick but they do carry their speed/momentum better than the Firebird for example. I've always wanted to try a Wenonah Whisper, the smaller sibling to the Advantage.

Wenonah Whisper 15' 6"

I had a 1985 Whisper (Gen1) in FG for a while. I still maintain, although I have no proof, I could paddle faster in it than my 1997 Advantage. The 50 pounds eventually got the best of me though. She was fast, but a bear to turn.

 

[tketcham]

They must not have sold very many of those.

I think you're right, you just don't see them around very often. I can only think of one that I definitely knew was a Whisper. One came up for sale in 2018 that I almost called about, but it was further away than I wanted to drive. This is a section from the Wenonah catalog (mid-80s?). I noticed that it has 15' 0" for the Whisper but most web postings have it at 15' 6".

 

[TDG1515]

did you go with the GRB Classic? Curious about your decision. I had the Shadow and GRB XL and found them a little too big. I have my next purchase narrowed down to the Classic, Rapidfire or Swift 14.8.

 

[tketcham]

did you go with the GRB Classic?

I got busy and then was traveling for a bit so haven't been working on it. I may try to visit the Newman's shop so I can try one out before I buy.

 

[tketcham]

did you go with the GRB Classic?

I drove up to Grasse River Boatworks today and paddled a 15' 8" Classic on a stretch of the Grasse River, about 4 miles up and back (round trip). I liked the canoe enough to put a down payment on one.

What convinced me to buy one? Flies along and tracks well; six to eight strokes per side with a 12-degree bent shaft paddle. Turns OK when heeled a bit using a straight shaft paddle. It's not a sport canoe, obviously, but does maneuver better than I expected. I'll report back when I pick the canoe up later this summer and have a chance to test it out in variable conditions.

 

[TDG1515]

Congratulations on the GRB Classic! Trying it out first was a smart move. Looking forward to your report in a couple of months.

 

[gumpus]

did you go with the GRB Classic? Curious about your decision. I had the Shadow and GRB XL and found them a little too big. I have my next purchase narrowed down to the Classic, Rapidfire or Swift 14.8.

Just FYI I have a Rapidfire that I recently concluded that I could sell. I'm in SW MI if you want to look it over and try it.

 

[TDG1515]

Hi gumpus, I am definitely interested. I have had a chance to try one (my camp is 30 minutes from Placid Boatworks). I do not mind paying for shipping. Can you let me know the overall condition, price, etc? My cell is 585-749-0357 and my email is tgreen@alescoadvisors.com
Thank you!

 

[yknpdlr]

I think you will like the RapidFire veruy much. It is faster and more stable with an easy single blade paddle stroke than you may expect, not quite as light weight (by only a couple of pounds) or as fast (by only a couple of tenths mph) than the less stable narrower PB Shadow and has just enough rocker to be very maneuveralble with a single blade. Plenty of capacity for a full camping load of gear for a week or more. The RF has been my main goto solo tripping canoe, since my Gen1 model first came out of Joe's PB mold 20 years ago.

Not to take anything away from GRB either, Gene and John Newman, makers of very fine light weight fast boats.

 

[TDG1515]

I think you will like the RapidFire veruy much. It is faster and more stable with an easy single blade paddle stroke than you may expect, not quite as light weight (by only a couple of pounds) or as fast (by only a couple of tenths mph) than the less stable narrower PB Shadow and has just enough rocker to be very maneuveralble with a single blade. Plenty of capacity for a full camping load of gear for a week or more. The RF has been my main goto solo tripping canoe, since my Gen1 model first came out of Joe's PB mold 20 years ago.

Not to take anything away from GRB either, Gene and John Newman, makers of very fine light weight fast boats.

Thank you! I have read many of your posts and I know you have great knowledge. My experience owning a Shadow was not good, and, for the short time I owned one, I felt the Classic XL was too big for me. I have paddled the RF and I hope it works out with finding one. I have narrowed it down to the RF and the Swift.

 

[yknpdlr]

May I ask why you did not like the Shadow?
I had wanted one for several years, because on the 90 mile race it wipes all of the previously sold RapidfFire and similar solo canoes. But I was turned off because while I always see Joe winning his race class on the 90 mile canoe race (now with his Shadow), he always told me that I could have one at "this time next year" due to his build time. Too late to train in it for next year's race, so I did not order one. Finally, my wife surprise ordered one for me for our 50th anniversary. I asked Joe to mount the seat 1.5 inches higher on a rail than the highest standard drop-in floor mounted seat option, to make my preference of single blade paddling easier and more efficient. At first he refused, because the past 3 customers he did that for soon asked that the seat to be lowered since the canoe was then just too tippy for them to keep it upright. So mine is rather more tippy than my RapidFire, but I can accept it, as while paddling underway it is easy to maintain head to sky while moving at any speed greater than 0mph. I did discover that being as tippy as it is, makes it uncomfortably unsteady to hold a weighty 35mm camera at eye level while stopped with the elevated arm and camera CG. But I accept that for its speed and maneuverability.

My other solo choice while waiting for the Shadow was a Swift Cruiser 15-8. that Bill personally delivered to me at my home just one month after I custom ordered it (also with a higher than standard seat). I find that it paddles much like my RapidFire, similar in speed and handling, but feels larger and wider.

Then a friend asked me try his new SR Blackwater that he was having trouble with keeping on a straight track. I could not tell by observing what he was doing to cause a constant left drift bias, no matter how he paddled it. When I tried it, I fell in love with its speed, straight track, firm at all speeds (including zero mph) stability, and handling, even though it has virtually no rocker. But with a natural heel strangely opposite from my other solos, it can he made to nicely carve a tight 180 degree turn around a buoy. It is my new favorite solo canoe.