Raising seat height in my new Esqiif Echo?

[Whit30]

Loving how the boat handles and paddles but...
It sits very low, about 6" off the floor. Not that big a deal long as Im sitting, but Id like to be able to kneel from time to time and maybe install some thigh straps for when I want to run some more technical water, which this boat would do very well. But my feet won't go under the seat.
Therefore Im a bit too far forward in the boat and there's nothing to rest my butt on. Seems I need around 8" clearance, same as my Old Town Pack, in order to pull this off. Don't really want to go with a padded slightly angled thwart and be stuck with kneeling all the time. If I raise the seat 2" Id just about have to eliminate the hangers. Don't know what that would do to the boats structural integrity and I'm worried it may put my seated center of gravity too high.
Should I attach the seat directly to the gunnels? Id prob be ok stability wise if I always had the option to kneel. Are there thigh strap configurations for a sitting position which might give me more control? Would foot braces help me feel more connected to the boat for sharp eddy turns and such? Install some kind of pedestal foam seat held in place w/a thwart? Any sage advice would be appreciated.

 

[Alan Gage]

Attaching directly to the gunwales should be fine. The hangers would actually lessen the structural integrity as opposed to bolting it directly to the gunwales.

Since I primarily sit I would start by padding the seat to the correct height and then seeing how that affected sitting stability. If it's too tippy and you still want to sit then maybe look for another option.

Alan

 

[Steve in Idaho]

.... Seems I need around 8" clearance, same as my Old Town Pack, in order to pull this off.

I like to have at least 9" of clearance for my size 11 (US) feet.

Don't really want to go with a padded slightly angled thwart and be stuck with kneeling all the time. If I raise the seat 2" Id just about have to eliminate the hangers.

You'll need different hangers, but with the specced 11.5" depth you should be okay. I would make truss style hangers if it doesn't already have them. If cutting down existing trusses, cut off the bottoms. If you want to angle the seat more forward, you may have to make new trusses so the hole spacing will match.

Don't know what that would do to the boats structural integrity

As Alan pointed out, it should actually improve integrity.

and I'm worried it may put my seated center of gravity too high.
Should I attach the seat directly to the gunnels? Id prob be ok stability wise if I always had the option to kneel.

I also agree with Alan's suggestion to try with added padding first.

Are there thigh strap configurations for a sitting position which might give me more control?

I think we might have had a discussion about this here, but I don't know if anyone actually tried it yet. My guess is - possibly?

Would foot braces help me feel more connected to the boat for sharp eddy turns and such?

A foot brace does help. Not as much as kneeling IME, but definitely enough to be worth having.
(Edit: actually, my experience with the foot brace is in a zero rockered 15.5' canoe, and I don't have thigh straps in it for kneeling. So in that boat, the foot pegs are pretty much as good as kneeling - but not as good as kneeling with thigh straps like in my more river oriented canoes.)

Install some kind of pedestal foam seat held in place w/a thwart? Any sage advice would be appreciated.

I'm a fan of foam pedestals - aka saddles, combined with thigh straps. That's what I did with my MR Guide and with my Wildfire. If you make the back of the saddle wider than the front (think "bicycle seat"), you can both kneel and sit on it. You could also add thigh straps with your bench seat first.

 

[Whit30]

Attaching directly to the gunwales should be fine. The hangers would actually lessen the structural integrity as opposed to bolting it directly to the gunwales.

Since I primarily sit I would start by padding the seat to the correct height and then seeing how that affected sitting stability. If it's too tippy and you still want to sit then maybe look for another option.

Alan

Good to know. Trying a cushion first is a great idea!

 

[Whit30]

..........You'll need different hangers, but with the specced 11.5" depth you should be okay. I would make truss style hangers if it doesn't already have them. If cutting down existing trusses, cut off the bottoms. If you want to angle the seat more forward, you may have to make new trusses so the hole spacing will match..............

-------I'm a fan of foam pedestals - aka saddles, combined with thigh straps. That's what I did with my MR Guide and with my Wildfire. If you make the back of the saddle wider than the front (think "bicycle seat"), you can both kneel and sit on it............

"I would make truss style hangers if it doesn't already have them."
Yes they are truss style with the seat ever so slightly angled forward, but the angle isn't that important to me. I did think about making my own trusses about the same thickness as the seat timbers. The seat also dips down a bit in the middle but I don't think that will interfere with with getting my feet under it.

"cutting off the bottoms"
Do you mean trim the side attached to the gunnel or side attached to the the seat?

I will try the seat/hanger route before I look for a pedestal option. One as you described is exactly what I was thinking of. Ive see WW boats done that way. Don't really want to rig the boat for full on WW, want to keep it light as possible and doubt I'll be in anything over class II. The seat mod, straps, and some thin kneeling pad foam should make it WW/kneeling friendly enough for my purposes. Might not even need the straps. I can always add straps and air bags if I want to run anything hairier.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

"I would make truss style hangers if it doesn't already have them."
Yes they are truss style with the seat ever so slightly angled forward, but the angle isn't that important to me. I did think about making my own trusses about the same thickness as the seat timbers. The seat also dips down a bit in the middle but I don't think that will interfere with with getting my feet under it.

"cutting off the bottoms"
Do you mean trim the side attached to the gunnel or side attached to the the seat?

Cut the part attached to the seat. I used a bevel guide on my table saw, but given the small size of those hanger ends, it could be done with a hand saw.

I will try the seat/hanger route before I look for a pedestal option. One as you described is exactly what I was thinking of. Ive see WW boats done that way. Don't really want to rig the boat for full on WW, want to keep it light as possible and doubt I'll be in anything over class II. The seat mod, straps, and some thin kneeling pad foam should make it WW/kneeling friendly enough for my purposes. Might not even need the straps. I can always add straps and air bags if I want to run anything hairier.

That's what I did initially with the Guide. Just having the thigh straps makes a big difference in extended rapids - especially after you learn to edge the boat by lifting a knee, rather than weighting a knee. Just make sure you have a system for easily releasing the straps.

Another thing to keep in mind is that there are varying degrees of class 2. And it's a lot easier to escape from a pedestal than a bench seat. I was glad that I had a pedestal when I swam out of the Wildfire. No entanglement whatsoever.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

BTW, putting a saddle and straps in the Guide wasn't my idea. There were at least a couple others here locally who had done it, and what got me going was a quote from one of the OGs that the saddle turned a Guide into "a whole 'nuther boat". That was meant in a good way. Your Echo looks (on paper and in photos anyway) like something between the Guide and the Wildfire, so I think the same would apply to it.

 

[Whit30]

.....Just having the thigh straps makes a big difference in extended rapids - especially after you learn to edge the boat by lifting a knee, rather than weighting a knee. Just make sure you have a system for easily releasing the straps......

.....Another thing to keep in mind is that there are varying degrees of class 2. And it's a lot easier to escape from a pedestal than a bench seat. I was glad that I had a pedestal when I swam out of the Wildfire. No entanglement whatsoever......

I know where you're coming from. I have quite a bit of experience in WW up to class III+ in both open boats and yaks on rivers down here in the southeastern US. Back in my younger days I had a fully rigged out Mad River ME with a plastic saddle w/ preformed thigh hooks(old 14' banana boat from the 80s/90s) but I switched to a Yak and learned to roll in order to run longer and more difficult III+ like the Ocoee and sec III of the Chattooga. Ive done II+ to short & familiar III in my little Old Town Pack w/ the stock seat, straps, and bags, & even with no outfitting at all on II/III- rivers I know like the back of my hand. Swam a few times but never had any entanglement issues. I know it's an issue though, and I was careful how I rigged things.
But Ive just gotten old so I don't plan to do anything very difficult. Just wanting a bit more boat control for ferrying, catching eddies, surfing small waves, etc on easy stuff traversed by noobs on rental sit-on-tops Plus kneeling just makes for a more powerful and efficient stroke on a long flatwater pull.
A seat I can kneel against and some knee padding should be enough to do what I might do. I'll prob start with cutting down the existing truss hangers and go from there.
Thanks all for the input!

 

[Steve in Idaho]

.....Just having the thigh straps makes a big difference in extended rapids - especially after you learn to edge the boat by lifting a knee, rather than weighting a knee. Just make sure you have a system for easily releasing the straps......

.....Another thing to keep in mind is that there are varying degrees of class 2. And it's a lot easier to escape from a pedestal than a bench seat. I was glad that I had a pedestal when I swam out of the Wildfire. No entanglement whatsoever......

I know where you're coming from. I have quite a bit of experience in WW up to class III+ in both open boats and yaks on rivers down here in the southeastern US. Back in my younger days I had a fully rigged out Mad River ME with a plastic saddle w/ preformed thigh hooks(old 14' banana boat from the 80s/90s) but I switched to a Yak and learned to roll in order to run longer and more difficult III+ like the Ocoee and sec III of the Chattooga. Ive done II+ to short & familiar III in my little Old Town Pack w/ the stock seat, straps, and bags, & even with no outfitting at all on II/III- rivers I know like the back of my hand. Swam a few times but never had any entanglement issues. I know it's an issue though, and I was careful how I rigged things.
But Ive just gotten old so I don't plan to do anything very difficult. Just wanting a bit more boat control for ferrying, catching eddies, surfing small waves, etc on easy stuff traversed by noobs on rental sit-on-tops
A seat I can kneel against and some knee padding should be enough to do what I might do. I'll prob start with cutting down the existing truss hangers and go from there.
Thanks all for the input!

Cool.
I'm curious about your Echo. I wonder if it handles as much like a Wildfire as I suspect it does. Do you have any thoughts on that?

 

[Whit30]

Cool.
I'm curious about your Echo. I wonder if it handles as much like a Wildfire as I suspect it does. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Not familiar with many composite mnf boats so I had to look it up.
Only such boats Ive had experience with were a couple of local custom made wood strip/glass WW solo canoes used for slalom racing. 99% of my paddling has been in an old alum Grumman Ive owned since 1973, and rotomolded and Royalex boats. The Echo is my first T-Formax. I was looking for a little better tracking and secondary stability than my 12' Old Town Pack but still about the same weight cause Im an old man, so I chose the Echo in T-Formax Lite. We don't do much extended portaging down here and composite/glass/Kevlar boats arn't popular due to cost, durability, and maintenance. I did own a cheap heavy fiberglass "Florida" canoe for a while when I lived down at the Panhandle. Sold it when I moved back to North Alabama.

The Echo has 1" less depth in the middle and a little less rocker(1.75" vs Wildfires 2.5"). Same length, very similar tumblehome and max width, so should handle very similarly.

 

[Whit30]

I tried the cushion trick this morning. I think just mounting the seat directly to the gunnels is gonna work out just right!

 

[Whit30]

Just realized I spelled gunwales like I say it in my Alabama accent.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Just realized I spelled gunwales like I say it in my Alabama accent.

We'll allow that.

 

[Gamma1214]

Thread drift alert:

...like I say it in my Alabama accent.

I think everybody says "gunn-ells" despite the spelling. Is there anyplace that they say "gun-WHALES"?

 

[clemency]

Have been planning to put a footbar in my Echo, so thanks for the reminder to move that more to the front burner. Definitely a little tight under the seat for kneeling. Re: Wildfire/Echo comparison, I don't have firsthand knowledge (or much seat time at all in it yet) but the Happy Paddln' folks on youtube compare it favorably to a Yellowstone.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Thread drift alert:

I think everybody says "gunn-ells" despite the spelling. Is there anyplace that they say "gun-WHALES"?

I see it written that way all the time. But I say gunwales. Sometimes, I write gun'ls because I'm lazy.