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The Other end of the telescope.....

I agree, Alan. I was thinking to post something very similar.

Very well put, Odyssey. We all have equal rights, and we should all work to respect each others desires. I know there is no utopia, and that individual desires will overlap somewhat, but that should not be an issue if we display tolerance.

BTW, I too am in agreement with saying something to that person who has not properly trained their dog, but it is totally unfair to suggest that all owners are the same. I have found many canoeists that have left a mess behind them, which I have had to clean up, yet don't label all canoeists with the same brush.

Bad dog owners
Bad canoeists
Bad drivers
Bad hunters
Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad
BUT, is not all of them. The bad ones just seem to stand out more.
 
I'm not going to waste time arguing against straw men, irrelevant tangents or ad hominem statements.

Of course I believe dogs should be exercised. That's not the topic. The topic is taking my dogs unleashed into public canoe camping places where they will inevitably interact with other people, most of whom want no part of my dog.

I'm not talking about walking my dog on a leash around the neighborhood. I'm talking about letting my dog run unleashed in public canoe, camping and portaging places.

I'm not talking about training a dog to sit, heel or come in the house or on the sidewalk. I'm talking about how to train a dog how to behave in a crowd of humans, or with a bunch of farm animals, or in the presence of surprise visits by wild animals. I've rarely seen any town dog or town owner who has that level of training experience. City dogs don't belong on the farm or in the woods.

It should be plainly obvious that almost every organized town and incorporated area has rules about unleashed pets, or the mere presence of any pets, in public areas. Many campgrounds don't allow dogs at all. Why? Because dogs crap all over the place, snuffle around tents, beg for food, take other people's property in their mouths, scare small children, lavish unwanted affection on strangers who don't want any part of them, and not infrequently act overprotective and bite or attack people. That's why dogs annoy and are affirmatively disliked my many people--even other dog owners--and why there are rules against their presence in virtually all public places. And that's why I respect other people's feelings and don't take my dogs in public places--whether canoeing or non-canoeing places.

Oh, the horror . . . the horror . . . the horror . . . of leaving a dog in a kennel (EGAD!!! - how cruel) or with a family neighbor or friend when one is on vacation, a business trip or a canoe trip. People suffused with such mental horrors perhaps shouldn't be pet owners. They certainly shouldn't be farmers, who slaughter their livestock, sale reps or other frequent business travelers, or retired people who like to travel the world. (Yet all theose people do manage to own happy dogs, who are often left behind. How can that be?)

I can't think of any words to describe dog owners who, knowing of the dislike, disapproval and outright fear of dogs by the majority of other people in public places nevertheless foist their animals on those other people in those public places -- other than the words selfish, self-absorbed and inconsiderate. In my opinion as a dog owner for 68 years, those are precisely the appropriate English adjectives to describe that kind of dog owner behavior.

Now, if one is out in truly remote wilderness where are no public campgrounds, no contrary rules, and very little likelihood of meeting another human being, then I think natural rights of man should allow one to bring a dog as a companion. However, very few canoeists I know, including myself, canoe in such actual wilderness more than a very few times in their lives.

Finally, anyone who reads a simple but strong opinion on a subject and attributes it to "anger" must not be used to reading strong opinions. I may think your paddle, canoe, spouse, kid or boombox stinks, but that doesn't at all mean I'm angry at them or you. It just means I have an opinion. Which I may change next week. I'm opinionated but open minded, and too old to harbor corrosive emotions such as anger.
 
Wow, religion, politics...and now dogs? Who'd a thunka the canine fraternity could raise such a ruckus on a canoe website. It's not like someone is peeing in the river or something, or using an inside tarp and an outside tarp. The Bow Wow Brouhaha, ha ha!
 
I was visiting my friend the other day, and found him playing chess with his dog.
"Wow!" I said. "Your dog must be brilliant! It knows how to play chess?!"
My friend said "He's not so smart. I've beaten him 3 out of 5 games."
 
I'm not talking about training a dog to sit, heel or come in the house or on the sidewalk. I'm talking about how to train a dog how to behave in a crowd of humans, or with a bunch of farm animals, or in the presence of surprise visits by wild animals. I've rarely seen any town dog or town owner who has that level of training experience.

I've never found any of those things to call for much actual training, just the simple act of bringing your dog with you almost any time you go somewhere and familiarizing them with such things. When it's not new it's not a big deal to them, just a matter of habituation. But I suppose if a dog never gets off leash and never leaves the city dog park they'll never learn such things.

There are lots of public places that have no resemblance to wilderness where the chances of bumping into more than one or two other people on the trails is remote. That's where we responsible dog owners are if we want our dogs off leash. I can't comment on the issue of dogs running around off leash in populated public camp grounds or places with lots of people hiking trails because I don't spend any time in them.

Alan
 
I was visiting my friend the other day, and found him playing chess with his dog.
"Wow!" I said. "Your dog must be brilliant! It knows how to play chess?!"
My friend said "He's not so smart. I've beaten him 3 out of 5 games."
I'm afraid I might not win even one..... LOL
 
I take my friendly, well-behaved 11-year-old herding dog - who never needs a leash in my presence - to the local dog park every day. And every day I go prepared to deal with some dog(s) that want to put their paws on me or somehow think I'm a threat to them or their owner. Some benighted people object to the ways I keep dogs off me - pushing against their noses, stepping forward to lean over them, pushing them aside unceremoniously. Too bad. What's too bad is that the dog takes the consequences of the owner's failure to (a) create the proper relationship with the dog, and (b) use that relationship to teach the dog manners. Without (a), (b) will never happen.

I am utterly intolerant of badly-behaved dogs, and only grudgingly tolerant of their handlers.

What of my dog? He loves any creature with hands. He is neither overdominant nor submissive, never goes on the furniture or puts his paws on people, and is always courteous and diffident with other dogs. I've taught him manners, but for the most part his good behavior is the result of a good temperament.

I've gone on many canoe trips without my dog, and I've never kenneled him. I found a home with a couple of kids, several other dogs, and parents who share my dog-behavior values. If they weren't available, I have other options with friends who my dog considers his pack. This is the crux of the thing: dogs want to be with their packs. If I had no "pack" option I would probably bring him with me. Why? Because he wants to be with me. He's happy under any circumstances as long as I'm there.

Glenn, I've used kennels in the past, and only as a last resort. Dogs experience it as we would a prison, except they have no idea why they've been put there. In my view, it comes close to being cruel.

If your dog is well-behaved and you're inclined to bring it with you, do so. The dog will probably be happier about it than you.
 
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While I am not overly enamoured of dogs, they seem to like me for some reason.I can see where they might be a comfort to the solitary traveller. Personally I dont like having them around much. Come to think of it, I dont much like people either. Soooo, people AND dogs...not a winning combination for me.

One caveat to that ....a dog that kills snakes would be my best friend.

Maybe a pet bear.

Christy
 
Well, there are a whole bunch of things in this world I can't do anything about. A bunch of knot headed people who I'll never be able to reach or build a bridge over to them.
But I can train my dogs, we both will enjoy it and in a social sense we can serve as a good example. Maybe someone will be moved to train their dog as well, I hope so anyway.

For the dog owner and his dog, I'd offer this note of caution: Have you dog well trained and under control and always with you. There are some seriously "bent" people out there, some relish the idea of a lucrative law suit, some will try to hurt your dog and some are invested in a perpetual victim mentality. They all spell trouble.

I never go anywhere without my dog. (Oh, the bathroom; somethings are best done alone) We are always together and for the most fundamental of reasons: we love each other and when we're apart we miss each other badly. I don't know how to say it any more clear than that and if you don't understand........I'm really sorry for you.

Best Wishes, Rob
 
A dog training tip I've never seen in print, was given to me by an old trainer:

From first puppy-hood, handle your dog gently every which way. Check his teeth and gums, sniff his ears, check his pads and trim those toenails. Gently get him on his back and rub and check his tummy, his underarms for matting and so on. Comb out his coat, at first he'll squirm but if you're careful he will soon learn that it's pleasant to be groomed. Just don't give in to his trying to wiggle away. Oh, the sniff the ear thing? A healthy ear will smell kinda good but if you ever encounter a smell like old nasty gym socks, that tells you there is an ear infection. Not at all uncommon with water dogs.

What's going on here is that first, the dog is getting looked after in all particulars and second he's really getting used to having your hands all over him and it's OK.
If he's ever involved in some kind of accident to where he needs first aid or dressing changing, he will accept your help without getting all hysterical and adding to the problems. Probably the worst example I've ever seen was a friend's lab who got in a fight with a porcupine. Thank God the dog was used to being handled; the owner and I worked a long time getting all the quills out, one of us holding the flashlight and dog and the other with long nose pliers.
One more reason to keep your dog close.

Of course I've employed this idea with my present dog, a long haired collie. Her coat could be a nightmare, but she's so docile and calm while I'm grooming her that it's a pleasure for the both of us. Never had a dog with such long hair and all, but with a little learning curve and the right combs, it's really not that hard. Plus it's fun having a really good looking dog on your leash!

Best Wishes, Rob
 
Just read the whole thread. Had a couple thoughts come to mind. Then after taking another look I decided not to wade in to these waters. Some where way back aways Glenn mentioned a Yeti. I'm thinking of starting a new less controversial post like Yeti or UFO encounters while canoe tripping. JK.

For the record, I like a well behaved dog / owner combo but it's the bad apples that seem to stand out in my mind. Especially the owners that think that every thing their dog does is cute. Hey look, Lovey is pissing on your Corvette rims, he's marking his territory, he thinks it's his now. Are you going to give us the keys?
 
Rob (OM), in this thread you have made many many excellent points in selecting and training dogs. If every one had your dedication to training their dog there wouldn't be any controversy in this thread at all. It seems that most all these problems people have experienced are bad training or poor choice by the owner. Judging by the lack of personal responsibility exhibited in the world, I don't think it is going to get better anytime soon. I would like to think that there is a higher then average level of responsibility in the people of this forum. Other wise Darwin would take over and our numbers would be shrinking instead of growing. Best wishes for good tripping in the coming new year. Dave
 
If you take the time to train them well, I would be glad to visit with them on a canoe trip. :)


I have never been able to fully train Yeti or Sasquatch. They get pissy and cop an attitude when you run out of Jack Link's jerky. Some time I will start a thread about my Sasquatch calling ability.
 
Two times we were set upon by the same German Shepard within the same week. We kept it at bay with sticks, but only barely. That dog was genuinely vicious and in attack mode. It's owners were a lovely old couple, who were clearly overwhelmed by their dog. I couldn't have helped snag it's collar without losing a limb. The first time it happened I sternly berated them for having it off leash against park bylaws. The second time I was very angry and gave them almighty crap. I threatened their dog, and threatened them with every course of legal action possible if I ever saw them with their dog off leash again. My mind had wandered to the many times our kids had rambled those same trails, the times I'd walked with the grandkids too. I'm not a complete jerk or monster. I felt bad for getting so angry, but I was at a loss how to get this couple to understand their responsibilities, and the risks they were taking. I also felt bad for the situation they might've been in. Had they accepted to doggy sit for family or friend, or adopted a body guard for self and home in these perilous times? In any case I felt for them, and to this day hope they've come through the years unscathed, and all those they've encountered.
Our daughter H and her beau S have a lovely dog Grace. It clearly has issues. Not with people so much (nervous of men), but with other dogs. They're working with Grace, but had an unhappy encounter recently. Another little yappy dog in an off leash park got yappy in Grace's face. Grace cowered as best she could before grabbing yappy by the foreleg and holding her down "Stay!" before retreating once again. Both owners were apologetic. S and H carried the little dog to it's home and offered to pay any vet bills. Little yappy's owner was a vet! She provided the treatments (leg fracture) at cost, which helped H and S immensely. They're both working students, so $ is hard earned. At the end of the day, both owners are still friendly. I said "I'm proud of you for offering and following through on paying. After all, yappy's owner didn't keep her little pet in control. That is her responsibility. Some might call this a predictable ending. But, at the end of the day you didn't make sure Grace was protected from threat, and you are responsible for her behaviour. Be more diligent, more protective, and try to get your poor pooch socialized." I may be right or wrong, or both. I don't know. What I am, is trying to see both sides of a non- debate. Some "bad" owners are just lazy, and wind up with "bad" dogs. But some owners are overwhelmed and lost, while others are trying and training to arrive at the "good" side, they're just not there yet.
Go ahead and call me an old softie, that's okay. I only have one pair of eyes with which to see the world, and I know what kind of world I want to see. That doesn't change the fact that there are always a few asses I'd like to kick from time to time.
Many good thoughts running through this thread. I'd like to think we're all actually barking madly on the same side of the fence.
Oh, and by the way. On a trip once I saw a Bigfoot peeing in the lake and drinking instant coffee. Knowing they don't really exist, I yelled "Wait! Let me get my camera!" it jumped into a flat bottomed Coleman and double bladed away. One more arse I'd like to kick.
 
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Her coat could be a nightmare, but she's so docile and calm while I'm grooming her that it's a pleasure for the both of us. Never had a dog with such long hair and all, but with a little learning curve and the right combs, it's really not that hard.

Rob, not to go all feline on you, but the closest thing to a dog I have is an old Maine Coon Cat. She is an indoor/outdoor/shop cat and her long dense fur requires attention. It took a while when she was young, and it requires a long, wire bristled dog brush to get stuff out of that coat, but she now relishes being groomed, including belly and tail.

I’ve never had a cat as smart and well behaved. She likes being around people but isn’t underfoot. She is bothered by nothing; vacuum cleaners, noise from shop tools, snow on her coat or icicles on her belly.

She is more dog-like than any cat I’ve owned, like the feline version of a smart but lazy hound. I hope it is the breed; if there is ever another cat in my future I’ll look for another rescue coot cat kitten.
 
I spoke to my dear friend Ditto again about this. He uttered only one recognizable word. LEASH!.
Happy new year,Turtle
 
Swinging this thread back around to canoe tripping ... although I have the best-behaved dog I know (again, it's his temperament more than any training I've done) I won't take him on a long canoe trip. Why? Several reasons:

1. He'd be bored. He has a lot of human and canine interaction when I'm gone, in a setting that's even better for him than in our home. And he'd get no exercise other than portages.
2. He'd get very hot in the boat. He has a double coat and there's no shade out on the water (experience speaking here).
3. He'd pick up ticks. I use Frontline on him, but ticks like him anyway. They can hide in his coat and fall off him before they've started feeding (more experience here). The last thing I need is for Lyme-disease-bearing parasites to be swapping restaurants during the night.
4. He gets frisky in the middle of the night and wants to play.

I can deal with #4. It's the other three that put me off.
 
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