River Access?

[BWCA66]

http://www.rapidmedia.com/canoeing/categories/departments/4939-who-owns-the-river.html

Interesting article, don't face this much in Minnesota, at least the rivers I've been on.

 

[Muskrat]

Thats a tragic story. I remember reading about it. It's across the state from me and St. Louis paddlers have a reputation for being obnoxious. The story doesn't mention that they were all intoxicated and when a man comes down and threatens you off the bank with a gun you should just get moving and not argue and throw rocks at the guy. A tragedy that could have been avoided.

I brought up river rights in another thread. Our laws in Kansas are even worse. No paddling without landowners permission on each side of the river on all rivers expect for three which have public access.

In general doing a lot of paddling in Missouri, the state has great public access to a lot of beautiful ozark rivers and access clear across the state along the Missouri river. Using my manners I have never had any negative interactions with anyone along the river whether that be land owners, paddlers, fishers, or hunters.

ETA: I shouldn't group all St. Louis paddlers as obnoxious, but the meremac is real close to the city and is a river where hordes of people get as drunk and wild as possible. It's not a river that members of the forum would likely want to paddle for those reasons. Land owner and river goer tensions are much higher on those type of waters.

 

[Guest]

[FONT=&quot]I certainly don’t condone shooting paddlers to enforce misunderstood property rights, but there was a similar gunplay incident a few years ago on my local homeriver in which I had some sympathy for the homeowner.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]That is a VERY popular floating and paddling river in summertime. Made far worse when two competing tube rental places opened and began running tuber-taxi shuttles.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Hundreds upon hundreds of tubers on a summer weekend, often obnoxiously loud, drunk and littering. And I won’t claim that the private party paddlers were always much better.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]A longtime property owner adjoining the river got into a confrontation with a group beached on near his home one Sunday evening. Per the news stories, at 8pm. Having seen the tuber chaos and behavior there I can only imagine what his previous 12 hours, and the Saturday before, had been like in a once peaceful abode.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]That confrontation ended with him fetching a pistol and firing a few rounds into his lawn. Resulting in his arrest and lengthy/costly legal issues.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]I had met the guy a couple of times, including an episode where he and I endeavored to contact the proper authorities about ATV riders who were riding in and out of the river, and he struck me as a decent, relatively sensible guy, or at least not the type to resort to gunfire. A 12 hour Saturday of loud, drunk, pissing in the flowers tubers on his lawn and he just snapped.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]To be clear - I don’t condone shooting at, near, or, given that case, maybe even within sight of paddlers as a rational act. I have twice had rifle rounds zing past my head (producing an evil Doppler hiss when a round goes past in close enough proximity) while paddling other waters. Both times from idiots target shooting or plinking without a backstop or concern about where their rounds were impacting. And before anyone gets the wrong impression I own and shoot firearms.


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[FONT=&quot]I’ve been on the other end of landowner confrontations and, while I was doing nothing wrong and know my rights on the river, I just mea culpa moved along.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Can’t we all just learn to behave.

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[Steve in Idaho]

I feel really fortunate. My state has pretty clear law regarding river access and use for recreation, and it's very favorable to river users. Idaho rivers are open for public recreational use below normal high water mark, bank to bank, including islands within the meander - with few exceptions. Portage rights around obstructions are also protected by law. I usually only see conflict where a new landowner comes in from another state that doesn't have or enforce such favorable law. I have witnessed a couple attempts by such folks to assert control over the river bed, but that never goes anywhere once it's challenged. Fences that impede navigation can usually be removed by notifying authorities. I know of a couple exceptions to that, but they probably haven't yet been properly addressed by interested users.

I am unaware of any stretch of river here or in neighboring states that is plagued with drunken crowds abusing landowners though. The popular urban stretch of the Boise was getting a little rowdy until alcoholic beverages were banned on the river within the city. The lower stretch with no such regulation shows evidence of the trashy beer drinking crowd, but the surrounding landowners there are just as guilty on that count or more so. I suspect that nothing will change that status quo until the river has been "greenbelted" throughout the valley.

 

[bcelect]

http://www.adirondackexplorer.org/outtakes/ag-defends-right-to-paddle

After the court ruled in favor of paddlers, the landowner is now going to the court of appeals hoping to reverse the decision from the lower court.

 

[meopilite]

Never had a problem here in minnesota. I think the state owns the river banks. I have seen cases where a land owner has to pay taxes on a strip of land, but doesnt necessarily have rights to it. I believe farmers have to maintain ditches, but dont own them. If you buy a chunk of land next to a river, the tax boundaries need to be set somewhere. Sometimes its easier to just set them in the middle of the water. But you may not have rights to that boundary. Ocean front property owners cannot prevent people from walking along the shore. Even if they pay taxes 100 yards into the ocean.

 

[ppine]

Access is a growing problem. In the West we have a lot of public land, but sometimes private landowners block access to it. Fortunately the level of use on most rivers is low enough not to cause many problems. On remote rivers and those with short seasons, it is not that unusual to see wire across them. The best way for river users to maintain access is to be respectful and clean up your mess. Each state has different definitions of what rights river users have. Most allow beach access in the flood plain below the mean high water mark or some other type language. Hopefully we can all learn from the article, never to argue with someone about private land. Better to leave and avoid a confrontation.

I found that driving slowly and waving is always a good idea when using roads crossing private land. I like to ask permission and sometimes carry a bottle of whiskey to give away when people are reasonable. Be careful with gates and leave them the way you find them. Sometimes they are supposed to be open.

The State of Nevada is 87 % public land, but we still have places like the Carson River where there is a checkerboard of ownership. Find the best maps you can like USGS 7 1/2 minute or 15 minute quads so you can avoid private land when possible. Know the status of the land where you plan to camp for the night. Most people are reasonable if you are respectful.

 

[snapper]

Here in NYS I know I'm not the only person interested in the ultimate decision in the lawsuit leveled against Phil Brown by the Brandeth Association. So far the landowners have lost two 3-2 decisions. Apparently a 3-2 decision at the last level leads to an automatic appeal up the chain. After this process the only thing left is the US Supreme Court; and I don't think anyone really wants that. Until this is all resolved the waterway in question remains open to the public so now's the time to paddle this small stretch without penalty if folks are inclined to do so.

That's all for now. Take care and until next time...be well.

snapper

PS - I'm not a lawyer. All that I've written above is from numerous press releases and reports. I'm just relaying what I've read.

 

[Alan Gage]

Never had a problem here in minnesota. I think the state owns the river banks.

I believe it's dependent on the river and perhaps even depends on the stretch of the particular river. At least the Des Moines river in Minnesota, I believe, has privately owned land underneath the water so stepping onto a sandbar, if not adjacent to public land, is technically trespassing. Other rivers are fair game up to the normal high water mark. I believe Minnesota is better than most states however in the amount of rivers that don't have privately owned land under them.

I think a river right of way is looked at differently than a road right of way, at least in Iowa. The flowing water is considered the road so if you're in water you're ok. Step onto dry land and you're not in the public right of way anymore, even if it's normally covered with water 9 months out of the year.

Alan

 

[Steve in Idaho]

The State of Nevada is 87 % public land, but we still have places like the Carson River where there is a checkerboard of ownership. Find the best maps you can like USGS 7 1/2 minute or 15 minute quads so you can avoid private land when possible. Know the status of the land where you plan to camp for the night. Most people are reasonable if you are respectful.

At least in my state, BLM maps show where federal, state, and private land are in different colors. Some of the National Forest maps do also, but some are easier to read than others. I'd be surprised if you didn't find the same all over the west. You can usually get those maps at the office of the agency that has the majority of public land in the area.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

PPine also mentioned gates. A lot of public land in the west has fences and gates for grazing leases. These are rarely, if ever, exclusive access leases - so a gate isn't always indicative of private land. OTOH, in Idaho at least, a gate without any signage may still be private and not subject to legal trespass. I can't quote the state law from memory, but there are several ways to "post" private land in Idaho - some not even requiring a fence or a sign. The best bet is to have accurate land ownership and use maps of the area.

Some access routes do cross private land, but that doesn't mean you are not going to be allowed to use it. For instance, the road that goes to the upper Owyhee river - a popular canyon run with a very short season - can be used if you call ahead to the landowner with detailed description of your party and vehicle that will be used. Forget to ask permission or show up looking different than described.......expect to be escorted (or towed) off the property, likely with some hostility.

Oh, the gates.......Accepted practice on public land gates in the west, as mentioned by PPine, is to leave them as you find them unless otherwise indicated by sign. Ranchers on leased land often have reason to leave a gate open, and they are more pleasant to deal with when people aren't making their work unnecessarily more difficult.

 

[meopilite]

So if im caneoing on a river where a landowner owns the river bottom, and the fast current forces me and the canoe into a rock, and i become injured, i can sue the landowner?

 

[bcelect]

It depends. Were you hurt on the wet portion of the rock or the dry portion? We need more lawyers to answer.

http://www.adirondackexplorer.org/legaldefensefund

 

[ppine]

Good comments by Steve. I have worked with the ranching industry a lot in my career. It is not always obvious which roads are private. Maps that show ownership often do not show much detail.

There are now places like the South Fork of the American River in California, that I used to run every year in a raft, that have become so crowded that it is a real zoo to be avoided. I can only imagine what the crowded spots in the East are like.

 

[Alan Gage]

So if im caneoing on a river where a landowner owns the river bottom, and the fast current forces me and the canoe into a rock, and i become injured, i can sue the landowner?

You can sue anyone for anything you want. Whether or not you'll win is another matter.

Some landowners here worry about their liability should someone become injured along their stretch of river but I don't believe that worry is justified. Seems no different than someone skidding out of control, going off the road, and hitting a rock in someones pasture.

Alan

 

[bcelect]

You can sue anyone for anything you want. Whether or not you'll win is another matter.

Some landowners here worry about their liability should someone become injured along their stretch of river but I don't believe that worry is justified. Seems no different than someone skidding out of control, going off the road, and hitting a rock in someones pasture.

Alan

So true, we always hear about the frivolous lawsuits won by plaintiffs, but we seldom hear about all the ones that lose, or get tossed out by a judge. The landowners should ask for liability protection instead of tying up the courts with appeals. Paddlers should respect the landowners property as well. Unfortunately not everybody does, just look at the state of some of the campsites in disrepair and littered. All it takes is one bad apple to ruin it for everybody.