Looking for Wilderness River for Summer 2019

[Erica]

Thanks, everyone. I will research the suggestions.

Mike: I do like to take days off from tripping as long as I am far enough out that I don't have company. I also prefer my own equipment, for the same reasons you do. I can't see driving to Alaska though, unless I also invest and practice in a folding boat. Of course, God willing, there will be other summers. LIkewise, I do not like places where I have to move every day, nor pay or reserve for camping, etc. If that is the case, in addition to the crimping of my style, there are too many people. I made a concession last year for Verendrye, but that was just to see if I still had the ability. Now I am ready to go further. I also get it about the pick up date. Anytime I have gone into a real wilderness, there has always been someone to pull the plug if I don't show up and I have felt that pressure which does impair the flow of the trip. I have this SPOT now so maybe that would relieve things a bit.

Also Mike: We have looked at the Green before, but it did seem to have a lot of people on it. Is there a season when there are fewer people?

Christine, what area are you in. I have done some paddling and drop rivers before, with the short portages around the drops. Might be a possibility. I remember one time looking downstream and not only did the river disappear, but I could only see the tops of the pine trees below the line.

Yellowcanoe, I have read some trip reports and books of travel on the Yukon and there seems to be a lot of river traffic, including motorize boats, as well as cabins, etc. along the way.

Thanks again to all, I will be researching.

 

[Erica]

Trip report with pics of first part of trip.
http://www.canoetripping.net/forums...5-gchs-outers-springtrip-2016-marshall-to-kap

Memaquay, now I know who you are. In one of these threads Robin identifies you as Haslam, who I have followed for years on another forum. I have so respected all the work you do with those kids.

 

[VernAK]

I always worry, though, YC. I saw a video taken by a tourist at the lookout of a tandem canoe going through. No spray cover. Very heavily loaded. Not very good strokes. They made it pretty easily. But, I still worry. Water levels do certainly make a difference. One can, apparently get out to walk down the shore to scout. We also plan to drive our van to Dawson before the trip, and take the bus back to Whitehorse where our canoe and gear will be in Canotrouge's back yard. We can scout on the way up.

If you look at those youtube videos of Five Finger Rapids, you'll notice that by starting on far right and paddling across current toward left side above the stacks, you can avoid the roughest water.
Of course this can vary with water levels but last time I went through with my freight canoe, the stacks were big......maybe 4' to 5' and didn't look inviting even to my big canoe.

 

[PaddlingPitt]

Four to five feet is darn big, I wouldn't like that. Do you remember if you were at high or low water levels?

 

[Black_Fly]

Some fine lakes in WCPP, but some have private cabins and motorboats, some burned up last year. I think the Berens system is about the same, not much in the way of rapids. That road from Winnipeg may have jabbed a hole in my bucket list as far as the Bloodvein goes. That's OK, I can't find my copy of Hap's book that I've had for 10 years. Refuse to buy another.

 

[yellowcanoe]

The Yukon is a working river
There is gold mining continuing
It is a Native fishery
Cabins? Sure. Lots of history. most are caving in
No people? no
Few people yes
Cottagers no
recreational use is most all canoeing
We did see a Native family using a fish wheel which they explained to us
We did get a tour of Spirit houses from another Native
In 500 miles seeong a few people dod mot ruin our experience
Au contraire it enriched it
Its far more remote tham La Verendrye

 

[alsg]

Put in at Lobster Trip and if you can endure 1 2 mile portage meet the Allagash River Waterway at Chamberlain

How it is only a 2 mile portage. When I measure on google maps from the nearest point on Chesuncook to Chamberlain Bridge, it looks like at least 7.75 miles to me.

 

[yellowcanoe]

How it is only a 2 mile portage. When I measure on google maps from the nearest point on Chesuncook to Chamberlain Bridge, it looks like at least 7.75 miles to me.

Chesuncook Umbazooksus Mud Pond Carry

 

[VernAK]

Four to five feet is darn big, I wouldn't like that. Do you remember if you were at high or low water levels?

Water levels seemed high but not extreme. The stacks were easy to avoid but were definitely not something you want to try in tripping canoe. If you search youtube, you'll find a couple videos where folks ended up in the water.

 

[Robin]

Hap Wilsons's book "Rivers of the Upper Ottawa Valley" ($10 on Abe books now) has some nice rivers in it, Kipawa, Noire, and the Coulonge. I paddled the Noire a while back and liked it, but it has it's share of rapids as do all of these. Haps book made it easy to portage them.

There's a guy on the Noire who runs shuttles (Michael Iforgothisname)) and he can run you right up to LaVerendrye Reserve where you can start your Noire or Coulonge trip at one of the lakes in the park. This was 13 years ago, you would need to search, maybe MYCCR. Noire is 270 km, 10-12 days, Colounge is 250 km from Lac Barrage 12-14 days

He told me there are no fees on these rivers if you use his shuttle, not sure if that is still in effect.

I paddled around the Kipawa area too, and had plans to someday start the Kipawa at Hunters Point and finish at the bottom of the Dumoine at the Ottawa River, never happened.

 

[Guest]

LIkewise, I do not like places where I have to move every day, nor pay or reserve for camping, etc. If that is the case, in addition to the crimping of my style, there are too many people.

Also Mike: We have looked at the Green before, but it did seem to have a lot of people on it. Is there a season when there are fewer people?

Yellowcanoe, I have read some trip reports and books of travel on the Yukon and there seems to be a lot of river traffic, including motorize boats, as well as cabins, etc. along the way.

I have never tripped anywhere so remote that I encountered no other people for the entirety, but I have had trips where I saw very, very few other folks. Those trips were not especially remote, or at times even that wildernessy, instead they were off season trips, winter trips on (unfrozen) tidal waters or trips where I selected obscure/hidden out of the way campsites specifically to be left alone.

You will probably encounter other people on the WB Penobscot or Allagash. Depending on recent rains I’m not sure about August water levels on the Allagash.

On the Green you would start the trip with a dozen other paddlers sharing a van and trailer load of boats & gear, and end it the same way (if you take out at Mineral Bottom) or sharing a jet-boat upriver with 20 others (if you take out on the Colorado).

I saw a boat or two almost every day while paddling the Green, and had other campers at the better known, more spectacular campsites that had room for multiple parties. I also had some smaller sites entirely to myself. From a site in the back of a side canyon any paddling parties on the river are out of sight, so there is some measure aloneness to be had.

I am sure there are seasons when the Green is far less popular than in springtime; late fall/very early spring, when it would be dang cold, or mid-summer when it would be baking hot. Having both sun baked and been sleeted on Green River trips in May neither of those alternatives would be my choice.

Any of those times might have substantially lower flows as well.

Ruby Ranch to Mineral Bottom through Labyrinth Canyon is BLM land, with fewer permit restrictions or shuttle complications. Mineral Bottom to the Colorado through Stillwater is in Canyonlands Nat’l Park and requires a jet-boat ride out; only so many permits are issued each day.

That number of Canyonlands permits is determined by how many people the shuttle services (Texs or Tagalong) are dropping off/picking up on that day; they are not driving a van and trailer for hours with one or two people, nor taking even the smaller jetboat down the Colorado to pick up just a couple people.

For Canyonlands the NPS permit is only issued after you have made/paid shuttle drop off and pick up reservations, so the shuttle availability is the limiting factor.

For Green River seasonal advice and typical number of NPS permits issued Texs Riverways would be the folks to ask. I expect in the off-seasons they do not run shuttles every day, which would further limit the number of people on the river.

http://www.texsriverways.com/

The other shuttle service is Tagalong, who do a little bit of everything from shuttles to jeep tours to SUP trips. I’d go with Texs, who do one thing very, very well.

https://tagalong.com/

The ideal river would have
good current, but minimal white water
deep wilderness - no other people
minimal portages

That may be like the conundrum “You can have it good, fast or cheap, pick any two”

 

[Will Derness]

The other shuttle service is Tagalong, who do a little bit of everything from shuttles to jeep tours to SUP trips. I’d go with Texs, who do one thing very, very well.

https://tagalong.com/[/URL[/QUOTE] ...kend I've never experienced it being crowded.

 

[Guest]

Pretty sure Tagalong no longer does jet boat shuttles from the confluence of the Green and Colorado so Tex may be the only shuttle option at the confluence

Good to know, not that I would use Tagalong unless desired shuttle dates necessary.

As of last year Tex’s was looking for a buyer to take over their operation, and I don’t know where that stands, they may be under new owners.

Another suggestion for you is the Potomac river in Maryland from below Cumberland to Hancock. 50 miles from Oldtown to Hancock. Would not give you 12 days of padddling unless you are really slow, but it does have the virtue of being in a fairly remote mountain setting, public lands on river left the whole way, and only Class I ledges to deal with where you find the breach in ledge and have a straight run through the drop. You are likely to see other paddlers on the trip but unless you are out on a major holiday weekend I've never experienced it being crowded.

I would do that Paw Paw Bends trip again, but only off-season. There is some interesting canal history, locks and tunnels and old abandoned RR trestles along the way. River left is (almost) all C&O Canal Nat’l Historic Park lands. River right however is in WVA, and publically owned, and the occasional summer cabin shacks, single-wides and old school bus camps were visually unappealing, and even on river left the C&O Canal Towpath Hike & Bike trail offers the in-season promise of company at the established sites.

https://www.nps.gov/choh/index.htm

Still, Paw Paw Bends is a fun, historically-laden couple of days, with shuttle services available, and could break up a drive north from Florida.

 

[Black_Fly]

I'm looking in Ontario. Considering the Berens, Spanish, French, or some river farther north. Problem is likely time. Maybe a September trip, June or early July if I can swing it. I know I can fly in to the Berens system, but that's a pricey deal.

In my fantasy world, I take the summer off and travel across Canada canoeing rivers and finish on the Big Salmon river.

 

[recped]

The Spanish is very nice in Late September or early October (great colour), I've paddled it a couple of times in the Fall, I don't recall seeing any other paddlers. I was there a few years ago at the end of August, only met one canoe which I passed and never saw again. The same would be true for early June (although the bugs!!!!!).

I've done a lot of paddling in Ontario and Quebec over the years, other than July and August it's rare to see anyone on any of these river trips. Places like Algonquin, Killarney etc. are different, they are overflowing throughout the season (although the shoulder periods are not so busy).

I paddled the Bloodvein in 2015, started on July 31st, one canoe passed by on Artery Lake, I met one Scout group along the way and another camp group on the last day. Although the East Side Highway makes access to the Bloodvein, Pigeon & Berens much easier all those rivers are still fly-in or long overland routes, the highway will bring a few more people but it's still not an easy drive in/out so usage will always be limited.

 

[Black_Fly]

Roads have a way of getting improved as commercial activity demands. Don't plan on it "always being limited." Civilization follows access, and access follows demand.

 

[frozentripper]

Question for Mr. Recped... IIRC you paddled the Albany, Ontario's largest river at some time in the past, about 1000 kms worth. The last 400 km or so from Limestone Rapids down to Fort Albany require no porting at all again IIRC, except maybe some lining in low water. Would you say this would be a good choice wrt the OP... I haven't seen any of the Albany, although I have seen the Abitibi and Moose also draining into the James Bay lowlands and those would probably not be suitable for scenery and low midsummer levels could be a problem. Further upstream on the Albany, there are probably a lot of ports and rapids, since it's rougher shield landscape.

I found some info on the lower Albany from an old Northern Ontario Canoe Routes booklet the Dept of Lands and Forest published during the sixties, green cover. Access from Hwy 11 and a side road to the Kaninakagami river, then to the Albany.... "there is good fishing for pickerel, pike and brook trout"... at least there was during the 60s.

 

[BWCA66]

Roads have a way of getting improved as commercial activity demands. Don't plan on it "always being limited." Civilization follows access, and access follows demand.

Don't disagree with your statement but the demand isn't growing for a true wilderness experience. Even the "most visited" wilderness in the US, the BWCA, is seeing steady decline in use. The Forrest service dropped the permit lottery because the demand was not there anymore. You always see the BWCA has over 250,000 visitors a year but the real data shows well under 200,000 with an ever growing number of those day users.
Lord willing, in May I will extend my BWCA streak to 54 years and I can tell you permits are easier to get than 30 years ago, getting away from people is easier if you're willing to work a bit and avoid the peak season and the fishing is still good.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Roads have a way of getting improved as commercial activity demands. Don't plan on it "always being limited." Civilization follows access, and access follows demand.

Not true on the classic Maine Rivers
When the Allagash was designated a wilderness waterway everyone wanted to come
70000 annual visitors was too many
Now 50 years later visitation is down 80 percent

 

[PaddlingPitt]

Question for Mr. Recped... IIRC you paddled the Albany, Ontario's largest river at some time in the past, about 1000 kms worth. .

I believe that dougd has been down the Albany River, a long time ago.