Paddling advice for long, flat, skinny boats

[Chip]

I recently lucked into a Wenonah Advantage, a 16.5’ long, skinny-ish, solo canoe. With 0.5” rocker, it is nearly a flat-bottomed boat. This Advantage has a tractor seat. I’ve only paddled it twice, just enough to raise a few questions.

Leaning the Advantage has a different affect than leaning other canoes I’ve paddled. My canoes with more rocker will tend to carve in the direction of leaning. I believe this is due to the overall curved shape of the rockered bottom. The Advantage effectively is flat-bottomed, and when I lean, it turns away from the lean.

When paddling with J-stroke, I usually lean the boat to my paddle side. Since my rockered boat curves toward the leaned side, the force needed from the J part of the stroke is reduced, because the rockered bottom makes the boat want to go that way. If I lean the Advantage, it wants to turn away from the lean, increasing the force needed from the J to keep the boat going straight.

In shorter boats, steering strokes happen closer to the ends of the canoe. From the center of a 16.5’ boat, I can’t reach the ends of the boat. How does this affect paddling in longer canoes?

Another question is paddle choice. I used a 55” ZRE bent shaft and a 60” Shaw & Tenney beaver tail. The ZRE I used both sit and switch and J-stroking. While sit and switching, I was surprised to be switching sides every 5 strokes. I thought I’d get more than 5 strokes between “huts.” Is 5 normal? The beaver tail, heavier and longer, was impractical to sit and switch. With the beaver tail, I took fewer and longer strokes, but still seemed to move quickly. I found a comfortable method was to let the paddle trail in the water after the power part of the stroke, and then give a slight pry at the end. I think because the longer paddle was closer to the end of the boat, the effect of the pry was magnified. Also, while the paddle floated sternward, the weight of the paddle was supported by the water, giving me a moment to relax. I was surprised at the distance I could cover with far fewer strokes than when paddling with the ZRE. I might not have been going as fast.

I’d appreciate insight and advice you might share on how to paddle a long, flat, skinny boat.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Can't help much with that, Chip. But as I have a plan to grab an Advantage if I ever get the chance, I'm going to follow this thread.

My longest solo I've paddled is the 15.5' Solitude. It has a pretty round bottom with little or no rocker. I stay pretty centered and level unless I'm turning. Doesn't seem to matter much which way I lean the boat to turn, unless I'm turning up into current - and then I bury the downstream chine. I do have to reach farther for turning strokes than in the Wildfire or the Solo 14.

I've tried the ottertail (don't have a beavertail) in the Solitude, but it doesn't seem to fit. The ZRE works best for speed, but if I want a more relaxed pace the BB Viper is my choice. A heavier bent, but with a bigger blade.

The Moccasin is the same length with a narrower hull, but I haven't paddled it yet. It will be interesting to see if it feels different. I'll be interested to see what you think of that Advantage after you've padddled it a while.

 

[gumpus]

I'm primarily a kneeler but bought a used Advantage several years ago. I'm surprised at how much I've grown to love it.

Regarding turning a long straight boat I think your strokes have just about the same power in any boat since the center of rotation is around the middle of the boat and your leverage is based on how far you reach from the center of rotation. But the boat itself is stubborn to turn because the length increases it's inertia plus the lack of rocker means the ends are in the water so can't skid across the water like rockered ends. If you lean the boat enough to bury the bubble and lighten the ends it will spit you out like a cherry pit.

I've seen lots of posts saying zero rocker boats turn best when heeled to the offside and this seems to be true although I find an onside heel also helps. I have never J-stroked an Advantage, I always sit and switch and that's my main steering method. To me 5 strokes per side sounds normal.

 

[Erica]

I bought an advantage some years ago and sold it soon after. It was difficult to turn. Even worse, if the wind is coming broadside to the canoe, it immediately pushes the canoe in the direction of the wind. I was unable to control the boat.

I was told by the man I bought it from that it is mainly to go fast and straight. He used it just to out out and back with chard strokes for exercise.

 

[zehyani]

i have an advantage and absolutely love it. it seems very versatile and is a good fit for me. I tend to sit and switch, and every 3-7 strokes based on wind. I do not j or other stroke as it makes paddling less efficient for me.

you lean to the opposite side you want to turn.

If you have a sliding seat, you scoot up forward to make a sharp turn or pry. or lean back if you need to rudder. seems to work.

I tried a few other canoes before settling on the Advantage and enjoy it. it spends much of the summer riding on top of my car so it can be dropped into a body of water when able. I am biased but think it is a vastly under-rated canoe.

 

[yknpdlr]

Most of my solo canoes (Hornbeck, Swift Cruiser, PB Rapidfire and Shadow) , and larger craft will carve and respond best in a tight turn with an outside heel while paddling on the outside of the turn direction. But my new Savage River Blackwater, with its essentially zero rocker, doesn't seem to care which way I lean to make the turn effective. I can still carve a relatively tight buoy turn with it, regardless of heel direction. Builder Ben Diller told me it is meant to go straight and true, which it does quite well, no matter which way I heel while paddling straight ahead. I'm stil evaluating that.

My normal exercise/ solo training mode is to paddle quick strokes with a GRB carbon bent long distances (many minutes) on just one side or the other, using a combination of a minor "C", morphing into a pitch stroke, along with a rare occasional minor quick and instant "J" as may be needed for fine tuning directional aiming control. Though I do also enjoy paddling in recreational mode doing the same with a light straight cherry otter tail. I use my solo boats for race training when my geographically distant usual race partners and I are not able to meet up. Race rules for those smaller solo boats in the solo-rec class (<16') require use of a double blade paddle (ick), which I have done, but detest ever doing so in any canoe at any time. However, I do accept the double blade as a Hornbeck ultra-light evil necessity in return for ease of carry for visiting distant remote wilderness ponds.

Of course, racing in stock solo or multi seat canoes necessitates frequent efficient quick hut strokes. I do see that 5-8 stroke/side huts is common for many stock class (>=16') solo and C2 racers. Some even go as few as 4 strokes, which feel is sacrificing significant average power. As primarily a bow paddler, In a C4 I like at least 8-12 strokes or more on a side, depending on stern paddler and wind. From the bow, I do help with minor (sometimes major) correction inputs as needed. In our Yukon Voyageur canoe, we often would stay on one side for two full minutes, even when on a sprint, before a hut was needed.

 

[gumpus]

Chip, I forgot to add that a 55" ZRE is a super long paddle (shaft length is long). I'm 6 feet tall and use a 51". If your paddle is longer than necessary it's much more difficult to do vertical paddle strokes and you may end up doing a sweep stroke. A shorter paddle might give you more strokes per side since you can keep the shaft vertical and close to the boat.

 

[yknpdlr]

I’m also 6' and use a 50' or 51" bent GRB carbon, sometimes even a 49", choice depends on the particular boat and seat height. In a large Yukon River voyageur, I may use a 52". As primary bow paddler, my normal constant comfortable race cruise cadence for the team is about 60-65 spm power strokes, always a vertical shaft unless I am working a turn. When necessary to sprint past a competitor or fight a heavy current paddling upstream, or just to fight all day team boredom with intervals, my rate will go to around 80-85 spm

 

[Alan Gage]

I don't think I've ever paddled an Advantage but I have paddled plenty of similar hulls and it's usually my preferred hull style.

I generally don't lean unless I'm in tight quarters at slow speeds. Around 5 hit and switch strokes/side seems to be in the ballpark. Shorter strokes (not pulled back as far) can usually get a couple more.

Maneuvering usually isn't as simple as a quick bow draw or stern pry to spin it around. While you can still control the bow and stern separately it's more like turning a cruise ship than a whitewater canoe. It's best to look ahead and gradually adjust your course ahead of time. Back when I used to race and train heavily this was a fun game paddling upstream on the river. I'd see an eddy I could use (which would then need to be exited), a corner that needed to be cut, or an obstruction to squeeze through and I'd try to hit the spot perfectly without correction strokes and never breaking my cadence.

I agree with the others that a 55" bent shaft seems grossly long. I'm 6'1" and prefer a 49/50".

Like all hull types seat time will make a big difference. It will have it strong suits and weak points. You'll figure out how to exploit the good and deal with the bad.

Alan

 

[tketcham]

The Advantage was designed to go straight with efficiency, and using a J-stroke does not work all that well with that canoe. So you'll have to become comfortable with effective sit-and-switch strokes using a paddle properly sized for your upper body. As others have mentioned, that 55" bent-shaft paddle is much longer than most people use with a fast cruising solo. More likely a good length would be 48" to 50" but you'll have to experiment a bit to find what works best for you. Try borrowing a shorter paddle for reference if possible. Or you could buy a replacement grip from ZRE and cut the old grip off your paddle and use the new grip to try a recommended shorter length.

ZRE has this information on their web site:

How do I choose the right size paddle?​

Recreational Canoes​

The most accurate method off sizing paddle length removes leg length from the equation.

1. Sit in a chair and measure the distance from the chair seat to the bridge of your nose or eye level. This is the length of your shaft and grip.
2. Add the blade length of the paddle model you prefer to obtain overall paddle length.
3. Overall paddle length is measured in a straight line from the tip of the blade to the top of the grip.

Add 1.5 inch to overall length for C-1 paddles. (I tend to prefer shorter paddles so only add 1", or none.)

So for example, I measure 30" from chair seat to eye level and use a 49" ZRE Power surge Medium. (30" + 18" blade + 1.0" for C-1 = 49" paddle.) I also use a 49" ZRE Medium that has a 19" blade and find it works really well, too, even without the additional 1".

 

[Alan Gage]

Or you could buy a replacement grip from ZRE and cut the old grip off your paddle and use the new grip to try a recommended shorter length.

I've been able to easily remove and reuse the grips on three ZRE paddles by applying some heat with a heat gun. I had one that was very reluctant to release (but finally did) and one that was completely ruined (plastic grip that melted).

I cut the shaft shorter and use electrical tape to temporarily hold the grip for a couple test paddles before I decide to cut it shorter or glue it.

Alan

 

[PaddlingPika]

I've been able to easily remove and reuse the grips on three ZRE paddles by applying some heat with a heat gun. I had one that was very reluctant to release (but finally did) and one that was completely ruined (plastic grip that melted).

Any guidelines about how to tell how much heat to apply? Does the grip get too hot to hold without gloves when heating with the heat gun? I haven't quite gotten up the courage to try modifying my ZRE yet, but would like to try shortening it a little.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

On my plastic gripped Zavs, first I used a pipe cutter to cut the shaft 1.5" below the top. That got me under the grip interface. Then I used the Dremel with abrasive disc to cut two lengthwise slots in the shaft section on the grip. After that, it didn't take much heat for the two pieces to come off the grip. I reattached with plumber's goop so it would be easier to remove with just heat if I wanted to shorten it more (which on one of them, I did).

Of course, if you have the carbon fiber grip, just heat away until it comes loose (wear gloves).

 

[PaddlingPika]

Thanks. Mine has a carbon fiber grip so I guess I'll try carefully heating. I'm thinking of cutting it only 1" shorter to start and going in increments from there.

 

[Alan Gage]

Any guidelines about how to tell how much heat to apply? Does the grip get too hot to hold without gloves when heating with the heat gun?

The grip might have gotten hot on the really stubborn one, I can't remember for sure. But otherwise, no, as long as the heat is applied at the grip/shaft junction I haven't had to use any hand protection. Just keep twisting as you add heat until it comes free.

Alan