Mad River Sunrunner 1994

[mwaalen]

Hello fellow paddlers. My first post here and the main reason for joining. Recently picked this beauty up for a song and trying to find out more about it as I could locate only one post from the all-knowing google. Been trying to reach Mad River for at least a week with no luck. However waiting in their phone queue right now so maybe close to getting some answers?? If anyone has information, please share. Peace, Micah.

 

[snapper]

I'm not as well versed as some folks here are with Mad River canoes but on the whole, it looks like you have a nice canoe. Other than the crack in the wood gunwale near the stern end, everything looks fine. I'll be interested in what you find out when you get out of the phone queue.

That's al for now. Take care and until next time....be well.

snapper

 

[Guest]

Mad River Sunrunner

Manufactured from 1994 to 1997, in Kevlar (55 lbs), Fiberglass (67 lbs) and Kevlar PVC (44 lbs).

17 feet 2 inch long
33.5 inch gunwale width
12.5 inch deep center
Bow/stern 19.5, 18.5
1.75 inches of rocker
Shallow vee of course
1994 MSRP $1149 to $1999

Kind of like a stretched Malecite.

 

[mwaalen]

Thanks so much gents for your input. I did get some info from tech support in the form of a '94 catalog. Will look it over tonight & possibly post more if anything is notable. Micah.

 

[Guest]

The kevlar PVC version was sometimes billed as Kevlar H (for Hybrid). If the Hull Identification Number on the stern ends in a K it is kevlar, and a boat weight will tell you the rest.

BTW, that is as near pristine a 20+ year old canoe as I have seen, the previous owner obviously took good care of it.

 

[gumpus]

Hey Micah, I suggest that you put some oil on the cane seats immediately. If the boat has been sitting they are likely to be very dry and tear the first time you sit on them. The cane may well be original and 25 years old. You might invest in a can of Watco Teak Oil since you can also use it on the rest of the wood although your wood trim does not look desperate for attention. You can even use some kind of vegetable oil if you don't want to buy anything.

Another good and easy thing to do is to snug up all the fasteners on the boat. You'll be able to tell if they need it by how they feel.

 

[mwaalen]

Thanks again everyone for the information. As of yesterday I had convinced myself this was a kevlar boat judging by how the weight felt as I shouldered it a number of times and put it on the truck. Also not knowing exactly how the different fabrics looked. However in doing the best I could given two household scales, I am coming up with about 61 lbs. Given the information that the ID# of a kevlar boat should have a K also seems to point in the direction of fiberglass. This ID# is MADSR921C494. Darn...My search for a good deal on a tripping canoe continues. There have been some great deals recently but always a day late. Will probably get this thing detailed out and seaworthy this winter and sell it. In reality the thing is a bit too pretty for me to drag across beaver dams or portage through downfall. Or maybe following a test run in the spring I'll decide to keep it since it is so darned cool...???

Peace,
Micah

 

[BWCA66]

Thanks again everyone for the information. As of yesterday I had convinced myself this was a kevlar boat judging by how the weight felt as I shouldered it a number of times and put it on the truck. Also not knowing exactly how the different fabrics looked. However in doing the best I could given two household scales, I am coming up with about 61 lbs. Given the information that the ID# of a kevlar boat should have a K also seems to point in the direction of fiberglass. This ID# is MADSR921C494. Darn...My search for a good deal on a tripping canoe continues. There have been some great deals recently but always a day late. Will probably get this thing detailed out and seaworthy this winter and sell it. In reality the thing is a bit too pretty for me to drag across beaver dams or portage through downfall. Or maybe following a test run in the spring I'll decide to keep it since it is so darned cool...???

Peace,
Micah

Micah,
The serial number tells you this:
MAD - Coast guard code for Mad River
SR - Mad Rivers code for sunrunner.
921 - mad river can use these for whatever they want
C4 - built in March of 94
94 - model year, they run from 8/1 - 7/31

Don't know of any manufacturer who uses a k for kevlar. Only the SR921 is not strictly defined by the coast guard.

 

[Guest]

Don't know of any manufacturer who uses a k for kevlar. Only the SR921 is not strictly defined by the coast guard.

All of our kevlar Mad River canoes, a Monarch, a Malecite and an Explorer, have HINs ending in K.


All of those are from the early to mid 1990s. Mad River may have stopped appending the suffix K on kevlar hulls somewhere along the moves from VT to NC to SC.

At 61 lbs it falls in between the listed weights for kevlar and fiberglass models. If that weight is close to accurate (bathroom scales can be off by several pounds) I doubt it is the Kevlar Hybrid 44 pounder, and it would be odd for a glass boat to be 6 lbs lighter than spec (although I am not sure those deck plates are original).

Mad River actually made three versions of the Sunrunner in kevlar, which MRC lists as kevlar hybrid (KH), kevlar expedition (KE), Kevlar Light (KL)

 

[Guest]

Thanks again everyone for the information. As of yesterday I had convinced myself this was a kevlar boat judging by how the weight felt as I shouldered it a number of times and put it on the truck. Also not knowing exactly how the different fabrics looked. However in doing the best I could given two household scales, I am coming up with about 61 lbs. Given the information that the ID# of a kevlar boat should have a K also seems to point in the direction of fiberglass. This ID# is MADSR921C494. Darn...My search for a good deal on a tripping canoe continues. There have been some great deals recently but always a day late. Will probably get this thing detailed out and seaworthy this winter and sell it. In reality the thing is a bit too pretty for me to drag across beaver dams or portage through downfall. Or maybe following a test run in the spring I'll decide to keep it since it is so darned cool...???

Micah, I would guess the Sunrunner is a fiberglass boat. Mad River may not have always used the K for kevlar hulls, but it seems they (usually?) did so back in the Vermont days. If a manufacturer made both glass and kevlar versions of the same composite hull that K for kevlar might be important, particularly on the retailer side.

I am now wondering if MRC differentiated their Expedition, Hybrid and Lightweight kevlar layups with different KE, KH and KL hull ID numbers.

But, if you like paddling the Sunrunner (Mad River billed it as a modified cruiser) there is nothing wrong with a fiberglass canoe, especially a glass boat from Mad Rivers Vermont days; those were well made hulls. Your Sunrunner is Vermont built canoe; MRC did not move production to North Carolina until the early 2000s.

About dragging across beaver dams and downfalls, we have, and have had, some Vermont era glass hulls and they are seriously durable boats. Even the gel coat is tough.

Plus it is probably a bit of a rarity, which is always kinda Hey, what is that boat? cool.

BTW, I just answered the maybe not always used the K for kevlar on a HIN. I looked at the HIN plate on a 2003 (North Carolina build) kevlight Mad River; no K

 

[mwaalen]

Thanks again guys. Took some photos this AM but have yet to compare with the info shown in the '94 catalog provided to me by customer service. Someone here might know at a glance if this is glass as I too am suspecting. No doubt it is well made but being mid 40's forces me to consider weight. Much tougher than I was in my 20's but definitely not stronger. The shallowness also a bit of a concern as we really enjoy some of the bigger waters in Quetico. I will be sharing more this weekend on some of the other topics...Images of Quetico fires and my 10 lb camp kitchen...If I can find the photos of my brother's old Penob custom painted blue with ghost flames I will be sure to post.
koo

 

[BWCA66]

All of our kevlar Mad River canoes, a Monarch, a Malecite and an Explorer, have HINs ending in K.


All of those are from the early to mid 1990s. Mad River may have stopped appending the suffix K on kevlar hulls somewhere along the moves from VT to NC to SC.

Wonder if the coast guard caught up to them. A manufacturer only has leeway on digits 4-8 of a hin.

 

[Guest]

Mad River HIN discussion on C-boats:

https://www.cboats.net/cforum3/viewtopic.php?t=7969511

 

[BWCA66]

Mad River HIN discussion on C-boats:

https://www.cboats.net/cforum3/viewtopic.php?t=7969511

Yep, all HINs are supposed to end with a 2 digit year, been the rule since sometime in the 70's.

 

[Guest]

Yup, point being, as Pete explained:

The KA at the end does not count. That is an appendage. Mad River typically appended a K to the end of the HIN on their Kevlar boats. I do not know what the A represents. It might stand for an Airex foam core hybrid.

So at least back in the Vermont days Mad River did differentiate kevlar layups with specific suffixes added on to the end of the HIN.

 

[Guest]

I was curious about the various MRC listings for kevlar hybrid/PVC/Airex composite layups in the Sunrunner and other models and looked through some old catalogs for explanation.

From what I read those are all the same things by different names; Airex is Polyvinyl chloride (PVC), and that was the hybrid, incorporating an Airex football on the bottom, and possibly Airex ribs.

Hybrid or Airex sounds better than PVC, less like a hull built with plumbing pipe.

 

[mwaalen]

Glad I'm not the only one needing to dig into old documents to find answers. Admittedly the research is fun and probably speaks to the rarity of this canoe? The customer service guy is out for the next week so will need to wait a for some of the questions I had for him.

Just trying to decipher what wood the gunwales are was challenging as they don't look anything like ash to me. The yoke certainly looks like oak. But...the '94 Sunrunner were dark stained as standard prior to the finish coat of either Gunwale Guard or Watco exterior...T.B.D...

More of the wood confusion comes when documents speak of "hardwood seat trusses" but then in the following sentence mention "standard ash-framed seats". Another document states that only the gunnels need to be oiled (as apposed to varnish) as they flex but further reading suggests Gunwale Guard be used on carry handles, decks, and seat spacers. So their thinking was the cary handles and seat spacers flex but the seat frames and yoke don't?

This makes little sense to me. As I continue disassembling it I would bet money this thing has never had an ounce of effort spent on refinishing so am very certain it is original.

As of now my main questions are...1) Anyone know where I could get the polypropylene, molded end caps, touch-up gellcoat, or even new-old-stock contoured seats?? 2) Is there any potential problem with a very thin gap between the two-part gunwales on either side as resetting the screws does little to close the gap? 3) Anyone have leads on one of these in the kevlar 55 lb or lightweight 44 lb version?

I've attached 3 photos. Hope they come through.

Thanksomuch

 

[Guest]

Just trying to decipher what wood the gunwales are was challenging as they don't look anything like ash to me. The yoke certainly looks like oak. But...the '94 Sunrunner were dark stained as standard prior to the finish coat of either Gunwale Guard or Watco exterior.

One possibility, the previous owner may have replaced the gunwales, seats, yoke and/or other brightwork. Although if they DIYed the replacement gunwales they did a superb job with the rabbet joint.

The deck plates do not look like stock MRC stuff, but I have never seen a Sunrunner in person. Actually everything looks so near pristine, including the SS screw heads, that I wonder if it was not rebuilt at some point.

More of the wood confusion comes when documents speak of "hardwood seat trusses" but then in the following sentence mention "standard ash-framed seats".

I think of seat trusses as arched one piece drops on each side of the seat. Those are sturdier than peg style drops. Like these

http://www.edscanoe.com/seathanger.html

I do not recall those peg style hangers in our 1990s Mad Rivers, but I always replaced that style seat drop with full truss drops and do not recall exactly what was there. Those look an awful lot like Old Town hangers/left over pieces of radius edge gunwale stock. The seat drop wood especially looks suspiciously different from the seat frame itself

Another document states that only the gunnels need to be oiled (as apposed to varnish) as they flex but further reading suggests Gunwale Guard be used on carry handles, decks, and seat spacers. So their thinking was the cary handles and seat spacers flex but the seat frames and yoke don't?

MRC wood gunwales were usually oiled. The seat frames, carry handles, yoke and etc were varnished. I would oil the gunwales and varnish (or spar urethane) the rest.

1) Anyone know where I could get the polypropylene, molded end caps, touch-up gellcoat, or even new-old-stock contoured seats??

I would not put molded (plastic) end caps on a wood gunwaled canoe, it just looks odd. The easiest way to make a new deck plate is to make it oversized and top mount it so the V shape is as wide as the outwales.

Eds canoe carries contour seats and Mad River replacement parts

http://www.edscanoe.com/32contourseat.html

http://www.edscanoe.com/madricarepa.html

2) Is there any potential problem with a very thin gap between the two-part gunwales on either side as resetting the screws does little to close the gap?

I would not mess with or worry about that little gap. The wales are rabbeted to cover the top edge of the hull material, which is a really nice touch.

3) Anyone have leads on one of these in the kevlar 55 lb or lightweight 44 lb version?

I would not do much to it except oil the gunwales and replace those peg style seat drops with truss drops. Make certain the end of the carry handles, thwarts and yoke are well sealed (multiple coats of varnish or urethane). Oil the cane on the seats.

I have seen a lot of canoes, and a lot of Mad Rivers. I have never seen a Sunrunner in person. I do not recall seeing another Sunrunner for sale.

In spec the Sunrunner at 12.5 inches seems shallow as a tandem tripping canoe, excepting a small, lightly loaded pair. Probably a fine day cruiser though.

 

[mwaalen]

Thanks Mike
In looking at the '94 brochure it does show various canoes with the drop-peg hangers in the accessories photos etc. Couldn't imagine a DIYer fitting the seats in as perfect as they are as each drop peg is drilled/fitted as such that not all holes are precisely on center. In other words, custom-fit by a craftsperson. None of the holes through the gunwale have been re-drilled or reamed or nary a scratch. Also the hanger bolts are all bent just so as to make everything hang perfect & tight.

I have attached a photo of the '94 brochure accessory page showing the various thwarts & yokes with their ash portage yoke being the precise shape of the one I have. Mine looks like oak but I need to google some photos of stained ash to compare. Completely agreed that plastic end caps are hokey however very practical if this thing will be used as a tripper. Especially being a somewhat heavy boat when propping the nose on the ground to shoulder. That is, if I intend to do so. Time will tell. Thanks for the suggestion on the seat trusses and also the link to Ed's Canoe. I will go cyber shopping sometime soon. The seat hanger pegs do look different at first glance however I believe them to be the same wood as the seat frames, just not varnished, and the documentation seems to suggest this. On the underside of the bow deckplate is written the hull ID number so I would imagine these are original. They are just too perfect to have been replaced and this thing has had virtually no use. Good to know on the gunwale gap, I was leaning this direction myself as contemplating the possibility of filler didn't sit well.

I'm in complete agreement not to mess with anything that is not necessary; don't want the final product to look like a frankenstein cob-job. However I think it would keep its integrity with adding the one-piece seat hangers/trusses & possibly the end caps if they can be fastened without too many holes. The reason for disassembly was simply to get the fastener heads out of the way so I could best treat the gunwales without getting hung up on them. I should also mention that the first photos I shared were with the wood soaked down with water. When dry the gunnels and decks look no where near that good. Agreed on the shallowness concern and this has always been in the back of my mind. However the brochure states it has a 1,000 lb carrying capacity and speaks to it's stability when being loaded down with gear. However on my most recent trip my son and I were blowing through a big(ish) body of water (Russell Lake in Quetico) and I was very happy to have 14" of center depth in the one we were in.

 

[gumpus]

A few more comments since you seem to be having fun with the details Micah. I agree with your assessment that all the wood trim appears to be 100% stock. Regarding oil vs varnish it's personal preference...I prefer the look and feel of an oil finish but varnish is almost certainly the most durable option. The boat in the pic has an oil finish. Although some of your wood may look like oak it also looks exactly like oak stained ash. It's common to see a little separation between outwales and inhale on higher mileage boats, especially right where the loads from the seats are try to pull the gunwales apart like on yours. Just put a few extra coats of,oil or garnish in those areas.

I've bought quite a bit of stuff from Ed's and his stuff is top quality. You should be aware that Ed uses thicker stock than most manufacturers so you will almost surely end up adding some weight to the boat, especially adding two thicker seats. Just something to be aware of. When I put Ed's seats in two of my solos the increase of stiffness was noticeable and so was the weight, although mine were also walnut. Hemlock canoe also offers great seats and some have said the Conk contoured seat is the best.
http://www.hemlockcanoe.com/repair--replacement-parts.html

If you want to change seats and take weight out you could contact Swift canoe and have them quote adding two carbon fiber seats to your boat. You would have to meet up with a,Swift truck somewhere...twice. I almost did this on an older Blackhawk tandem but ended up deciding to keep mine factory stock. My Blackhawk (pic) also has seat drops similar to yours and they are also fitted nicely and so tight that I have no need to change them since the seating is rock solid.

Please check out the link below to a 17 foot Swift tandem. It shows the industry capacity at 1100 pounds and the efficient capacity at 350-600. Your boat does not want to carry 1000 pounds. Since your industry capacity is 10% below the Swift then I'd guess your efficient weight range is also a bit lower so it looks like you should limit your boat to about 550 for it to perform optimally.
http://www.swiftcanoe.com/keewaydin-17
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I also came across this Kevlar mad river sunsomething over the weekend. It looks to me like it would clean up pretty easily.
​​​​​​​https://madison.craigslist.org/boa/d/mad-river-canoe-sundance/6688007830.html