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Paint stripper for Helmsman Oil Spar Urethane that is Epoxy Safe?

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Ugh. I thought I was done re-varnishing my cedar-strip/fiberglass/epoxy canoe but something has gone terribly wrong with Helmsman oil based spare urethane (always had no problem in the past)! It is peeling off! I'd like to use some kind of stripper on it that is safe for fiberglass/epoxy. If it makes a difference the epoxy is West 105/207.
 
I wish I could offer better advice about stripping off the failed urethane, but I have never had that happen. Maybe try something less aggressive first, like Citristripper, and progress to more harsh solvents and scrubbing/sanding if needed. Hopefully someone here will have a more learned recommendation.

I’m more curious about how and why the spar urethane failed, which may not be diagnosable. I am leery of possible amine blush when applying any top coat over epoxy, and exceedingly anal about prep work. I have eff’ed up a couple enamel paint topcoats that went crazed and lifted on epoxy

I am now so anal leery that I will wait weeks for the epoxy to fully outgas, then wash the boat, then wet sand lightly and rinse again.

And then, immediately before the topcoat goes on, alcohol (or acetone, depending) wipe the hull to remove any possible soap scum or shop contaminates that may have come to rest between the final washing and top coating.

There’s a lot of weird crap that goes on in the shop; melting wax, spraying silicone or Teflon. heck, its always sandy dusty in the shop, and occasionally smoky hazy. None of that stuff is good below a top coat. If you are working in the garage even car exhaust could be a contaminate.

Because I have nothing but time I lightly wet sand and hose rinse between occasional urethane coats. I’m not up to laying on Mem’s five coats a day, but I can manage one coat in the morning and one in the evening, wait ‘til the next afternoon (or day after), lightly wet sand and lather, rinse, repeat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HwcYEsXtdk
 
I am pretty sure I know what went wrong. I usually lightly sand between coats. I forgot to sand between the third and fourth coats.

The only new epoxy was a couple of patches. The whole surface peeled. Also, West 105/207 (what I used) is amine blush free.
 
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I've applied several coats in a row without sanding, never had that problem. Was it dry before you re-coated? Sanding is usually just so it will have something to hang on to, to prevent runs.
 
If you put a new coat of epoxy on, and it wasn't completely cured, the varnish will act funny. I know that from experience.
 
Is the epoxy in that canoe tinted or painted? Also, I'm sure you probably washed it first, but wondering if it was used in salt water?
 
Is the epoxy in that canoe tinted or painted? Also, I'm sure you probably washed it first, but wondering if it was used in salt water?

No tint or paint. And the epoxy (other than a couple small patches) is 4 years cured. Yes washed. Yes used in salt water about 3 years ago. Washed many times since.
 
Based on the response, I guess there must be no epoxy-safe stripper out there. More sanding in my future....
 
My apologies, I got so lost in trying to figure out the possible cause....When that same sort of thing happened to me, I started by trying paint thinner, which didn't do much. My problem was that the varnish wouldn't dry, which made it very difficult to sand off. I'm speculating that there may have been a problem in the calibrating pumps on the epoxy. I took a heat gun to it and heated it up pretty good. After about a week, things had dried up mostly, and like you say, it was more sanding. I wonder if you could try a small test piece with a furniture stripper like Circa 1850? I use that on old guns that I get where the old flaky varnish needs to come off. It's pretty thorough, although I'm not sure what it would do to fiberglass.
 
Sanding has been the only recourse in my experience !
my My very first canoe (Polyester resin) wouldn't hold varnish. It may very well have been the wax in the Poly, and the varnish was a hardware store variety. Yes It required a resanding! I feel your pain !

I too followed to see what others did !

I've never sanded between coats of Epoxy, not a good exercise ! If you apply according to directions, making sure you get a Chemical bond, there is no need to sand between coats !

Using West System, you probably used pumps ! There in maybe your problem? Especially if they Burped while filling mixing containers. Are there sticky or soft spots that didn't cure ? If not, your epoxy should be fine. I never use pumps to calibrate ! I use marked cups instead. That's Me !

Another possible cause? What did you wash the hull with before applying varnish ? Maybe a residue left behind from a soap ?

A non blushing epoxy, doesn't need washing . Sand, remove dust ( compressed air outside) and varnish. All I've ever done. No problems !

I think you are in for some sanding, but nothing too aggressive ! Maybe try Denatured Alcohol as a cleaner ! It will not leave a residue, and evaporates near instantly.

Good luck !

Jim
 
There is obviously confusion here. The canoe is 4 years old. There is nothing wrong with the epoxy. There was nothing wrong with the old varnish other than some scratches. I sanded lightly and applied 3 coats of varnish, sanding lightly between coats. The 4th coat of varnish was applied without sanding. I forgot. The varnish is now peeling like nobody’s business. Oh well, I guess I will use that old tried and true paint stripper: elbow grease and sandpaper.
 
There is obviously confusion here. The canoe is 4 years old. There is nothing wrong with the epoxy. There was nothing wrong with the old varnish other than some scratches. I sanded lightly and applied 3 coats of varnish, sanding lightly between coats. The 4th coat of varnish was applied without sanding. I forgot. The varnish is now peeling like nobody’s business. Oh well, I guess I will use that old tried and true paint stripper: elbow grease and sandpaper.

Alsg, I followed all of that. I don’t envy you the stripping and sanding. Random orbital with 220 and a foam buffer pad, or all hand sanding?

I use Spar Urethane on all kinds of things atop epoxy coats, including a couple of ancient clear coat glass/nylon hulls that got sanded and had a full coat of epoxy rolled/tipped, then cured, wet sanded, washed and then spar urethaned. Those boats are still going strong.

I am really curious about what went wrong. Something is incompatible somewhere. I don’t sand between every coat of spar urethane, sometimes not even between every other coat, and urethane coats are often morning and evening 6 hours apart. I do always wet sand before the best-job-I-can-manage final urethane coat gets rolled/tipped.

Helmsman Spar Urethane does recommend at least 4 hours dry time and light sanding between coats, but that between coats sanding hasn’t proven necessary for me, or six-coat-a-day Memaquay (used to be six-pack-a-day). Based on that experience I don’t think it was the sanding omission between coats 3 and 4.

Best guess is that there is some incompatibility or contaminate between the epoxy surface and the urethane.

I have not used 207 hardener. The pump for that hardener is calibrated at 3/1, not 5/1 like the 205 and 206 pumps. There is a noticeable size difference between the pump chambers.

Improperly mixed epoxy can cause all kinds of problems, including amine blush with too much hardener hot-pots, even with epoxy that “doesn’t” blush. Too little 207 hardener with a 5/1 ratio pump would be reluctant to set up properly.

How that would get over the whole hull, I dunno, I guess it would be possible to drag the contaminate along with the roller or brush. Maybe check your pumps/calibrations?

The bigger question is, once everything is sanded, will you use spar urethane again, or real varnish? What was the original top coat, urethane or varnish? It’s harder to go wrong applying the same stuff over the same stuff.
 
There is obviously confusion here. The canoe is 4 years old. There is nothing wrong with the epoxy. There was nothing wrong with the old varnish other than some scratches. I sanded lightly and applied 3 coats of varnish, sanding lightly between coats. The 4th coat of varnish was applied without sanding. I forgot. The varnish is now peeling like nobody’s business. Oh well, I guess I will use that old tried and true paint stripper: elbow grease and sandpaper.

I'm sorry for my confusion !

OK bonding trouble is between the old and new layers of varnish ?

Guessing ! As I've not had this trouble !!

Contamination of some sort. Did you use any solvent to clean the old varnish ?

Sea Water ? Could there have been contamination from that ? No Sea Water here in Iowa ! Just Nitrates from Hog Confinements !

Wishing you Luck, and please enlighten us as you try again !

Jim
 
Alsg, I followed all of that. I don’t envy you the stripping and sanding. Random orbital with 220 and a foam buffer pad, or all hand sanding?

Started with 220 on the RO. It was too light. I switched to 120 by hand and went down to 100, which seems about right. Because I am taking this all the way down to the fiberglass with a pretty aggressive grit, I am going to stick with hand sanding to keep control of things. I don't want to sand into the glass and end up making a bigger mess. Also, I'm sanding wet to keep the dust down and wet and RO don't mix.
The bigger question is, once everything is sanded, will you use spar urethane again, or real varnish? What was the original top coat, urethane or varnish? It’s harder to go wrong applying the same stuff over the same stuff.
It was originally coated with Helmsman spare urethane and I went with the same product. The original coats were still adhered pretty well to the epoxy (don't ask me how I know. :(). The more recent coats were not well bonded. All the varnish is off the bottom and the sides are rapidly getting there. So I will be working with a blank canvas. I still have an un-opened quart of the Helmsman, so I may go with it again, particularly since the original coats did well. On the other hand, I am feeling snake bit and may go with the Epifanes everyone likes.
 
I'm virtually done with my sanding so I'm not sure I am going to bother to use paint stripper, but this information may be useful to others in the future.

I spoke to a Technical Advisor at West Systems this morning and asked him whether there were any paint strippers that were safe to use to remove the spar urethane top coat from a West System epoxy/fiberglass covered cedar strip canoe. I specifically mentioned West 105/207 epoxy/hardner.

His response was that no paint stripper you can buy at the box stores will do anything to harm the epoxy. He mentioned there are industrial strength strippers that would take the epoxy off, but consumers generally can't get it and you would need full protective gear and breathing apparatus to use it.

I mentioned to him that some of the big box store paint strippers claim on their label to remove epoxy; he said nope, not if it is cured.

In sum, it seems paint stripper is safe to use to remove varnish from a fiberglass/epoxy covered canoe.
 
I think the hand sanding that you did is much preferable, results wise, to using a chemical stripper. I am not careful nor fussy about varnish and have had amazingly good luck so far. I often thin it with varsol to get better absorption and have been known to apply Epifanes over Helmsman to reduce costs. I have found that you can reduce the Epifanes with varsol to get a nice easy spreading base coat and make it go farther so it is the same cost as the cheaper brands. Final coat goes on full strength.

Could your issue have been temperature or moisture related in the time it was curing?

Christine
 
Could your issue have been temperature or moisture related in the time it was curing?

Christine

I was wondering about the temperature also !

My Wife and I roller painted the outside of our house. The West side was done with full Sun and temps in the uppers 80s F. The next day I noticed bubbles. Local painter confirmed our mistake. I scraped the bubbles, and sanded. Then repainted. I know it wasn't Spare Urethane ( Acrylic Latex)

So alsg ! What kind of conditions was the spar varnish applied at ?

Jim
 
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